Advice Needed: NOVA Credits vs Reaching for MIT / Ivies / Georgia Tech / Purdue / Vanderbilt / Top Schools

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op can your kid drop some of these de classes and replace ap classes.

+1000 This is the best advice for OP. Good that DC had some DE under their belt. But moving forward focus 100% on AP, DE is only useful if used [b]on top of a full load AP exams (as opposed as AP substitute or 50-50 DE-AP)[/b]

+1

OP there are a number of different posters who are all saying similar. Please listen. Some of us work in this field. We see it every year with disappointed parents who do not understand why their kid did not get in to VT, UVA despite high scores. Top public colleges know the high schools in the state and they care about various course tracks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What’s the point of even offering DE if colleges don’t look at it the same? Especially if those same colleges accept community college transfer students? How is that any different?

Probably for the kids from schools with very limited AP course offerings?

yes. DE is only ok when there is no AP equivalent.
Top colleges that accept CC transfers do it to get help expand diversity on campus because CC transfers are higher likely to be: very rural or very urban, URM without specifically looking at URM, FGLI, veterans.
For anyone applying from above average to top publics or privates that offer AP, DE is a big mistake. Our kid's public magnet pointedly steers the middle of the pack students to DE calc instead of AP. The DE track never gets in to UVA and most do not get into VT. In state.

Our FCPS HS counselors tell all the students DE and AP are considered equivalent by colleges. Why do they lie?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why is he taking English and gov at CC? Top schools prefer AP unless it’s a situation where CC is the only or most advanced option available.

All of the schools listed are super reaches for a not nearly 4.0 GPA other than Virginia Tech and Texas A&M.

+1

GPA for the district mentioned is not likely to be close to top 10%, add the missed APs and it is a NO. The 1590 adds in a negative way because it indicates the student could have taken the highest-rigor courses the high school offers but chose not to. Red flag.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op can your kid drop some of these de classes and replace ap classes.

+1000 This is the best advice for OP. Good that DC had some DE under their belt. But moving forward focus 100% on AP, DE is only useful if used [b]on top of a full load AP exams (as opposed as AP substitute or 50-50 DE-AP)[/b]

+1

OP there are a number of different posters who are all saying similar. Please listen. Some of us work in this field. We see it every year with disappointed parents who do not understand why their kid did not get in to VT, UVA despite high scores. Top public colleges know the high schools in the state and they care about various course tracks.

My DD will be attending UVA. She took mostly AP but took DE Gov due to a scheduling conflict with AP Gov.

Also wanted to add that at the UVA prospective student info session last year, a parent asked if UVA had a preference for DE vs AP and got a resounding “no it does not make a difference.” Just thought that was interesting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What’s the point of even offering DE if colleges don’t look at it the same? Especially if those same colleges accept community college transfer students? How is that any different?

Probably for the kids from schools with very limited AP course offerings?

yes. DE is only ok when there is no AP equivalent.
Top colleges that accept CC transfers do it to get help expand diversity on campus because CC transfers are higher likely to be: very rural or very urban, URM without specifically looking at URM, FGLI, veterans.
For anyone applying from above average to top publics or privates that offer AP, DE is a big mistake. Our kid's public magnet pointedly steers the middle of the pack students to DE calc instead of AP. The DE track never gets in to UVA and most do not get into VT. In state.

Our FCPS HS counselors tell all the students DE and AP are considered equivalent by colleges. Why do they lie?

Because they cannot tell the truth or all parents will demand AP. They put AP pass rate in their school profile sent to colleges, the goal is to keep it high so colleges continue to think highly of the education. They have to keep less qualified students out thus they push DE.
They definitely push the best students into the AP track, and within those, push the hardest APs on those who can handle it. The tracks have become the only way colleges can differentiate among all the A grades in all tracks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op can your kid drop some of these de classes and replace ap classes.

+1000 This is the best advice for OP. Good that DC had some DE under their belt. But moving forward focus 100% on AP, DE is only useful if used [b]on top of a full load AP exams (as opposed as AP substitute or 50-50 DE-AP)[/b]

+1

OP there are a number of different posters who are all saying similar. Please listen. Some of us work in this field. We see it every year with disappointed parents who do not understand why their kid did not get in to VT, UVA despite high scores. Top public colleges know the high schools in the state and they care about various course tracks.

My DD will be attending UVA. She took mostly AP but took DE Gov due to a scheduling conflict with AP Gov.

Also wanted to add that at the UVA prospective student info session last year, a parent asked if UVA had a preference for DE vs AP and got a resounding “no it does not make a difference.” Just thought that was interesting.

Again they have to say that. especially in some regions of virginia where there is no AP option, DE is the top option.
True scheduling conflicts are not a problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What’s the point of even offering DE if colleges don’t look at it the same? Especially if those same colleges accept community college transfer students? How is that any different?

Probably for the kids from schools with very limited AP course offerings?

yes. DE is only ok when there is no AP equivalent.
Top colleges that accept CC transfers do it to get help expand diversity on campus because CC transfers are higher likely to be: very rural or very urban, URM without specifically looking at URM, FGLI, veterans.
For anyone applying from above average to top publics or privates that offer AP, DE is a big mistake. Our kid's public magnet pointedly steers the middle of the pack students to DE calc instead of AP. The DE track never gets in to UVA and most do not get into VT. In state.

