Unreasonable teachers

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Instead of complaining about it on DCUM, here is what you need to do:

Email the school (AP over that department). All classes that are the same, regardless of teacher, are supposed to have the same syllabus and policies - IE: All APUSH classes have the same syllabus and policies. Those teachers of that course meet at least once every week to discuss pacing, make tests, align grading, etc. These are called Curriculum Team meetings. For classes with essays, all teachers are using the same rubric and then meet to "norm" essays, which means they get together and align what a "A" paper looks like, a "C" paper looks like, etc. This is done so that one teacher isn't grading an essay as an A and another gives it a C.

This is FCPS policy and is expected to be done in every school. When you contact the AP, ask about how often CT's are meeting to norm essays, create end of unit tests, etc.

- An FCPS teacher of 24 years

OP here. I appreciate this very much and it’s very informative and helpful to us. Thanks for sharing. However, can I please say I wouldn’t have known any of that without DCUM? 😉. No, but joking aside I really do appreciate that feedback!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s tough when teachers use AP multiple choice questions and base their grade on the percentage correct. In order to get a 5 you don’t need to get 90% correct.

So for example APUSH, 60-65 percent will have you most likely passing with a 3 on the actual AP Test. 70 percent is 4 territory. 80 percent will get you a 5. It is really rare to get 100% on any AP test. But if teachers give tests from released questions they have access to and use a traditional grading scales, students find getting A’s challenging.

I do this. But then I curve grades. In my AP course a 50% in may is generally a 3 on the exam, so I curve test scores so that 50% becomes a C-, 65% becomes a B-, and an 80% becomes an A-. That is a smidge tougher than college board's scoring (it's pretty close to 50 (3)/60 (4)/ 75 (5) in reality) but I figure my unit tests on a small chunk of limited standards are easier than the test in May with a year's worth of material and a much longer block of time.

The reality is that at the beginning of the year kids don't perform at a "5" level. I am grading on an AP rubric, giving timely feedback, lots of practice, lots of opportunities to clarify, but it takes a couple of units to understand the AP way of responding to FRQs. By November/December I've got them trained and I usually suggest saving retakes on FRQs until then. It's built in spiral review to study for unit 1/2/3 in December, and the content will feel easier at that point anyway.

By May, my gradebook will be 80% As and Bs, 15% Cs, and 1 or 2 Ds. Right now, with 1 test on the books, it's 30% Ds and I have a couple of Fs. Some will drop when they realize the class is hard, but most will rise to the challenge and improve.

Obviously some of my colleagues are lazy (sorry), but some of us are legitimately training your children to perform at a higher level and they just aren't there yet.

If that’s your process then why not be transparent to parents and more importantly, the students about it? It just causes unnecessary anxiety and stress. I think sometimes students just need to understand that they’ll be ok if they keep putting in the work.

To be clear, my DC doesn’t find the material particularly difficult and does know it well. If it were a multiple choice test for example, they’d have 100%. It’s just they don’t understand the subjective grading that dings them for really small things. Meanwhile their peers are breezing thru the same class with other teachers and a fraction of the work.

This teacher seems transparent, probably not the one OP is referring to.

OP here. I appreciate this teacher’s perspective, we just haven’t received that level of transparency and coupled with other AP teachers not being so harsh on the grading, it is easily misunderstood by students. Thus the mad rush by students requesting to switch out or drop down. This was not even brought up at BTSN so why would any of us know what’s standard AP grading practice and not? Is it truly a style of grading that’s recommended by the AP Board or a preference of the teacher? Why then aren’t all the teachers following protocol? I appreciate the openness of the teachers on here but am left wondering if that’s truly the case for my DS’s class.

I think many teachers are in their own echo chamber and do not realize the impact of their style has on their students. When an equivalent class with another teacher does not do this, it begs the question why would a harsh teacher choose to do this. I think transparency from the start would go a long way in calming students stress levels and foster better relations between parents and teachers to help kids. Just be honest and transparent in your system and let students know why you choose to be tough grader vs. the teacher of the same class that chooses a more reasonable path.

