How important is physics?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it is strange to go through high school and not take a basic course of bio, Chem, and physics. But people seem to be forgoing physics more and more. My kids’ school requires physics. And I’m happy about it. It’s the most fundamental of all sciences. An educated citizen should know a little bit about it.

My honors high school physics course was badly done and boring. I retained nothing from it. I was exposed to physics but a lot more content stuck from Earth Science, Biology, and Chemistry. In college, for my science distribution requirements, I chose a Genetics elective for science majors and Chemistry and Public Policy (easy class but great teacher and fascinating course material....sort of like studying global warming wouid be today).

I have 2 male PhD physicists in my immediate family, btw. We have a gender split on this interest.

My senior only had the minimum Physics required (1 out of 4 semesters of 9th grade "expose to all sciences" survey course). He took AP Environmental Science. Was going to take AP Bio but due to schedule changes could not get that and is taking AP Stats and AP Calc AB.

I would recommend Physics for pre-med, science, Comp Sci, and Engineering majors. I doubt it matters for many others. At the high school level, it seems mainly to be a check-the-box class for the quantitatively adept to continue demonstrating their A-getting capabilities. (Mini-weed-out class for straight-A students).

Wow. Way to insult kids who take a single year of what is the most fundamental of all sciences. Maybe they just want a well rounded education in all the basic sciences. Jeez.

PP. Didn't insult anyone. "Matters" here is in the OP's context of "Will it hurt my DD's chances for admission if she doesn't take physics". Don't worry, the entire discipline of physics will not be harmed by my perception of whether it's useful or fun to take in high school. My husband enjoyed it in college. And I have physicists in my family...so I'm very, very used to hearing about how wonderful it is.

It's impossible to study everything in high school. I prefer curriculums to have a wide range of electives. I would rather have had organic chemistry than physics senior year but I thought taking physics was the right thing to do because it was the default senior science class at my school. I reject that kind of unquestioning attitude now. I would have been better off reading a book or watching a science docuseries about physics, even though I got As.

This kind of protective reaction towards physics is exactly what the OP is worried about. That her child will be disadvantaged in the admissions process or not be able to live a normal UMC life because DC was not exposed to high school physics.

Physics thanks you for your defense of its importance!

Oh please. You just said physics is a “check the box” class for nerds. I mean, how much more dismissive can you be?

Women physicists are awesome. We need more of them. I am sorry to hear about the gender split in your family but it is all too common.

PP. Two people seem to be misunderstanding me, so I'll respond. "Check the box" to me means you have to do it, even though you may or may not want to. That it's an accepted, known default. That doesn't make any value judgment about whether people like the class or want to take it. Or if they are nerds. I actually said "quantitatively adept" and "straight A students".

In a US high school, 4 years of "English" or "ELA" is pretty default. I also think that the 3-4 year foreign language requirement to get into good colleges is a "check-box". Some love foreign language, some hate it. Doesn't matter...it's socially enforced. Even though I personally like foreign language study, I feel college-bound students could benefit from having more true freedom to pursue other subjects.

If students are on a college track, it used to be pretty default to take physics...therefore check the box. At my high school, everyone on the college track took it. I do think some were hoping that their peers would get A minuses and so fall out of the running for valedictorian. In the DMV now, you have more sophisticated ways to disguise this competition...like weighted grades coupled with extremely rich AP class offerings...that breadth is not so common in other places with less regional affluence. There are tons of threads on this site that demonstrate parents are concerned about course selection for purposes of college admission vs. love of the subject. Do you really think a lot of students are concerned about abstract scientific well-roundedness vs. getting in and surviving at their future college majors?

If, as some people are saying, or fearing, physics must be on the transcript to get into a certain school, to get into or graduate from a specific major, then it's a weed out course. That's a decision that colleges have made. At one of the colleges I'm familiar with, physics was a weed out course for pre-meds.

So...back to OP's question...does her child need to take physics in high school to get into the desired colleges and business major. The answer appears to be no in qualified circumstances. That is not a statement about whether the class is fun, makes a person more well-rounded, is definitely essential, etc. I personally did not like my senior year physics class so I'm an advocate for more curriculum freedom. If I ever need more physics understanding, I can look it up the same way I research anything else not taught in high school. That's not a dismissive attitude, just practical.

OK, now if anyone is still mad about my opinion, and wants to make physics cooler to young girls, there's a recent kids' book called "Queen of Physics" that's quite interesting. Link below mentions this. I bought a copy of it because I have a feeling my grandpa probably worked with or adjacent to that person.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/blogs/smithsonian-education/2023/08/02/sharing-the-inspirational-stories-of-innovative-women-on-your-school-bookshelf/

Despite having all these physicists in your family, you do not seem to understand why it’s important to get a feel of how physics combines reasoning, math, and real life observations/problems for all educated citizens - not just those who have shown aptitude before high school. Get rid of all requirements so that you can just follow your passion is a sure fire way to have a fractured society that doesn’t understand the need for different types of people and different types of skills. And also, the chance the discover that despite never having been a “science kid”, you might just fall in love with the critical and structure thinking needed to understand physics.

