S/O, why is it unacceptable to be against homosexuality?

[Anonymous]

A nice African-American couple came to my door this weekend asking me to oppose MD's gay marriage law because the Bible says gay is bad. You know what? The Bible also condones slavery, I told them. Nothing in the Bible prohibits slavery and much of the Bible could be read to support the enslavement on the basis of race alone. Believe that, if you want. The Bible also says you should stone to death anyone with a tattoo, anyone who eats bacon, anyone who works on Sunday. Go ahead, believe whatever you want. Just keep it to yourself or in your church.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

What did they say in response?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you are religious, say ultra Catholic, or Mormon, or any other deeply religious person, who is to say that their beliefs are wrong?
These people say that they have read the Bible and in the end, their decision is final...no support of homosexuality.
The Pope is not going to change on this issue. The Amish still have the same opinion. The list goes on. We all know that these families have gay children like anyone else, but at the end of the day, to them it is wrong.

I will agree that no one has the right to discriminate, say offensive things, or give haircuts, but they are entitled to their beliefs and their vote.

These arguments remind me of a woman at a day care center where I worked (co-op). She disciplined a child for a racist remark, telling the child that the comment was "wrong". I asked her in the future to tell the child that that kind of behavior would not be tolerated at such and such facility. There is a difference. I am not into the business of telling anyone or their family how to think. It is more about what they DO that matters.

Yes, having a clean heart matters too, but it is not my right to reach into the inner workings of individuals, families, and their religions to confront them on these issues.

You can be against homosexuality - I don't care what you believe. I do care when you seek to impose your beliefs on others. If you don't like homosexuality, then don't be homosexual. Don't go around telling other people they can't be homosexual. But "boo-hoo," you say, "that just means that if you want to fuck children, I should shut up about that too, and we all know that's wrong." No, that is not an similar situation - children are not capable of giving consent - it's a medical fact that young brains do not have the ability to make competent judgments all the time. No one is advocating pedophilia, bestiality, necrophilia, cult-dictated polygamy, or any other non-consensual relationship - these are all, in essence, forms of rape. But what two rational adults consent to do in the bedroom is no one else's business. There is no moral relativism whatsoever.

As for gay marriage - you don't want to marry gays in your church, then don't. Gay marriage laws do not force churches to marry gay people. The laws force state governments to give the same legal rights to gay couples as to straight couples.

A nice African-American couple came to my door this weekend asking me to oppose MD's gay marriage law because the Bible says gay is bad. You know what? The Bible also condones slavery, I told them. Nothing in the Bible prohibits slavery and much of the Bible could be read to support the enslavement on the basis of race alone. Believe that, if you want. The Bible also says you should stone to death anyone with a tattoo, anyone who eats bacon, anyone who works on Sunday. Go ahead, believe whatever you want. Just keep it to yourself or in your church.

YOU GAYS?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you are religious, say ultra Catholic, or Mormon, or any other deeply religious person, who is to say that their beliefs are wrong?
These people say that they have read the Bible and in the end, their decision is final...no support of homosexuality.
The Pope is not going to change on this issue. The Amish still have the same opinion. The list goes on. We all know that these families have gay children like anyone else, but at the end of the day, to them it is wrong.

I will agree that no one has the right to discriminate, say offensive things, or give haircuts, but they are entitled to their beliefs and their vote.

These arguments remind me of a woman at a day care center where I worked (co-op). She disciplined a child for a racist remark, telling the child that the comment was "wrong". I asked her in the future to tell the child that that kind of behavior would not be tolerated at such and such facility. There is a difference. I am not into the business of telling anyone or their family how to think. It is more about what they DO that matters.

Yes, having a clean heart matters too, but it is not my right to reach into the inner workings of individuals, families, and their religions to confront them on these issues.

why couldn't you say a couple, rather than a black couple.