Tough grader could equal the good grader. Reasonable could equal lenient with no standards.

Not sure I follow. At the end of the day, the tough grader’s grade will be stacked up against the reasonable grader’s grade on a college app and the kid who worked harder and maybe learned more will look worse on paper. Our AP teacher needs to strike that balance otherwise they are doing a disservice to hard working kids for no reason other than they think they are being tough for the right reasons. You’re just screwing them over

Honestly, teachers do not care if they are unfairly giving your kid an advantage or disadvantage! They see wealthy Asian or white kids and they do not give one hoot which ones goes to T10, T30 or T50. If they are younger they probably went to a third tier state school and barely kept a 3.0 average. They resent the high score grinders and kids killing themselves to get into top schools.

And here’s why I don’t like these threads. OP has a question that can’t actually be answered here. Logically, OP already knows to reach out to the school.

So all this did was open up an opportunity for posters to slam teachers, as if there isn’t enough of that on this site.

And the bad teachers don’t care. They really don’t. The good teachers will take nonsense like the post above personally.

And the good teachers are the ones we should be trying to keep right now. Trust me when I say many of them are already looking for an exit from the profession. Why give more reasons?

How dramatic. Good teacher’s aren’t leaving because someone on DCUM criticizes them. If they’re truly taking an anonymous internet board personally then looking for the exit is a good idea.

Are you a teacher, or just someone who feels comfortable speaking for us?

When you are barraged with negativity ALL THE TIME, it starts to weigh on you. Want to help the good teachers? Stop criticizing all teachers for the perceived actions of one.

And I don’t think you should continue calling for our exit. Who do you think is coming to replace us? Education departments aren’t graduating many teachers these days. Career changers often don’t last.

Unemployment rates are rising among college graduates and plenty will take cast iron job security and significant off time. Recent graduates can teach even without coming from an “education department” and many will be better off for it.

— Sibling of an excellent teacher with a PhD that isn’t in education, who thinks the general state of teaching is very problematic and has more resilience than to get “weighed down” by other parents realizing it .

In the PP. I’m glad your sibling is an excellent teacher. Many of us are.

And some of us are teaching through our planning periods because colleagues already quit. Yes, your sibling is correct: teaching is in ruins. Yet DCUM will find ways to pile more on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's truly amazing - DCUM constantly complains about grade inflation and how no one can stand out because everyone gets an A. DCUM constantly reminds us that "Cs get degrees" is a saying because people used to actually get Cs.

But the minute a teacher actually hands out Cs, DCUM complains that the teacher is grading students on their actual performance and has high standards.

Maybe it’s not the same posters making the different points?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's truly amazing - DCUM constantly complains about grade inflation and how no one can stand out because everyone gets an A. DCUM constantly reminds us that "Cs get degrees" is a saying because people used to actually get Cs.

But the minute a teacher actually hands out Cs, DCUM complains that the teacher is grading students on their actual performance and has high standards.

For the millionth time -- ITS ABOUT CONSISTENCY!!!

No one is saying that some kids don't deserver a C or worse. We are saying have it consistent across classes that teach the same material. Why is that hard for you to understand? You resort to the "DCUM parents are so vile" and can not actually debate the merits of having common consistency from one teacher to the next.

It is very consistent at my school. We all use the exact same rubrics (that college board creates, since we are utilizing old AP questions for tests). Any tests that we are unsure of how to score (rare, the rubrics are generally quite clear) we bring to CT meetings to discuss. FWIW, this is exactly how AP exams will be scored too.

Could it be that this is happening behind the scenes and you aren't aware?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's truly amazing - DCUM constantly complains about grade inflation and how no one can stand out because everyone gets an A. DCUM constantly reminds us that "Cs get degrees" is a saying because people used to actually get Cs.