Let’s say we are talking about onshoring manufacturing of semiconductor components (CHIPs and Science Act). If every American had some exposure to physics, they might have some understanding of the complexity in training a workforce to be able to do this. They might have a better informed opinion on the Taiwan/China issue. They might be resistant to being scared by (either side of) the nuclear fission arguments. They might be willing to invest in and have the patience to wait for fusion reactors. They might be able to formulate an opinion on whether we should have more particle accelerators and advanced lasers in this country rather than teaming with allies. Having people in our society who can manipulate physics is critical to maintaining and growing our quality of life. But if you don’t understand anything about how physicists process information, how they analyze and develop their ideas and how they are trained, you have no way of evaluating what they are saying.

All STEM kids should take 4 years of English (at some level), and 4 years of history or a social science even if they don’t love it. They should take foreign language. They should take bio, chem and physics. They should have an art requirement. And colleges should give extra points to the kids who take the time to make themselves into knowledgeable citizens rather than trying to get out of the basics.

I just disagree with your approach to education at the k-12 level.

PP. Yes, we do disagree (and I was only talking about 9-12 science electives due to OP's question, btw). When I read your post, the one thing that strikes me the most is the extreme sophistication of the issues that you believe physics education could help the great masses to understand and thus become better voters.

I am fully in support of people studying advanced subjects but I think people are having more trouble now even with simple skills like English (reading and writing), math, and media literacy and need more of that. To your point about voter education, I took a class in college called "Chemistry and Public Policy" that was very effective in making connections between everyday issues and science. But most high school courses are not like that. 101 classes focus on basic principles, formulas, laws, processes rather than issue analysis. And for people who don't like the material...it pretty much drains away right away...just like foreign language.

And...very interesting...some of the things you mentioned as things the public should invest in are things my family has worked on. So, I can say...the decisions on those more pure R&D projects are not being made or supported by the voting masses. They are made by scientists/policymakers/defense and energy agencies/research universities, etc. And wax and wane according to political issues related to the presidency and Congress. I am not too worried about how much access future presidents and Congresspeople have to good schools and thus the opportunity to take physics. Business decisions are different...and also not highly voter-related. I have perspectives on all of the issues that you mentioned but from a businessperson's training, not due to high school physics (which I have sadly forgotten all of).

I submit that it's history/civics/economics/media literacy that's more important than science education for repairing "What's wrong with America".

Regarding a common education for all, I do think allowing choice of science is good and will not undermine any social cohesion. I didn't advocate for less science in high school although I can personally see dropping foreign language as a hard requirement in favor of allowing substitution of English-language skill-specific classes. The main point of high school science is to understand the scientific method, the importance of being factual, and a little bit about the nature of the world around you. I don't think it matters which sciences.

OK, I'm triggered, I'm going to go clean up all the unread Physics Today articles scattered around my house that my kids refuse to read and that grandpa keeps sending. I think we probably should quit the dialogue because it's way beyond what OP originally asked and I don't think we're likely to convince each other. It would be nice to know if third parties are deriving value but I think it's more likely we'll soon get flamed for going on and on about the importance of physics. As physicists do. That's only natural, but just because you love and derive value from a specific field of study doesn't mean everyone else should have to study it by default. Think about it this way...what if I told you that every educated high school grad should take cost accounting and operations management to understand how businesses run. And you had to skip high school physics to do it. Would you be satisfied with that? Or want a choice?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is really hard to get physics in if you are doing an IB diploma---how have people gone about this?

Why would it be hard? It's one of the IB courses offered.

Its only offered as SL in our school and my kid really wants to take HL comp sci and chemistry--so then they have 3 sciences but are missing the ind/societies arm to get the IB diploma-so now they have to on top of everything take an SL hx--which is also two years as they need the US hx to graduate a VA school---its just so complicated...

[Anonymous]

Full IB is a pain in the butt if you are a STEM kid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is really hard to get physics in if you are doing an IB diploma---how have people gone about this?

Our kid just took regular Physics outside the IB diploma.

I was going to ask this too. My kids are in an IB only school and it may not be possible to take a physics course because you are only required to take 3 different science classes, but 4 years of science. If you want to focus your 2 year IB science class on something like chemistry, then physics isn’t an option. Yet somehow IB students get into selective colleges all the time without potentially having physics. Maybe they aren’t getting physics fundamentals but alternatively they are going very in depth in another area of science.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Full IB is a pain in the butt if you are a STEM kid.

I am pp. I hear that all the time. But my very STEM oriented child is going to take HL physics and the highest level math class (HL AA) offered in IB. That is a heavy STEM work load that is intense in a few key areas that she is most interested in.