You can be against homosexuality - I don't care what you believe. I do care when you seek to impose your beliefs on others. If you don't like homosexuality, then don't be homosexual. Don't go around telling other people they can't be homosexual. But "boo-hoo," you say, "that just means that if you want to fuck children, I should shut up about that too, and we all know that's wrong." No, that is not an similar situation - children are not capable of giving consent - it's a medical fact that young brains do not have the ability to make competent judgments all the time. No one is advocating pedophilia, bestiality, necrophilia, cult-dictated polygamy, or any other non-consensual relationship - these are all, in essence, forms of rape. But what two rational adults consent to do in the bedroom is no one else's business. There is no moral relativism whatsoever.

As for gay marriage - you don't want to marry gays in your church, then don't. Gay marriage laws do not force churches to marry gay people. The laws force state governments to give the same legal rights to gay couples as to straight couples.

A nice African-American couple came to my door this weekend asking me to oppose MD's gay marriage law because the Bible says gay is bad. You know what? The Bible also condones slavery, I told them. Nothing in the Bible prohibits slavery and much of the Bible could be read to support the enslavement on the basis of race alone. Believe that, if you want. The Bible also says you should stone to death anyone with a tattoo, anyone who eats bacon, anyone who works on Sunday. Go ahead, believe whatever you want. Just keep it to yourself or in your church.

[Anonymous]

my thoughts briefly:

#1, I don't think you are born predisposed to be gay or straight.

#2, I think a lot of it is choice/culture.

#3, If not for our judea-christian background, gays would be a lot higher than 5-10%.

#4, There are advantages to societies in keeping the gay population somewhat low (where they are now or lower).

#5, If we allow gay marriage, homosexuality will get more and more accepted, and I think the percentage of gays will go higher and higher.

[Anonymous]

As for gay marriage - you don't want to marry gays in your church, then don't. Gay marriage laws do not force churches to marry gay people. The laws force state governments to give the same legal rights to gay couples as to straight couples.

this is not 100% accurate. one of the biggest fears of religious institutions is that they will be forced to perform a same sex marriage in their houses of worship.

the new york law had to be revised to include language that no church/etc would be forced to do this when the law passed. maryland faced a similar situation last year when the same sex marriage bill failed the first time.

essentially you can have a gay couple enter a church, ask to be married and when refused, sue that church for discrimination. while i doubt someone would go those lengths, there is nothing in the law providing protection in the event it happens.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:my thoughts briefly:

#1, I don't think you are born predisposed to be gay or straight.

#2, I think a lot of it is choice/culture.
#3, If not for our judea-christian background, gays would be a lot higher than 5-10%.

#4, There are advantages to societies in keeping the gay population somewhat low (where they are now or lower).

#5, If we allow gay marriage, homosexuality will get more and more accepted, and I think the percentage of gays will go higher and higher.

Really? So tonight, you could make a decision to become gay? Just like that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:my thoughts briefly:

#1, I don't think you are born predisposed to be gay or straight.

#2, I think a lot of it is choice/culture.

#3, If not for our judea-christian background, gays would be a lot higher than 5-10%.

#4, There are advantages to societies in keeping the gay population somewhat low (where they are now or lower).

#5, If we allow gay marriage, homosexuality will get more and more accepted, and I think the percentage of gays will go higher and higher.

this is total hogwash and im not gay.

why would i choose to be gay knowing im putting myself in a situation where im likely to get teased, made fun or, harassed, and even killed for this "choice"? there is no real "benefit" from saying you are gay. you dont get tax breaks, a free meal at denny's, or a hi-five from co-workers cause you are homosexual. that being the case, why choose such a lifestyle thats more likely going to cause you strain and pain more than benefits?

while i will agree that some people choose to experiment being gay as some sort of growing phase (and im not just talking lesbians), the overall majority of gay people dont wake up and say to themselves "i need more adventure in my life. maybe ill turn homo and endure some hell for a few years and turn that gay off when ive had enough"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

As for gay marriage - you don't want to marry gays in your church, then don't. Gay marriage laws do not force churches to marry gay people. The laws force state governments to give the same legal rights to gay couples as to straight couples.

this is not 100% accurate. one of the biggest fears of religious institutions is that they will be forced to perform a same sex marriage in their houses of worship.

the new york law had to be revised to include language that no church/etc would be forced to do this when the law passed. maryland faced a similar situation last year when the same sex marriage bill failed the first time.

essentially you can have a gay couple enter a church, ask to be married and when refused, sue that church for discrimination. while i doubt someone would go those lengths, there is nothing in the law providing protection in the event it happens.