But the minute a teacher actually hands out Cs, DCUM complains that the teacher is grading students on their actual performance and has high standards.

For the millionth time -- ITS ABOUT CONSISTENCY!!!

No one is saying that some kids don't deserver a C or worse. We are saying have it consistent across classes that teach the same material. Why is that hard for you to understand? You resort to the "DCUM parents are so vile" and can not actually debate the merits of having common consistency from one teacher to the next.

What I can’t figure out is why when the FCPS grading website says consistency is so important and the School Board says it is too, why is it so hard to implement same grading in same departments? It’s not even asking same grading across all departments in a school, just if 2 teachers in same school teaching English 11-can have different styles, personalities, etc, but don’t have 1 teacher gives 3 question quizzes after reading a book that can attempt multiple times and the other teacher has mandatory essays that grade on 8 point scale so unless perfect don’t get 8/8 and students told 7/8 is great but in gradebook is 87.5%.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's truly amazing - DCUM constantly complains about grade inflation and how no one can stand out because everyone gets an A. DCUM constantly reminds us that "Cs get degrees" is a saying because people used to actually get Cs.

But the minute a teacher actually hands out Cs, DCUM complains that the teacher is grading students on their actual performance and has high standards.

For the millionth time -- ITS ABOUT CONSISTENCY!!!

No one is saying that some kids don't deserver a C or worse. We are saying have it consistent across classes that teach the same material. Why is that hard for you to understand? You resort to the "DCUM parents are so vile" and can not actually debate the merits of having common consistency from one teacher to the next.

What I can’t figure out is why when the FCPS grading website says consistency is so important and the School Board says it is too, why is it so hard to implement same grading in same departments? It’s not even asking same grading across all departments in a school, just if 2 teachers in same school teaching English 11-can have different styles, personalities, etc, but don’t have 1 teacher gives 3 question quizzes after reading a book that can attempt multiple times and the other teacher has mandatory essays that grade on 8 point scale so unless perfect don’t get 8/8 and students told 7/8 is great but in gradebook is 87.5%.

We are required to give the same summative assessments in our classes. My team chooses to give the same formative assessments as well, but that has not been mandated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's truly amazing - DCUM constantly complains about grade inflation and how no one can stand out because everyone gets an A. DCUM constantly reminds us that "Cs get degrees" is a saying because people used to actually get Cs.

But the minute a teacher actually hands out Cs, DCUM complains that the teacher is grading students on their actual performance and has high standards.

For the millionth time -- ITS ABOUT CONSISTENCY!!!

No one is saying that some kids don't deserver a C or worse. We are saying have it consistent across classes that teach the same material. Why is that hard for you to understand? You resort to the "DCUM parents are so vile" and can not actually debate the merits of having common consistency from one teacher to the next.

What I can’t figure out is why when the FCPS grading website says consistency is so important and the School Board says it is too, why is it so hard to implement same grading in same departments? It’s not even asking same grading across all departments in a school, just if 2 teachers in same school teaching English 11-can have different styles, personalities, etc, but don’t have 1 teacher gives 3 question quizzes after reading a book that can attempt multiple times and the other teacher has mandatory essays that grade on 8 point scale so unless perfect don’t get 8/8 and students told 7/8 is great but in gradebook is 87.5%.

We are required to give the same summative assessments in our classes. My team chooses to give the same formative assessments as well, but that has not been mandated.

If you do give same formative assessments, are you required to grade the same or is there flexibility there too? Would think policy would need to be if DO use same formative material that need to handle and grade same way?

Or is this possible when formative- that if 4 teachers use same formative level skills check that is online (so auto-grades with immediate feedback to student and teacher), one teacher cab say students can only take once and so one-time grade goes in gradebook (because formative), 2nd teacher can say students can take twice and best of 2 grades used, 3rd teacher can say students can take twice and average of the 2 grades is used and 4th teacher can say take up to 3 times and either best of 3 grades used or average of top 2 grades?

