What does your religion or faith give you…

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, thank you all for the responses so far. It's interesting to me that they're so varied.

FYI, I will identify myself as OP in my posts, as I don't want anyone to think I'm challenging their answers. I really do ask in a spirit of openness and curiosity to whatever you have to offer. I think it feels like true faith has always been a huge thing that has been happening nearby -- I can almost reach out and touch it -- but it's on the other side of a curtain or something, so it's still opaque.

Thank you for sharing your experiences.

In 1 Corinthians 13, St. Paul says that "now we see through a glass darkly [or "in a mirror dimly"] but then [after death] we shall see face to face." So you are in good company when you experience faith in this way. Christian theologians often describe Christian faith as a reasonable faith. That is, it is not faith that requires you to suspend reason. Instead, it is faith that is consistent with reason. But it is nevertheless faith because we know things only in part--the remainder is withheld from our direct observation and knowledge. And for those things we have faith. Faith itself is a gift of God, not of oneself (Ephesians 2:8-9). With St. Thomas we can say "I believe, help my unbelief!"

As to whether it is important that our faith is in something true: yes, it is absolutely essential, the sina qua non. St. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15 that if the resurrection of the body is a false promise then we are "above all men to be most pitied" and our faith is in vain.

Christian theologians describe the christian faith as a reasonable faith... That's equivalent to Commanders fans saying they are the best team in the NFL.

There is nothing reasonable about the holy trinity, virgin birth, converting water into wine, miraculously healing lepers, etc.

You are missing the point of miracles. Miracles are a sign to attract reasonable people. The only reasonable explanation for miracles is divine power that can alter what we see as the ordinary course of events. The fact that charlatans and fake miracles exist does not bear on whether true miracles have occurred. In fact, it is more indicative that they have occurred and are rare. For example, counterfeit currency actually indicates that real currency exists.

What kind of logic is this? Please explain how all the miracles that have been disproved are indicative that others actually have? That is the OPPOSITE of the logical conclusion.

Counterfeit currency in NO WAY indicates that real currency exists. "Counterfeit" means copy of a real thing, so it can't be counterfeit until there is a known real thing. If I give you currency from the country of lower slobovia, or a six-dollar bill with Warren Harding's picture on it, does that indicate real ones of those exist?

It would certainly indicate that real currency exists.
Your whole line of argument relies on the presupposition that there is no such thing as a miracle. I held that same position for years, but it crumbles in the face of any serious inquiry. One can start with the very existence of the universe: why should there be anything at all, how can we go from nothing to something, what about a first cause, etc.?

Seriously you can't be serious. Serious inquiry indicates that miracles are not real. There are things that happen that may have low statistical odds, but can happen nevertheless. That does not make it evidence of a miracle.

Secondly, explain how the trinity is reasonable? What about virgin birth?

Your question about the existence of the universe is a universal question, but your christian beliefs are not the answer. Science may not have a definitive answer, nor is there ever likely going to be one, but there are lots of ideas being discussed. And, as we gain more insight into quantum mechanics as we develop larger particle accelerators, we are slowly cracking open new insights into the nature of the universe. Knowledge builds on knowledge. Miracles? Not so much.

None of you believers are going to accept the challenge? Explain how the trinity is a reasonable concept? Same with virgin birth.

[Anonymous]

I'm really curious about the virgin birth reasoning. One would think that god with its infinite wisdom and knowledge would have known that us lowly minions/creations would one day understand some level of science and figure out the basics of sperm/egg cell and sexual reproduction. And, we would also understand parthenogenesis, which would make the virgin birth story somewhat plausible. Except, for that to work, Jesus was the wrong sex. It should have been the daughter of god, not the son of god.

I know, I know. The faithful are just going to shout, "miracle!".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm really curious about the virgin birth reasoning. One would think that god with its infinite wisdom and knowledge would have known that us lowly minions/creations would one day understand some level of science and figure out the basics of sperm/egg cell and sexual reproduction. And, we would also understand parthenogenesis, which would make the virgin birth story somewhat plausible. Except, for that to work, Jesus was the wrong sex. It should have been the daughter of god, not the son of god.

I know, I know. The faithful are just going to shout, "miracle!".

Not to mention the fact that there is a lot of evidence that the word that was translated to mean “virgin” doesn’t mean virgin . Can anyone here imagine if it just meant “young woman” this whole time ??? It’s kind of absurd to base beliefs that inform your life and others’ lives on copies of translations of copies of many different Languages of stories that were written beginning decades after the event ? It’s quite ludicrous without a healthy dose of something to shut down the thinking part of your brain

[Anonymous]

Inner peace and understanding that God is absolute perfection, He is Alpha and Omega, His perfect Love . I am centered by my continually growing understands of Him and my deepening connection to Him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Guidance for ethics and morality that enabled western civilization.