Our FCPS HS counselors tell all the students DE and AP are considered equivalent by colleges. Why do they lie?

This may well be true for mid-tier or lower-ranking colleges.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Looking for advice from parents/students with real experience.
My child is a Virginia student with:
1595 SAT
3.8 unweighted GPA
Very rigorous schedule
Strong coding background since childhood
Interested in advanced math, computer science, engineering, and eventually Wall Street algorithm / trading / math driven careers

NOVA direct and dual enrollment courses completed or in progress:
Calc I, II, III
Linear Algebra
Differential Equations
Discrete Structures
Computer Organization
English / History / Gov

We are considering:
MIT
Princeton / Cornell
Carnegie Mellon
Georgia Tech
Purdue
Vanderbilt
Michigan
Texas Austin
Texas A&M
UVA
Virginia Tech

Some are reaches, but I feel he should aim high.

His biggest concern is making sure NOVA credits transfer so he does not retake courses. Virginia schools seem safest for that, but I worry he is overvaluing guaranteed transfer credit.

He is also not very into the liberal reputation of UVA, though maybe that matters less in math / CS / engineering.

Questions:
Has anyone had NOVA credits transfer to these schools?
Do advanced math credits transfer as real credit or just placement?
Do CS courses transfer?
Is prioritizing transfer credit a mistake if stronger schools are options?
If this were your child, stay in Virginia or aim higher?

If your student wants math/engineering with the best track to quant /Wall street you need Harvard, Penn, MIT, Princeton, CMU, UCB, Stanford, Columbia, Cornell to be a top target. Next group includes the less-techy ivies (B, Y, D) as well as Northwestern, Duke, GT and on down to partial targets like UVA, Vanderbilt. Below that top trading is not happening unless he goes to grad school at one of the target schools.

With a 3.8 uw in Virginia he is out of range to have a shot at the top, and even UVA.
The choice to take DE vs AP lowers his chances further but the 3.8uw is the main hurdle.
DE DiffEQ, Linear, etc are no where near as hard at CC or at average public 4yr college as they are at the wall street target schools. He should have easily been able to ace those DE courses if he has the math goods to get into quant.

Mine took DE math in high school at a regional 4yr college not a CC, because they finished BC cal early and there was no more math to take. They attend one of the top target schools. The curriculum of vector cal, Linear, etc covered double the material compared to the DE version and the problems were much harder. They got A's anyway. The joke on campus was how much material was new despite taking their DE version. Same with the equivalent of BC cal, it was another level above the AP version, for those that took it by choice or because they did not place out despite having taken BC and gotten a 5. Mine placed out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just so you have reasonable expectations. All the following below on your list you should consider reaches especially for these Publics if you are OOS especially for CS or Engineering. The SAT score is common among many applications at these schools and the GPA is honestly a bit low for these schools. Just go into this with your eyes wide open and make sure you have some targets and safeties. None of the below are either. Trust me most of the below schools were on are list as well. Tough admits.

MIT
Princeton / Cornell
Carnegie Mellon
Georgia Tech
Vanderbilt
Michigan
Texas Austin
UVA

UVA is in-state

UVA won’t take a kid that is avoiding AP classes. I would bet money this kid gets rejected from UVA.

That is not really an accurate description.

He is not avoiding AP classes.

His transcript includes approximately 10 AP courses across math, computer science, physics, economics, history, and science.

He also has approximately 6 dual enrollment courses in general education and computer science areas such as English, history/government, and technical subjects.

On top of that, he has approximately 5 regular NOVA college math courses beyond the normal AP level, including advanced calculus progression, linear algebra, and differential equations.

So overall, that is roughly:

10 AP courses
6 DE courses
5 additional NOVA college courses

If his school offers AP Chem, APPhysics 1 or C or both, AP Bio, AP English literature, APUSH, AP Foreign language and he either took nothing similar or took a DE version of them then he did indeed avoid APs.

[Anonymous]

What are the AP exam scores? Does the kid have four years of language? These things can make a difference too.

Don’t Bucknell and Fairfield also have good reps for access to Wall Street? Maybe Holy Cross? Couod maybe get merit money with the high SAT.

[Anonymous]

Pilot’s license? IYKYK

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op can your kid drop some of these de classes and replace ap classes.

+1000 This is the best advice for OP. Good that DC had some DE under their belt. But moving forward focus 100% on AP, DE is only useful if used [b]on top of a full load AP exams (as opposed as AP substitute or 50-50 DE-AP)[/b]

+1

OP there are a number of different posters who are all saying similar. Please listen. Some of us work in this field. We see it every year with disappointed parents who do not understand why their kid did not get in to VT, UVA despite high scores. Top public colleges know the high schools in the state and they care about various course tracks.

My DD will be attending UVA. She took mostly AP but took DE Gov due to a scheduling conflict with AP Gov.