[Anonymous]

There is also not consistency among schools and yet all of the FCPS schools are supposedly teaching the same curriculum.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's truly amazing - DCUM constantly complains about grade inflation and how no one can stand out because everyone gets an A. DCUM constantly reminds us that "Cs get degrees" is a saying because people used to actually get Cs.

But the minute a teacher actually hands out Cs, DCUM complains that the teacher is grading students on their actual performance and has high standards.

For the millionth time -- ITS ABOUT CONSISTENCY!!!

No one is saying that some kids don't deserver a C or worse. We are saying have it consistent across classes that teach the same material. Why is that hard for you to understand? You resort to the "DCUM parents are so vile" and can not actually debate the merits of having common consistency from one teacher to the next.

My first post on this thread was the post you quoted, PP. This is my second. I don't get credit or blame for any of the others.

If it were about consistency, then OP's second sentence wouldn't be "I’m talking about a scenerio where nobody in the class is getting an A because the teacher wants to be tough." OP is complaining about the teacher's grading standards without reference to any other class in the entire original post. The existence of another class doesn't even get mentioned until 12th response on the post, which may or may not actually be OP.

Assuming it is OP, if OP's kid were in the easy class would OP be complaining here about how their kid is underprepared for the exam due to all the easy As? I kind of doubt it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's truly amazing - DCUM constantly complains about grade inflation and how no one can stand out because everyone gets an A. DCUM constantly reminds us that "Cs get degrees" is a saying because people used to actually get Cs.

But the minute a teacher actually hands out Cs, DCUM complains that the teacher is grading students on their actual performance and has high standards.

For the millionth time -- ITS ABOUT CONSISTENCY!!!

No one is saying that some kids don't deserver a C or worse. We are saying have it consistent across classes that teach the same material. Why is that hard for you to understand? You resort to the "DCUM parents are so vile" and can not actually debate the merits of having common consistency from one teacher to the next.

What I can’t figure out is why when the FCPS grading website says consistency is so important and the School Board says it is too, why is it so hard to implement same grading in same departments? It’s not even asking same grading across all departments in a school, just if 2 teachers in same school teaching English 11-can have different styles, personalities, etc, but don’t have 1 teacher gives 3 question quizzes after reading a book that can attempt multiple times and the other teacher has mandatory essays that grade on 8 point scale so unless perfect don’t get 8/8 and students told 7/8 is great but in gradebook is 87.5%.

We are required to give the same summative assessments in our classes. My team chooses to give the same formative assessments as well, but that has not been mandated.

If you do give same formative assessments, are you required to grade the same or is there flexibility there too? Would think policy would need to be if DO use same formative material that need to handle and grade same way?

Or is this possible when formative- that if 4 teachers use same formative level skills check that is online (so auto-grades with immediate feedback to student and teacher), one teacher cab say students can only take once and so one-time grade goes in gradebook (because formative), 2nd teacher can say students can take twice and best of 2 grades used, 3rd teacher can say students can take twice and average of the 2 grades is used and 4th teacher can say take up to 3 times and either best of 3 grades used or average of top 2 grades?

That's a good question--we are generally aligned and on the same page, so it hasn't been an issue. I'm not sure that has been mandated for formatives. For summatives, yes--that policy is set by the team and all teachers of that subject must allow the same version or retakes/corrections/replacement/whatever.

I think the assumption is by the end of the year the formative category should have 20+ grades in it so none of the little quizzes are worth more than 1-2%. The minimum grade is 50% so the variation at the end of the day should be pretty small compared to summatives no matter how they're graded. (I understand in practice not all classes end up like this, but they *should*)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's truly amazing - DCUM constantly complains about grade inflation and how no one can stand out because everyone gets an A. DCUM constantly reminds us that "Cs get degrees" is a saying because people used to actually get Cs.

But the minute a teacher actually hands out Cs, DCUM complains that the teacher is grading students on their actual performance and has high standards.