This is so funny. I am reading “The Shortest History of Europe” by John Hirst and it is page after page of horrific and immoral things done in the name of religion. And assuming you speak of Christianity, the Bible is also full of immoral things and endorses slavery, incest, mass murder, and scores of other atrocities. It’s a highly immoral book.

Alright. Enjoy your life without the ethics and morality promoted by Christ.

By the way, slavery has always existed and exists today with more people currently enslaved than any other time in history. Slavery was only abolished in large scale when the white Christian men who held power decided to do so in the name of biblical principles.

You mean the White “ Christian “ men who were the slave holders. Boy Bye!
They were not believers in Christ, they were believers in themselves. Give us a break.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Inner peace and understanding that God is absolute perfection, He is Alpha and Omega, His perfect Love . I am centered by my continually growing understands of Him and my deepening connection to Him.

What do these words mean? It's word salad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Guidance for ethics and morality that enabled western civilization.

This is so funny. I am reading “The Shortest History of Europe” by John Hirst and it is page after page of horrific and immoral things done in the name of religion. And assuming you speak of Christianity, the Bible is also full of immoral things and endorses slavery, incest, mass murder, and scores of other atrocities. It’s a highly immoral book.

Alright. Enjoy your life without the ethics and morality promoted by Christ.

By the way, slavery has always existed and exists today with more people currently enslaved than any other time in history. Slavery was only abolished in large scale when the white Christian men who held power decided to do so in the name of biblical principles.

You mean the White “ Christian “ men who were the slave holders. Boy Bye!
They were not believers in Christ, they were believers in themselves. Give us a break.

I think the plantation owners used Christianity as an excuse to do what they wanted to do anyhow -- have slaves.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Inner peace and understanding that God is absolute perfection, He is Alpha and Omega, His perfect Love . I am centered by my continually growing understands of Him and my deepening connection to Him.

What do these words mean? It's word salad.

Which pp learned via their religion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Guidance for ethics and morality that enabled western civilization.

This is so funny. I am reading “The Shortest History of Europe” by John Hirst and it is page after page of horrific and immoral things done in the name of religion. And assuming you speak of Christianity, the Bible is also full of immoral things and endorses slavery, incest, mass murder, and scores of other atrocities. It’s a highly immoral book.

Alright. Enjoy your life without the ethics and morality promoted by Christ.

By the way, slavery has always existed and exists today with more people currently enslaved than any other time in history. Slavery was only abolished in large scale when the white Christian men who held power decided to do so in the name of biblical principles.

You mean the White “ Christian “ men who were the slave holders. Boy Bye!
They were not believers in Christ, they were believers in themselves. Give us a break.

Facts are facts. You have no rebuttal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Guidance for ethics and morality that enabled western civilization.

This is so funny. I am reading “The Shortest History of Europe” by John Hirst and it is page after page of horrific and immoral things done in the name of religion. And assuming you speak of Christianity, the Bible is also full of immoral things and endorses slavery, incest, mass murder, and scores of other atrocities. It’s a highly immoral book.

Alright. Enjoy your life without the ethics and morality promoted by Christ.

By the way, slavery has always existed and exists today with more people currently enslaved than any other time in history. Slavery was only abolished in large scale when the white Christian men who held power decided to do so in the name of biblical principles.

WRONG!!!!!

The Curse of Ham (Genesis 9:18–27) was a passage particularly used by Christian slave owners to justify their enslavement of black people.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_slavery

The Bible not only endorses slavery, it tells you who to enslave, how to do it, and how you can beat them. Pro tip from the Bible: beat your slaves so they don’t die and you can avoid punishment.

Wrong again dear.

Christianity is a Jewish cult and as such has different beliefs, primarily the divinity of Christ who taught that all people were equal in the eyes of god.

Because of this many early Christians were slaves and women (who were essentially slaves then).

But please go on denying history, although it doesn’t sound like your ignorance is making very happy or content.

If Christianity teaches that all people are equal then why are gays persecuted for example ? Why are there version the Bible (Corinthians ) that say not to eat or be around people that are doing certain things ? Why are so many looked down on by “Christians” that are following the Bible to the letter? You can’t count people that are ignoring many parts of the Bible in favor of the lovey dovey stuff that most human beings would do without an ancient book telling them to

It’s not gay people, it is sinful actions. Just as someone choses to engage in stealing, adultery, murder, or rape.