Yes, they are touting those fears. But no, they're not real fears. There's never been a better definition of a straw man.

"If the government recognizes that gay couples are entitled to the same civil protections as straight couples, then my God! Next week, my poor, misunderstood , persecuted Catholic church will be forced to perform gay marriage ceremonies! They'll be playing Gloria Gaynor on the organ! Dancing to YMCA in the choir box! Pretty soon, there will be sodomy taking place on Church property!

Wait . . . "

[Anonymous]

1214 must be Tony Perkins who believes parents teach their kids to be gay cause what better example do you have about homosexuality than your own parents who know more about being gay than anyone. i mean they did marry each other and create you no? oh wait..............

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

As for gay marriage - you don't want to marry gays in your church, then don't. Gay marriage laws do not force churches to marry gay people. The laws force state governments to give the same legal rights to gay couples as to straight couples.

this is not 100% accurate. one of the biggest fears of religious institutions is that they will be forced to perform a same sex marriage in their houses of worship.

the new york law had to be revised to include language that no church/etc would be forced to do this when the law passed. maryland faced a similar situation last year when the same sex marriage bill failed the first time.

essentially you can have a gay couple enter a church, ask to be married and when refused, sue that church for discrimination. while i doubt someone would go those lengths, there is nothing in the law providing protection in the event it happens.

Yes, they are touting those fears. But no, they're not real fears. There's never been a better definition of a straw man.

"If the government recognizes that gay couples are entitled to the same civil protections as straight couples, then my God! Next week, my poor, misunderstood , persecuted Catholic church will be forced to perform gay marriage ceremonies! They'll be playing Gloria Gaynor on the organ! Dancing to YMCA in the choir box! Pretty soon, there will be sodomy taking place on Church property!

Wait . . . "

i admitted that the fear is unfounded but technically, it can happen where a same sex couple may want to make a point and "force" a place to marry them.

again, the fear is so real, new york had to include provisions to ensure that it wouldnt happen

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:my thoughts briefly:

#1, I don't think you are born predisposed to be gay or straight.

#2, I think a lot of it is choice/culture.

#3, If not for our judea-christian background, gays would be a lot higher than 5-10%.

#4, There are advantages to societies in keeping the gay population somewhat low (where they are now or lower).

#5, If we allow gay marriage, homosexuality will get more and more accepted, and I think the percentage of gays will go higher and higher.

this is total hogwash and im not gay.

why would i choose to be gay knowing im putting myself in a situation where im likely to get teased, made fun or, harassed, and even killed for this "choice"? there is no real "benefit" from saying you are gay. you dont get tax breaks, a free meal at denny's, or a hi-five from co-workers cause you are homosexual. that being the case, why choose such a lifestyle thats more likely going to cause you strain and pain more than benefits?

while i will agree that some people choose to experiment being gay as some sort of growing phase (and im not just talking lesbians), the overall majority of gay people dont wake up and say to themselves "i need more adventure in my life. maybe ill turn homo and endure some hell for a few years and turn that gay off when ive had enough"

yeah, I think it is trendy now to be gay in some circles. and by choice, I am including cultural acceptance. societies where gayness is tolerated have much higher prevalence. Look at ancient greek or even modern afghanistan. I'm sure there are some on either extreme of the spectrum that could never be gay or straight, but for most of us, I think it is a sliding scale. I could totally be gay tomorrow. Why not? A hole is a hole, a mouth is a mouth. I don't get the big deal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

As for gay marriage - you don't want to marry gays in your church, then don't. Gay marriage laws do not force churches to marry gay people. The laws force state governments to give the same legal rights to gay couples as to straight couples.

this is not 100% accurate. one of the biggest fears of religious institutions is that they will be forced to perform a same sex marriage in their houses of worship.

the new york law had to be revised to include language that no church/etc would be forced to do this when the law passed. maryland faced a similar situation last year when the same sex marriage bill failed the first time.

essentially you can have a gay couple enter a church, ask to be married and when refused, sue that church for discrimination. while i doubt someone would go those lengths, there is nothing in the law providing protection in the event it happens.