For the millionth time -- ITS ABOUT CONSISTENCY!!!

No one is saying that some kids don't deserver a C or worse. We are saying have it consistent across classes that teach the same material. Why is that hard for you to understand? You resort to the "DCUM parents are so vile" and can not actually debate the merits of having common consistency from one teacher to the next.

It is very consistent at my school. We all use the exact same rubrics (that college board creates, since we are utilizing old AP questions for tests). Any tests that we are unsure of how to score (rare, the rubrics are generally quite clear) we bring to CT meetings to discuss. FWIW, this is exactly how AP exams will be scored too.

Could it be that this is happening behind the scenes and you aren't aware?

I teach in a high school where we know this is supposed to be happening, but in reality not all the teachers even use the rubric. People just don't have time. We have 3-4 preps each.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's truly amazing - DCUM constantly complains about grade inflation and how no one can stand out because everyone gets an A. DCUM constantly reminds us that "Cs get degrees" is a saying because people used to actually get Cs.

But the minute a teacher actually hands out Cs, DCUM complains that the teacher is grading students on their actual performance and has high standards.

For the millionth time -- ITS ABOUT CONSISTENCY!!!

No one is saying that some kids don't deserver a C or worse. We are saying have it consistent across classes that teach the same material. Why is that hard for you to understand? You resort to the "DCUM parents are so vile" and can not actually debate the merits of having common consistency from one teacher to the next.

It is very consistent at my school. We all use the exact same rubrics (that college board creates, since we are utilizing old AP questions for tests). Any tests that we are unsure of how to score (rare, the rubrics are generally quite clear) we bring to CT meetings to discuss. FWIW, this is exactly how AP exams will be scored too.

Could it be that this is happening behind the scenes and you aren't aware?

I teach in a high school where we know this is supposed to be happening, but in reality not all the teachers even use the rubric. People just don't have time. We have 3-4 preps each.

We all have 3 preps this year too. There are sooo many CT meetings.

A solid rubric grades faster than anything else though, unless you’re just checking that they did it and not grading for correctness. AP literally provides it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s tough when teachers use AP multiple choice questions and base their grade on the percentage correct. In order to get a 5 you don’t need to get 90% correct.

So for example APUSH, 60-65 percent will have you most likely passing with a 3 on the actual AP Test. 70 percent is 4 territory. 80 percent will get you a 5. It is really rare to get 100% on any AP test. But if teachers give tests from released questions they have access to and use a traditional grading scales, students find getting A’s challenging.

I do this. But then I curve grades. In my AP course a 50% in may is generally a 3 on the exam, so I curve test scores so that 50% becomes a C-, 65% becomes a B-, and an 80% becomes an A-. That is a smidge tougher than college board's scoring (it's pretty close to 50 (3)/60 (4)/ 75 (5) in reality) but I figure my unit tests on a small chunk of limited standards are easier than the test in May with a year's worth of material and a much longer block of time.

The reality is that at the beginning of the year kids don't perform at a "5" level. I am grading on an AP rubric, giving timely feedback, lots of practice, lots of opportunities to clarify, but it takes a couple of units to understand the AP way of responding to FRQs. By November/December I've got them trained and I usually suggest saving retakes on FRQs until then. It's built in spiral review to study for unit 1/2/3 in December, and the content will feel easier at that point anyway.

By May, my gradebook will be 80% As and Bs, 15% Cs, and 1 or 2 Ds. Right now, with 1 test on the books, it's 30% Ds and I have a couple of Fs. Some will drop when they realize the class is hard, but most will rise to the challenge and improve.

Obviously some of my colleagues are lazy (sorry), but some of us are legitimately training your children to perform at a higher level and they just aren't there yet.

If that’s your process then why not be transparent to parents and more importantly, the students about it? It just causes unnecessary anxiety and stress. I think sometimes students just need to understand that they’ll be ok if they keep putting in the work.