It is really interesting what you believe “most human beings would do without an ancient book”.

Do you have any understanding of pre-Christian societies which were not shaped by Christian morality? Where women were property and infanticide and slavery were common? Anthropologically and historically the concepts “equality” and “human rights” are extremely rare.

Seriously? Women were considered property for a long time after Christianity. It was only in the 20th century that women could have their own credit cards.

Of course. And the only reason why women have “equal rights” today is because of the uniquely Christian moral belief that all people have value and are equal in the eyes of god.

Goddamn I hope this is sarcasm.

Do you think that “equality” is some type of inherent natural shared belief? Genuinely puzzled by your naïveté.

Still waiting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Guidance for ethics and morality that enabled western civilization.

This is so funny. I am reading “The Shortest History of Europe” by John Hirst and it is page after page of horrific and immoral things done in the name of religion. And assuming you speak of Christianity, the Bible is also full of immoral things and endorses slavery, incest, mass murder, and scores of other atrocities. It’s a highly immoral book.

Alright. Enjoy your life without the ethics and morality promoted by Christ.

By the way, slavery has always existed and exists today with more people currently enslaved than any other time in history. Slavery was only abolished in large scale when the white Christian men who held power decided to do so in the name of biblical principles.

WRONG!!!!!

The Curse of Ham (Genesis 9:18–27) was a passage particularly used by Christian slave owners to justify their enslavement of black people.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_slavery

The Bible not only endorses slavery, it tells you who to enslave, how to do it, and how you can beat them. Pro tip from the Bible: beat your slaves so they don’t die and you can avoid punishment.

Wrong again dear.

Christianity is a Jewish cult and as such has different beliefs, primarily the divinity of Christ who taught that all people were equal in the eyes of god.

Because of this many early Christians were slaves and women (who were essentially slaves then).

But please go on denying history, although it doesn’t sound like your ignorance is making very happy or content.

If Christianity teaches that all people are equal then why are gays persecuted for example ? Why are there version the Bible (Corinthians ) that say not to eat or be around people that are doing certain things ? Why are so many looked down on by “Christians” that are following the Bible to the letter? You can’t count people that are ignoring many parts of the Bible in favor of the lovey dovey stuff that most human beings would do without an ancient book telling them to

It’s not gay people, it is sinful actions. Just as someone choses to engage in stealing, adultery, murder, or rape.

It is really interesting what you believe “most human beings would do without an ancient book”.

Do you have any understanding of pre-Christian societies which were not shaped by Christian morality? Where women were property and infanticide and slavery were common? Anthropologically and historically the concepts “equality” and “human rights” are extremely rare.

Seriously? Women were considered property for a long time after Christianity. It was only in the 20th century that women could have their own credit cards.

Of course. And the only reason why women have “equal rights” today is because of the uniquely Christian moral belief that all people have value and are equal in the eyes of god.

Goddamn I hope this is sarcasm.

Do you think that “equality” is some type of inherent natural shared belief? Genuinely puzzled by your naïveté.

Still waiting.

You may wait forever. People may be unlikely to respond when they feel that they are not taken seriously

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Guidance for ethics and morality that enabled western civilization.

This is so funny. I am reading “The Shortest History of Europe” by John Hirst and it is page after page of horrific and immoral things done in the name of religion. And assuming you speak of Christianity, the Bible is also full of immoral things and endorses slavery, incest, mass murder, and scores of other atrocities. It’s a highly immoral book.

Alright. Enjoy your life without the ethics and morality promoted by Christ.

By the way, slavery has always existed and exists today with more people currently enslaved than any other time in history. Slavery was only abolished in large scale when the white Christian men who held power decided to do so in the name of biblical principles.

WRONG!!!!!

The Curse of Ham (Genesis 9:18–27) was a passage particularly used by Christian slave owners to justify their enslavement of black people.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_slavery

The Bible not only endorses slavery, it tells you who to enslave, how to do it, and how you can beat them. Pro tip from the Bible: beat your slaves so they don’t die and you can avoid punishment.

Wrong again dear.

Christianity is a Jewish cult and as such has different beliefs, primarily the divinity of Christ who taught that all people were equal in the eyes of god.

Because of this many early Christians were slaves and women (who were essentially slaves then).

But please go on denying history, although it doesn’t sound like your ignorance is making very happy or content.