"You can have a gay couple enter a church, ask to be married and when refused, sue that church for discrimination" - that is 100% false. Also, the language was put into the NY and MD laws to reassure people, but churches are already allowed to discriminate. That's the law.

[Anonymous]

i admitted that the fear is unfounded but technically, it can happen where a same sex couple may want to make a point and "force" a place to marry them.

again, the fear is so real, new york had to include provisions to ensure that it wouldnt happen

So in your considered legal opinion, a gay couple who sued to force a religious organization to marry them would have a meritorious case?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you are religious, say ultra Catholic, or Mormon, or any other deeply religious person, who is to say that their beliefs are wrong?
These people say that they have read the Bible and in the end, their decision is final...no support of homosexuality.
The Pope is not going to change on this issue. The Amish still have the same opinion. The list goes on. We all know that these families have gay children like anyone else, but at the end of the day, to them it is wrong.

I will agree that no one has the right to discriminate, say offensive things, or give haircuts, but they are entitled to their beliefs and their vote.

These arguments remind me of a woman at a day care center where I worked (co-op). She disciplined a child for a racist remark, telling the child that the comment was "wrong". I asked her in the future to tell the child that that kind of behavior would not be tolerated at such and such facility. There is a difference. I am not into the business of telling anyone or their family how to think. It is more about what they DO that matters.

Yes, having a clean heart matters too, but it is not my right to reach into the inner workings of individuals, families, and their religions to confront them on these issues.

why couldn't you say a couple, rather than a black couple.

You can be against homosexuality - I don't care what you believe. I do care when you seek to impose your beliefs on others. If you don't like homosexuality, then don't be homosexual. Don't go around telling other people they can't be homosexual. But "boo-hoo," you say, "that just means that if you want to fuck children, I should shut up about that too, and we all know that's wrong." No, that is not an similar situation - children are not capable of giving consent - it's a medical fact that young brains do not have the ability to make competent judgments all the time. No one is advocating pedophilia, bestiality, necrophilia, cult-dictated polygamy, or any other non-consensual relationship - these are all, in essence, forms of rape. But what two rational adults consent to do in the bedroom is no one else's business. There is no moral relativism whatsoever.

As for gay marriage - you don't want to marry gays in your church, then don't. Gay marriage laws do not force churches to marry gay people. The laws force state governments to give the same legal rights to gay couples as to straight couples.

A nice African-American couple came to my door this weekend asking me to oppose MD's gay marriage law because the Bible says gay is bad. You know what? The Bible also condones slavery, I told them. Nothing in the Bible prohibits slavery and much of the Bible could be read to support the enslavement on the basis of race alone. Believe that, if you want. The Bible also says you should stone to death anyone with a tattoo, anyone who eats bacon, anyone who works on Sunday. Go ahead, believe whatever you want. Just keep it to yourself or in your church.

I said African-American couple because I thought it was very interesting that, especially in MD, it is a long-subjugated minority group that is seeking to prohibit another long-subjugated minority group from having equal rights. Black slaves were not allowed to legally married either.

[Anonymous]

yeah, I think it is trendy now to be gay in some circles. and by choice, I am including cultural acceptance. societies where gayness is tolerated have much higher prevalence. Look at ancient greek or even modern afghanistan. I'm sure there are some on either extreme of the spectrum that could never be gay or straight, but for most of us, I think it is a sliding scale. I could totally be gay tomorrow. Why not? A hole is a hole, a mouth is a mouth. I don't get the big deal.

If that's really how you feel about it, I have news for you, my friend. You don't have to wrestle with being gay tomorrow - you're gay (or at least bi) now.