Would you let your junior college student study abroad in Shanghai or Hong Kong next year?

[Anonymous]

I work at a US university and our ability to interact in any way with Chinese universities (including HK) is becoming more and more restricted. There was an executive order released yesterday that increased those restrictions. I know OP is talking about a student but just be aware that it might not be the best time.

I lived with my family in Beijing for five years and would otherwise say yes. I like HK but Shanghai would be great too. Foreigner students are kept somewhat separate but still a great experience.

[Anonymous]

NP: my DC is also interested in studying in China next year. Already speaks decent Mandarin (simplified) and wants language immersion to really perfect their skills. They are concerned if they go to Taiwan the use of traditional characters will make them functionally illiterate, although they could still speak of course. Anyone have thoughts on if this is true, or how hard it would be to get the most out of language immersion in Taiwan if you don't know traditional characters？

As a parent it hadn't even occurred to me to be concerned about spending time in China. I figured the Chinese government isn't concerned about college undergrads and the kids just use a VPN to get around the firewall. But maybe Taiwan is a safer bet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:NP: my DC is also interested in studying in China next year. Already speaks decent Mandarin (simplified) and wants language immersion to really perfect their skills. They are concerned if they go to Taiwan the use of traditional characters will make them functionally illiterate, although they could still speak of course. Anyone have thoughts on if this is true, or how hard it would be to get the most out of language immersion in Taiwan if you don't know traditional characters？

As a parent it hadn't even occurred to me to be concerned about spending time in China. I figured the Chinese government isn't concerned about college undergrads and the kids just use a VPN to get around the firewall. But maybe Taiwan is a safer bet.

Is Singapore an option?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:NP: my DC is also interested in studying in China next year. Already speaks decent Mandarin (simplified) and wants language immersion to really perfect their skills. They are concerned if they go to Taiwan the use of traditional characters will make them functionally illiterate, although they could still speak of course. Anyone have thoughts on if this is true, or how hard it would be to get the most out of language immersion in Taiwan if you don't know traditional characters？

As a parent it hadn't even occurred to me to be concerned about spending time in China. I figured the Chinese government isn't concerned about college undergrads and the kids just use a VPN to get around the firewall. But maybe Taiwan is a safer bet.

This depends on how fluent he is. If he knows a fair number of characters, he can probably read traditional or guess a word correctly. People travel between China and Taiwan all the time and can navigate fine. They likely cannot write the system they didn't learn. From a speaking perspective, English is still taught in Taiwan and many people can hold conversations in good English. China is the opposite, I am not Chinese but I don't think I ever heard an English loaner word and English is not taught in school. Either would be fine for language immersion though, as anywhere you don't want to hang out just with the English crowd. The firewall isn't really an issue. I think China used to be more lenient on clueless foreigners breaking laws they didn't know about (especially traveling in third tier cities where the locals implement laws sometimes incorrectly) or foreigners were just treated better. You can't really argue or reason your way out of a situation now.

[Anonymous]

No. If anything happens the US government will not be there for them during the next few years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:NP: my DC is also interested in studying in China next year. Already speaks decent Mandarin (simplified) and wants language immersion to really perfect their skills. They are concerned if they go to Taiwan the use of traditional characters will make them functionally illiterate, although they could still speak of course. Anyone have thoughts on if this is true, or how hard it would be to get the most out of language immersion in Taiwan if you don't know traditional characters？

As a parent it hadn't even occurred to me to be concerned about spending time in China. I figured the Chinese government isn't concerned about college undergrads and the kids just use a VPN to get around the firewall. But maybe Taiwan is a safer bet.

If the Chinese government decides to care, those VPNs are illegal. They’ve ignored it off and on but could change their minds if it suits.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For Asia, Japan, Korea, or Singapore.

You do realize they don’t speak Mandarin there, right?

DP, and I live in Singapore. Mandarin is WIDELY spoken here: it's the second language, after English. I'm American and don't speak Mandarin, but I hear it every day. Outside, shopping, at hawker centers, overhearing my Singaporean colleagues chatting in Mandarin amongst themselves: everywhere. Even "Singlish", a common local vernacular, is English modeled on Mandarin sentence structures, with Mandarin words woven in.