If Christianity teaches that all people are equal then why are gays persecuted for example ? Why are there version the Bible (Corinthians ) that say not to eat or be around people that are doing certain things ? Why are so many looked down on by “Christians” that are following the Bible to the letter? You can’t count people that are ignoring many parts of the Bible in favor of the lovey dovey stuff that most human beings would do without an ancient book telling them to

It’s not gay people, it is sinful actions. Just as someone choses to engage in stealing, adultery, murder, or rape.

It is really interesting what you believe “most human beings would do without an ancient book”.

Do you have any understanding of pre-Christian societies which were not shaped by Christian morality? Where women were property and infanticide and slavery were common? Anthropologically and historically the concepts “equality” and “human rights” are extremely rare.

Seriously? Women were considered property for a long time after Christianity. It was only in the 20th century that women could have their own credit cards.

Of course. And the only reason why women have “equal rights” today is because of the uniquely Christian moral belief that all people have value and are equal in the eyes of god.

Goddamn I hope this is sarcasm.

Do you think that “equality” is some type of inherent natural shared belief? Genuinely puzzled by your naïveté.

Still waiting.

I’ll jump in with the obvious and self-evident answer, to hope stop your petulance.

Unless you have the unsupported by evidence belief that values are inherent and instilled by god, it is logical to believe they come from a combination of natural and cultural sourness. The primary one being the “golden rule” or the ethics of reciprocity (check Wikipedia on it if this is unclear. This is a concept that has existed for thousands of years before christ).

Quite simply, we treat others as we would like to be treated. Societal cooperation is best for us and everyone else. Pretty simple stuff. Equality is one of those values.

So not exactly “inherent”, but as inherent and evolutionarily necesasary as any other value.

Can you calm down now?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It gives me total freedom from worry and anxiety, and also no pressure to achieve goals. I don’t have to prove anything to anyone, including myself. This means all my energy can just be on enjoying the experience of life.

How does your religion do this for you?

Sorry— I didn’t get a chance to respond until now. My religion helps me to understand that life is nothing but an experience— and how I experience life is up to me. I choose how I react to life. I can choose to react to events with worry and anxiety, or I can choose to not. I can choose to feel like I need to achieve goals— or I can choose to not. I can choose to be self-critical because I want to meet some external standard; or I can choose to constantly strive to be better just because that makes for an even better experience.

Thanks. This sounds like a good philosophy, but not religious, because you didn't mention anything about the promise of an afterlife.

Not all religions require a belief in the afterlife.

Which religions don't have a belief in an afterlife?

Hinduism. You don’t have to believe in an afterlife if you don’t want to, because the focus is on this life. Some people find it helpful to believe in karmic consequences and the cycle of rebirth, as that will motivate them to make correct actions in this life, but you don’t need to believe this. Some of us believe that the cycle of rebirth happens within a single lifetime, and that alone motivates us to make ever better choices in life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Guidance for ethics and morality that enabled western civilization.

This is so funny. I am reading “The Shortest History of Europe” by John Hirst and it is page after page of horrific and immoral things done in the name of religion. And assuming you speak of Christianity, the Bible is also full of immoral things and endorses slavery, incest, mass murder, and scores of other atrocities. It’s a highly immoral book.

Alright. Enjoy your life without the ethics and morality promoted by Christ.

By the way, slavery has always existed and exists today with more people currently enslaved than any other time in history. Slavery was only abolished in large scale when the white Christian men who held power decided to do so in the name of biblical principles.

WRONG!!!!!

The Curse of Ham (Genesis 9:18–27) was a passage particularly used by Christian slave owners to justify their enslavement of black people.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_slavery

The Bible not only endorses slavery, it tells you who to enslave, how to do it, and how you can beat them. Pro tip from the Bible: beat your slaves so they don’t die and you can avoid punishment.

Wrong again dear.

Christianity is a Jewish cult and as such has different beliefs, primarily the divinity of Christ who taught that all people were equal in the eyes of god.

Because of this many early Christians were slaves and women (who were essentially slaves then).

But please go on denying history, although it doesn’t sound like your ignorance is making very happy or content.

If Christianity teaches that all people are equal then why are gays persecuted for example ? Why are there version the Bible (Corinthians ) that say not to eat or be around people that are doing certain things ? Why are so many looked down on by “Christians” that are following the Bible to the letter? You can’t count people that are ignoring many parts of the Bible in favor of the lovey dovey stuff that most human beings would do without an ancient book telling them to

It’s not gay people, it is sinful actions. Just as someone choses to engage in stealing, adultery, murder, or rape.

It is really interesting what you believe “most human beings would do without an ancient book”.

Do you have any understanding of pre-Christian societies which were not shaped by Christian morality? Where women were property and infanticide and slavery were common? Anthropologically and historically the concepts “equality” and “human rights” are extremely rare.