Also wanted to add that at the UVA prospective student info session last year, a parent asked if UVA had a preference for DE vs AP and got a resounding “no it does not make a difference.” Just thought that was interesting.

I gather from this board that in NOVA schools DE is an easier version of the same AP classes. I don’t think that holds true in all geographies. The AO might want to ensure kids from other areas aren’t getting a very NOVA specific response.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Looking for advice from parents/students with real experience.
My child is a Virginia student with:
1595 SAT
3.8 unweighted GPA
Very rigorous schedule
Strong coding background since childhood
Interested in advanced math, computer science, engineering, and eventually Wall Street algorithm / trading / math driven careers

NOVA direct and dual enrollment courses completed or in progress:
Calc I, II, III
Linear Algebra
Differential Equations
Discrete Structures
Computer Organization
English / History / Gov

We are considering:
MIT
Princeton / Cornell
Carnegie Mellon
Georgia Tech
Purdue
Vanderbilt
Michigan
Texas Austin
Texas A&M
UVA
Virginia Tech

Some are reaches, but I feel he should aim high.

His biggest concern is making sure NOVA credits transfer so he does not retake courses. Virginia schools seem safest for that, but I worry he is overvaluing guaranteed transfer credit.

He is also not very into the liberal reputation of UVA, though maybe that matters less in math / CS / engineering.

Questions:
Has anyone had NOVA credits transfer to these schools?
Do advanced math credits transfer as real credit or just placement?
Do CS courses transfer?
Is prioritizing transfer credit a mistake if stronger schools are options?
If this were your child, stay in Virginia or aim higher?

If your student wants math/engineering with the best track to quant /Wall street you need Harvard, Penn, MIT, Princeton, CMU, UCB, Stanford, Columbia, Cornell to be a top target. Next group includes the less-techy ivies (B, Y, D) as well as Northwestern, Duke, GT and on down to partial targets like UVA, Vanderbilt. Below that top trading is not happening unless he goes to grad school at one of the target schools.

With a 3.8 uw in Virginia he is out of range to have a shot at the top, and even UVA.
The choice to take DE vs AP lowers his chances further but the 3.8uw is the main hurdle.
DE DiffEQ, Linear, etc are no where near as hard at CC or at average public 4yr college as they are at the wall street target schools. He should have easily been able to ace those DE courses if he has the math goods to get into quant.

Mine took DE math in high school at a regional 4yr college not a CC, because they finished BC cal early and there was no more math to take. They attend one of the top target schools. The curriculum of vector cal, Linear, etc covered double the material compared to the DE version and the problems were much harder. They got A's anyway. The joke on campus was how much material was new despite taking their DE version. Same with the equivalent of BC cal, it was another level above the AP version, for those that took it by choice or because they did not place out despite having taken BC and gotten a 5. Mine placed out.

How did it compare to the MIT OCW courses?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Looking for advice from parents/students with real experience.
My child is a Virginia student with:
1595 SAT
3.8 unweighted GPA
Very rigorous schedule
Strong coding background since childhood
Interested in advanced math, computer science, engineering, and eventually Wall Street algorithm / trading / math driven careers

NOVA direct and dual enrollment courses completed or in progress:
Calc I, II, III
Linear Algebra
Differential Equations
Discrete Structures
Computer Organization
English / History / Gov

We are considering:
MIT
Princeton / Cornell
Carnegie Mellon
Georgia Tech
Purdue
Vanderbilt
Michigan
Texas Austin
Texas A&M
UVA
Virginia Tech

Some are reaches, but I feel he should aim high.

His biggest concern is making sure NOVA credits transfer so he does not retake courses. Virginia schools seem safest for that, but I worry he is overvaluing guaranteed transfer credit.

He is also not very into the liberal reputation of UVA, though maybe that matters less in math / CS / engineering.

Questions:
Has anyone had NOVA credits transfer to these schools?
Do advanced math credits transfer as real credit or just placement?
Do CS courses transfer?
Is prioritizing transfer credit a mistake if stronger schools are options?
If this were your child, stay in Virginia or aim higher?

By liberal reputation, do you mean politically liberal or "liberal arts" liberal?
Many strong schools either have credit by exam options (UIUC, CWRU) or proof-based versions of multi/linalg/diffeq (UWisc, UMD)
He should use transferology to check transfer credit.
CS credit is less likely to transfer, IME.
If you can pay OOS, consider the BMath degree in CS at Waterloo, with a different math major as a backup. If he gets admitted, he can get transfer credit via Athabasca university (I think they offer credit by exam for some of their math/CS courses, but check if they do and if those courses transfer to a useful Waterloo course).
Also consider applying to Imperial JMC or CS and either Oxford or Cambridge

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Elite schools barely take APs, much less DE.

+1. DC is in a private T-20. Throw away 2 years worth of DE (even advanced classes consistent with current college major). AP given credit up to 15 units and useful for placement, e.g. BC Calc (score 5) can skip calc 1 and calc 2, start with calc 3. Harvard and a few other tippy top schools no longer give AP credit, just placement advantage.

A placement advantage may be all OP's kid wants.