To be clear, my DC doesn’t find the material particularly difficult and does know it well. If it were a multiple choice test for example, they’d have 100%. It’s just they don’t understand the subjective grading that dings them for really small things. Meanwhile their peers are breezing thru the same class with other teachers and a fraction of the work.

This teacher seems transparent, probably not the one OP is referring to.

OP here. I appreciate this teacher’s perspective, we just haven’t received that level of transparency and coupled with other AP teachers not being so harsh on the grading, it is easily misunderstood by students. Thus the mad rush by students requesting to switch out or drop down. This was not even brought up at BTSN so why would any of us know what’s standard AP grading practice and not? Is it truly a style of grading that’s recommended by the AP Board or a preference of the teacher? Why then aren’t all the teachers following protocol? I appreciate the openness of the teachers on here but am left wondering if that’s truly the case for my DS’s class.

I think many teachers are in their own echo chamber and do not realize the impact of their style has on their students. When an equivalent class with another teacher does not do this, it begs the question why would a harsh teacher choose to do this. I think transparency from the start would go a long way in calming students stress levels and foster better relations between parents and teachers to help kids. Just be honest and transparent in your system and let students know why you choose to be tough grader vs. the teacher of the same class that chooses a more reasonable path.

Tough grader could equal the good grader. Reasonable could equal lenient with no standards.

Not sure I follow. At the end of the day, the tough grader’s grade will be stacked up against the reasonable grader’s grade on a college app and the kid who worked harder and maybe learned more will look worse on paper. Our AP teacher needs to strike that balance otherwise they are doing a disservice to hard working kids for no reason other than they think they are being tough for the right reasons. You’re just screwing them over

Honestly, teachers do not care if they are unfairly giving your kid an advantage or disadvantage! They see wealthy Asian or white kids and they do not give one hoot which ones goes to T10, T30 or T50. If they are younger they probably went to a third tier state school and barely kept a 3.0 average. They resent the high score grinders and kids killing themselves to get into top schools.

And here’s why I don’t like these threads. OP has a question that can’t actually be answered here. Logically, OP already knows to reach out to the school.

So all this did was open up an opportunity for posters to slam teachers, as if there isn’t enough of that on this site.

And the bad teachers don’t care. They really don’t. The good teachers will take nonsense like the post above personally.

And the good teachers are the ones we should be trying to keep right now. Trust me when I say many of them are already looking for an exit from the profession. Why give more reasons?

How dramatic. Good teacher’s aren’t leaving because someone on DCUM criticizes them. If they’re truly taking an anonymous internet board personally then looking for the exit is a good idea.

Are you a teacher, or just someone who feels comfortable speaking for us?

When you are barraged with negativity ALL THE TIME, it starts to weigh on you. Want to help the good teachers? Stop criticizing all teachers for the perceived actions of one.

And I don’t think you should continue calling for our exit. Who do you think is coming to replace us? Education departments aren’t graduating many teachers these days. Career changers often don’t last.

Unemployment rates are rising among college graduates and plenty will take cast iron job security and significant off time. Recent graduates can teach even without coming from an “education department” and many will be better off for it.

— Sibling of an excellent teacher with a PhD that isn’t in education, who thinks the general state of teaching is very problematic and has more resilience than to get “weighed down” by other parents realizing it .

In the PP. I’m glad your sibling is an excellent teacher. Many of us are.

And some of us are teaching through our planning periods because colleagues already quit. Yes, your sibling is correct: teaching is in ruins. Yet DCUM will find ways to pile more on.

Your causal arrow is flawed. Teaching isn't in ruins because DCUM highlights poor teaching. My sister, being a parent herself, has had plenty to say about weak teaching in her daughters’ schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Teachers have a lot of discretion on how they grade.

Understatement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^ this is unfortunate. np here. Good management would mean the existence of a Department Head who would generally oversea some relative consistency.

Let's be real no one in FCPS is overseeing anything.