If OP's child wanted to speak Mandarin in Singapore, he could easily do it every day with people who are native speakers, on all levels of society.

Oh, and the majority of Singaporeans do NOT sound like the characters on Crazy Rich Asians. I think that was source of your misunderstanding, PP. Crazy Rich Asians...is not real.

Singaporean Mandarin is quite different than standard, with different grammar and vocabulary. Like you wouldn’t call Singlish speakers “native” speakers of English.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For Asia, Japan, Korea, or Singapore.

You do realize they don’t speak Mandarin there, right?

DP, and I live in Singapore. Mandarin is WIDELY spoken here: it's the second language, after English. I'm American and don't speak Mandarin, but I hear it every day. Outside, shopping, at hawker centers, overhearing my Singaporean colleagues chatting in Mandarin amongst themselves: everywhere. Even "Singlish", a common local vernacular, is English modeled on Mandarin sentence structures, with Mandarin words woven in.

If OP's child wanted to speak Mandarin in Singapore, he could easily do it every day with people who are native speakers, on all levels of society.

Oh, and the majority of Singaporeans do NOT sound like the characters on Crazy Rich Asians. I think that was source of your misunderstanding, PP. Crazy Rich Asians...is not real.

Singaporean Mandarin is quite different than standard, with different grammar and vocabulary. Like you wouldn’t call Singlish speakers “native” speakers of English.

I agree but I say Beijing or bust when it comes to Chinese language.

[Anonymous]

Op here. This has been a helpful conversation, thanks all! And I appreciate how it didn’t veer off into subtly racist discussions like it did when I posted on the politics board.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Study in China, um no.

I am a huge supporter of study abroad but this is a terrible time for these locales.

+ 1,000 - Communists HATE Americans.

[Anonymous]

NP, sorry to join late: my DC studied in Shanghai during the fall 2024 semester. Had an amazing time, really advanced their Chinese language (he'd studied since middle school and is a Chinese major), travelled all over the country, never had any issues other than a lot of surprise by people at seeing someone who was obviously foreign speaking reasonably respectable Chinese.

He is not Asian American but had a number of friends in the program who were; I don't believe anyone had any issues whatsoever. I checked with USG sources before he went; they were not aware of any issues that have arisen with individual US students. (The same can't be said for business travellers, although that mostly involves the diaspora.)

Some of the logistics feel really daunting - how to manage the tech and money/banking. It was probably more daunting for the slightly clueless parents than the kid himself.

The program he went on is run by CET (which is based in DC); CET has worked in China since normalization and have a great track record. They helped with the logistics on the ground and had good insights on safety issues. There are also campuses in/near Shanghai run by NYU and Duke.

My DC wanted to go in the fall semester for schedule reasons. In retrospect, I'm glad he chose that time. I think it's natural to have some trepidation now, especially with your kids, but I've been to China for work and would go back again. I'd also support my kid returning for future study, for whatever that's worth.

I don't think Hong Kong is safer tbh. And Taiwan is amazing but there's a lot more English in the capital and there's a different kind of security concern to contend with. Good luck OP!

[Anonymous]

No. The PRC routinely has arbitrary arrest and detention of anyone within their grasp. They do not have an independent legal system - legal decisions are determined by Communist party officials. Too risky, esp with US relations being shaky.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:NP, sorry to join late: my DC studied in Shanghai during the fall 2024 semester. Had an amazing time, really advanced their Chinese language (he'd studied since middle school and is a Chinese major), travelled all over the country, never had any issues other than a lot of surprise by people at seeing someone who was obviously foreign speaking reasonably respectable Chinese.

He is not Asian American but had a number of friends in the program who were; I don't believe anyone had any issues whatsoever. I checked with USG sources before he went; they were not aware of any issues that have arisen with individual US students. (The same can't be said for business travellers, although that mostly involves the diaspora.)

