2008 College Placement for "Elite" DC Area Private Schools?

[Anonymous]

The instate tuition offer for DC residents is a big draw to public schools. Also, Wisconsin has some terrific programs including a topnotch history department. Lastly, it's supposedly an awesome place to live.

[Anonymous]

Indeed, UW is one of the top undergraduate experiences in the country. Several top programs, a great party atmosphere, top sports in a rah rah way, and a great place to get away from DC and experience a different part of the country.

Yes, I am a UW Alum....

[Anonymous]

UW is strong (look it up) and Madison is awesome. Sometimes I fantasize about moving to Madison -- never lived there -- because it is the perfect small city. Small liberal city I should say.

I would be thrilled if DS wanted to attend Wisconsin-Madison someday.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thanks for posting that, the analysis is very interesting. I can't speak for his methodology, but better than "I heard...".

Yes, it is an interesting study to read but doesn't have enough data to be used in making a decision. There are two big methodological problems:

The sample size is way too small relative to how noisy the data is. The results could easily be driven by randomness in outcomes. You can see that by how big the standard deviation is relative to the mean of the observations. So, while it is true that the public school results seem comparable to that of private schools, a statistician would not be able to reject the proposition that private school results are better than public school results, or the opposite, that the public school results are better. In other words, there is too little data to tell. In published education studies they use samples of hundreds or thousands of observations and the often use information on family income and educational attainments of parents to cut down the statistical noise, and they still argue about the interpretation. Here we don't have even that.

Also, the numbers are run as if the choice of public or private school for these kids is random --- as if the kids/families are basically identical except that some happen to go to public school and some to private school. If that's not true it is hard to interpret the results. Suppose, for example that kids who are doing well at public school continue, while kids who are not a good fit look for a private alternative. Then a comparison of the college placements of the two groups tells you little about the relative values of public v. private education. An analogy would be that some folks can safely repair their roofs themselves, while others shouldn't even attempt it, and mostly don't. Then, knowing that very few people who do repair their own roofs break their necks doesn't mean that I should try to do it.

So, the bottom line: no definitive evidence based on the numbers. So, we will all have to rely on our intuition.

[Anonymous]

This thread is finally sounding like loving parents are in charge. I have a big concern that parents goals for their kids have nothing to do with who their kids are. Success looks different for each individual child. The phases of life that need to be respected as a child grows up are at risk of being ignored with all the "elite" seeking behavior. It's a long weekend. Let's all spend time with our kids doing noncompetitive things with them and LISTEN to them and get to know THEM. Maybe we could initiate a conversation about what this holiday is about, Memorial Day (how healthy that conversation could be for those of us that disagree with this war).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:UW is strong (look it up) and Madison is awesome. Sometimes I fantasize about moving to Madison -- never lived there -- because it is the perfect small city. Small liberal city I should say.

I would be thrilled if DS wanted to attend Wisconsin-Madison someday.

Based on all our reactions, I'm wondering now if the parents are making the kids go. I'd love to visit my kid at Madison!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thanks for posting that, the analysis is very interesting. I can't speak for his methodology, but better than "I heard...".

Yes, it is an interesting study to read but doesn't have enough data to be used in making a decision. There are two big methodological problems:

The sample size is way too small relative to how noisy the data is. The results could easily be driven by randomness in outcomes. You can see that by how big the standard deviation is relative to the mean of the observations. So, while it is true that the public school results seem comparable to that of private schools, a statistician would not be able to reject the proposition that private school results are better than public school results, or the opposite, that the public school results are better. In other words, there is too little data to tell. In published education studies they use samples of hundreds or thousands of observations and the often use information on family income and educational attainments of parents to cut down the statistical noise, and they still argue about the interpretation. Here we don't have even that.

Also, the numbers are run as if the choice of public or private school for these kids is random --- as if the kids/families are basically identical except that some happen to go to public school and some to private school. If that's not true it is hard to interpret the results. Suppose, for example that kids who are doing well at public school continue, while kids who are not a good fit look for a private alternative. Then a comparison of the college placements of the two groups tells you little about the relative values of public v. private education. An analogy would be that some folks can safely repair their roofs themselves, while others shouldn't even attempt it, and mostly don't. Then, knowing that very few people who do repair their own roofs break their necks doesn't mean that I should try to do it.

So, the bottom line: no definitive evidence based on the numbers. So, we will all have to rely on our intuition.

Excellent analysis! And a good point about the use of quantitative data as well as the weaknesses of the research design. I have one quibble and that's the use of the word "intuition." A careful systematic review of the available qualitative data is far from intuition! Triangulate! Triangulate!

[Anonymous]

Triangulate....ugh.....oh if it was that simple. Yes, take all information available into consideration when making a decision. Information gives us choices. Let's make sure those choices that are appropriate for each individual child and not the parents. We don't have to have all the answers about our preschoolers futures now. They are people defining who they are and where they fit in. It's not all about us....or is it??!! Are we listening or flapping our key boards?

[Anonymous]

Children go on pure intuition. Let's focus in on them before the world retards the process!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Way to go Wilson! That list ranks up there with any of the private schools around here. But I wonder what percentage of their students (a) graduate, and (b) go on to college? The dilemna is that many kids do very well at Wilson. But those kids often come from families where education is a priority and they'd do well anywhere. Also, most middle and upper-middle class black families won't send their kids there, and so the result is almost two separate schools: a high-achieving, largely white group of students, and lower-income, lower achieving African American and Hispanic students. As a parent of African American children, I felt like my children would have a hard time fitting in, and opted for private. Most of my friends took the same route.

Why don't they send their kids to Wilson ? I am black myself and wondering if I should send my DS and DD there or go private, although we'd have lots of problems paying the tuition...

[Anonymous]

No doubt some of these parents are sending their kids to Banneker rather than Wilson.

[Anonymous]

I'm African American and the reason I won't send my kids to Deal/Wilson is because I feel that the schools have lower expectations for black kids, especially boys. It's almost like there are schools within the schools, and I just felt like my kids wouldn't fit in, especially after coming from a small, diverse, nurturing DC public school. I've talked to friends who tried it for their kids and pulled them out, and I've also talked to people who went there. If I didn't have any choice, I'd make the best of it, but fortunately I do have a choice (although we'd love to use the money for our retirement!), and I can't justify sending my kids there when I know I could do better for them.

[Anonymous]

That makes sense, pp. I'm white and my kid got into the Humanities and Arts magnet program at Wilson. At the orientation, I noticed how very white the student body was and I felt very uneasy about the kind of dynamic this "school within a school" sets up. Fortunately she got into another magnet school which didn't have those kind of divisions.

Magnet schools are better when everyone has had to apply to get in (e.g., School without Walls, Ellington, or Banneker) so white students are not separated out from black students.

[Anonymous]

I'm amazed that someone could feel that the "list is not that impressive"... I went to a "good" public in the south and probably only 50% went to college, then of that 50% probably 95% went to state public schools (none of which are really nationally regarded all that well). I was the only one to go to a "national" private in my whole class of over 300... and it's one of those that has been criticized by this thread. I tell ya, this town is crazy...

[Anonymous]

I am a little confused by the assertion that upper/upper-middle class African Americans won't send their kids to Wilson. Will they send them to Banneker?

Furthermore, why won't the same upper/upper-middle class whites who have no problems with a public school (Wilson) overwhelmingly reject magnet school Banneker? Isn't Banneker in fact the more competitive school?