Seriously? Women were considered property for a long time after Christianity. It was only in the 20th century that women could have their own credit cards.

Of course. And the only reason why women have “equal rights” today is because of the uniquely Christian moral belief that all people have value and are equal in the eyes of god.

Goddamn I hope this is sarcasm.

Do you think that “equality” is some type of inherent natural shared belief? Genuinely puzzled by your naïveté.

Still waiting.

I’ll jump in with the obvious and self-evident answer, to hope stop your petulance.

Unless you have the unsupported by evidence belief that values are inherent and instilled by god, it is logical to believe they come from a combination of natural and cultural SOURCES. The primary one being the “golden rule” or the ethics of reciprocity (check Wikipedia on it if this is unclear. This is a concept that has existed for thousands of years before christ).

Quite simply, we treat others as we would like to be treated. Societal cooperation is best for us and everyone else. Pretty simple stuff. Equality is one of those values.

So not exactly “inherent”, but as inherent and evolutionarily necessary as any other value.

Can you calm down now?

Sources not "sourness"! Sorry typed on device.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Guidance for ethics and morality that enabled western civilization.

This is so funny. I am reading “The Shortest History of Europe” by John Hirst and it is page after page of horrific and immoral things done in the name of religion. And assuming you speak of Christianity, the Bible is also full of immoral things and endorses slavery, incest, mass murder, and scores of other atrocities. It’s a highly immoral book.

Alright. Enjoy your life without the ethics and morality promoted by Christ.

By the way, slavery has always existed and exists today with more people currently enslaved than any other time in history. Slavery was only abolished in large scale when the white Christian men who held power decided to do so in the name of biblical principles.

WRONG!!!!!

The Curse of Ham (Genesis 9:18–27) was a passage particularly used by Christian slave owners to justify their enslavement of black people.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_slavery

The Bible not only endorses slavery, it tells you who to enslave, how to do it, and how you can beat them. Pro tip from the Bible: beat your slaves so they don’t die and you can avoid punishment.

Wrong again dear.

Christianity is a Jewish cult and as such has different beliefs, primarily the divinity of Christ who taught that all people were equal in the eyes of god.

Because of this many early Christians were slaves and women (who were essentially slaves then).

But please go on denying history, although it doesn’t sound like your ignorance is making very happy or content.

If Christianity teaches that all people are equal then why are gays persecuted for example ? Why are there version the Bible (Corinthians ) that say not to eat or be around people that are doing certain things ? Why are so many looked down on by “Christians” that are following the Bible to the letter? You can’t count people that are ignoring many parts of the Bible in favor of the lovey dovey stuff that most human beings would do without an ancient book telling them to

It’s not gay people, it is sinful actions. Just as someone choses to engage in stealing, adultery, murder, or rape.

It is really interesting what you believe “most human beings would do without an ancient book”.

Do you have any understanding of pre-Christian societies which were not shaped by Christian morality? Where women were property and infanticide and slavery were common? Anthropologically and historically the concepts “equality” and “human rights” are extremely rare.

Seriously? Women were considered property for a long time after Christianity. It was only in the 20th century that women could have their own credit cards.

Of course. And the only reason why women have “equal rights” today is because of the uniquely Christian moral belief that all people have value and are equal in the eyes of god.

Goddamn I hope this is sarcasm.

Do you think that “equality” is some type of inherent natural shared belief? Genuinely puzzled by your naïveté.

Still waiting.

I’ll jump in with the obvious and self-evident answer, to hope stop your petulance.

Unless you have the unsupported by evidence belief that values are inherent and instilled by god, it is logical to believe they come from a combination of natural and cultural sourness. The primary one being the “golden rule” or the ethics of reciprocity (check Wikipedia on it if this is unclear. This is a concept that has existed for thousands of years before christ).

Quite simply, we treat others as we would like to be treated. Societal cooperation is best for us and everyone else. Pretty simple stuff. Equality is one of those values.

So not exactly “inherent”, but as inherent and evolutionarily necesasary as any other value.

Can you calm down now?

Nope.

Of course societal values come from sameness. But what determines if those values are to love your neighbor, or murder all infidels?

You are Wrong again. There is no such concept of equality in pre-Christian civilization. Your so-called distractor of the “golden rule” only applied to others of an in-group or shared status group. They had a version of this rule In ancient Egypt and Greece where slavery was widely practiced. Also there was a version of the golden rule in India where some people were born of low caste and deemed untouchable.

But go on, please do provide an example of any significant pre-Christian society which believed in universal “equality” and forbade slavery.