Some of the logistics feel really daunting - how to manage the tech and money/banking. It was probably more daunting for the slightly clueless parents than the kid himself.

The program he went on is run by CET (which is based in DC); CET has worked in China since normalization and have a great track record. They helped with the logistics on the ground and had good insights on safety issues. There are also campuses in/near Shanghai run by NYU and Duke.

My DC wanted to go in the fall semester for schedule reasons. In retrospect, I'm glad he chose that time. I think it's natural to have some trepidation now, especially with your kids, but I've been to China for work and would go back again. I'd also support my kid returning for future study, for whatever that's worth.

I don't think Hong Kong is safer tbh. And Taiwan is amazing but there's a lot more English in the capital and there's a different kind of security concern to contend with. Good luck OP!

Op- thank you!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For Asia, Japan, Korea, or Singapore.

You do realize they don’t speak Mandarin there, right?

DP, and I live in Singapore. Mandarin is WIDELY spoken here: it's the second language, after English. I'm American and don't speak Mandarin, but I hear it every day. Outside, shopping, at hawker centers, overhearing my Singaporean colleagues chatting in Mandarin amongst themselves: everywhere. Even "Singlish", a common local vernacular, is English modeled on Mandarin sentence structures, with Mandarin words woven in.

If OP's child wanted to speak Mandarin in Singapore, he could easily do it every day with people who are native speakers, on all levels of society.

Oh, and the majority of Singaporeans do NOT sound like the characters on Crazy Rich Asians. I think that was source of your misunderstanding, PP. Crazy Rich Asians...is not real.

Singaporean Mandarin is quite different than standard, with different grammar and vocabulary. Like you wouldn’t call Singlish speakers “native” speakers of English.

Yes, I would, because the majority of Singlish speakers readily code-switch between standard English (for work, speaking to non-Singlish speakers, etc) and Singlish and Mandarin.

I don't speak Mandarin so can't comment for sure about the differences in that, but I do know that MANY people here were born/raised in China, so I would imagine their Mandarin is indeed "Chinese Mandarin." I'd be surprised if "Singapore Mandarin" is different because there is just so much interaction and exposure to "China Chinease" and their media, culture, and natives who moved here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would pick Hong Kong over Shanghai simply because of health reasons and food quality. I’ve lived in Asia for a lot of years. With China, even without political considerations, I’d worry about the quality of food. The farming system there and the industrial waste spillage and their casual disposal into the waterways and farmland gives me pause about toxins in food. With Hong Kong you may have more access to foreign supermarkets and food. And yes, I would cook my own food and limit eating out in restaurants. If possible, I would bring my own food with me if I had to go to China.

My kid had an opportunity to go to Beijing for two weeks in groups program. I didn’t let them. We’ve lived in Japan, Malaysia, South Korea, Indonesia and visited many more, thought not in the last 12 years. Lots of food are imported from China so we employ a certain strategy to insure our safety as much as possible.

Also, a friend that I knew while living in one of the above countries about 20 years, and who’d previously spent 5 years living in Beijing came down with multiple myeloma 6 years ago. She became part of some research. During the background history (she had no family history of the disease) portion of the research, it was concluded, according to her, she was probably exposed to certain toxins while living in Asia - she lived in Taiwan (3 years), Beijing (5years), South Korea (6years). She was a foodie and was not particularly careful about where her food came from. I remember warning her to use bottled (we had water delivery options) water to drink and cook with and to limit her groceries to imported food whenever she could, she never listened. This was the early 2000s. We’ve spent a lot of time living abroad, so for me, I take a lot into consideration when traveling or living abroad.

There really aren't western style supermarkets in Asia.
One goes to the "market" where various vendors have their fresh goods of the day. And usually for meats, it is best to request that in advance so they have it prepped for you. Sometimes by 12noon everything shuts down - depends on the market. It may be tough to regulsrly cook at home because of this. The night markets are pretty great and economical. It is the prepackaged goods one should be careful about and those tend to be in western style supermarkets.