Engineering Degree

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Seems like engineering schools are probably losing competent students just because the kids and their parents are used to inflated HS GPAs, believe a B is the equivalent of an F, and think a freshman year GPA of 3.0 means they’re “bad at engineering.”

I do wonder though if many good well rounded students wind up pursuing engineering just because they got good grades in HS math - I mean not everyone who can get an A in HS Calculus is ready to be an engineer. I guess the question is what does a parent do about a kid in engineering who can't manage a full course load and fails a fairly standard high level course...do they bail before its gets worse or try to grind through in the hopes that they can make it through and the actual career will be heavy on other skills?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Great thread. I am wondering if the Engineering curriculum is needlessly being made hard?

I am an engineer and use less than 10% of the math courses I had.

We keep hearing about shortage of engineers. Are the universities driving away potential students??

I personally don't think it's needlessly hard but I do think they often glory in weeding many out.

The foundations (ha! had to work in a CE reference) -- of some higher level math and basic applied maths -- are needed to fully understand the upper-level concepts. Take a look at Virginia Tech and MIT's CE requirements: they're still requiring multiple semesters of Calculus, Differential Equations (the 'pure' math) but also things like basic physics, chemistry, probability/stats, and economics which rely heavily on higher level mathematics. And that doesn't even begin to cover the actual 'engineering' classes.

For a freak out: check out VT's suggested "Road Map" on what graduating in four years really means. I'm assuming those (C-) mean you must get at least a C- before taking the next iteration, hence the name C-Wall Class; also check out those 'restricted' electives. Don't they say Easy-A to you? /s

You're right, though, actual 'math' used on the job is generally minimal. Much of it is now done by software and behind the scenes. A successful professional engineer's biggest skill is often the ability to navigate between the sometimes competing interests of clients, regulatory requirements, and the accountants. Way more of it is predicated on financing than what you're taught 'in school.' The 'real' math = money.

True. I asked my DC about the weed out classes, and he said the content wasn't hard for him but the curve was ridiculous. They were told a C means you get to stay in, and pretty much no one got higher than a C. The next level classes after the weed out are harder, but the Cs are getting As.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Seems like engineering schools are probably losing competent students just because the kids and their parents are used to inflated HS GPAs, believe a B is the equivalent of an F, and think a freshman year GPA of 3.0 means they’re “bad at engineering.”

I do wonder though if many good well rounded students wind up pursuing engineering just because they got good grades in HS math - I mean not everyone who can get an A in HS Calculus is ready to be an engineer. I guess the question is what does a parent do about a kid in engineering who can't manage a full course load and fails a fairly standard high level course...do they bail before its gets worse or try to grind through in the hopes that they can make it through and the actual career will be heavy on other skills?

In my E school, back in the day, the rest of the university has a “standard” course load of 15 credit hours/semester. Engineering by contrast had a “standard” course load of 18 or 19 credit hours/semester. And the E School had an enumerated list of permitted “general” electives, none of which were easy. This is why some E Schools offer a 5-year option for the undergraduate degree. UMd Engineering used to allow this; not sure if they still have the option.

One odd thing about engineering, in my own experience, is that engineers have to take prodigious number of advanced math courses, but after graduation engineers generally use mathematical software (e.g., Maple, MatLab, Mathematica, R) for the day-to-day computations on the job. I do not know anyone doing daily computations by hand.

Now, if interested in STEM but does not want the pain of E School undergrad, then consider a slightly different academic path, such as a BS Chemistry followed by MS ChemE. Or a BS Physics (with appropriate upper electives) followed by an MS ECE. Or a BSCS with a minor in ECE.

[Anonymous]

Because the commonly used immigrant visas (pronounced ach one bee) require at least an MS in STEM field, there is increasing career pressure (outside the realm of PEs) to have an MS in Engineering, in Physics, or in CS. The immigrant engineers will nearly always have those advanced degrees in engineering.

There are plenty of entry-level jobs with a BS, but those without some MS (or MBA) are more likely to it a glass ceiling down the road.

Many local DMV employers, and also SV Tech employers, will reimburse employees who are getting an advanced degree in their field and will give flex time to those doing so. Federal civil service is particularly good about this. Recent grads would be wise to pursue those MS degree options - or go straight through and do an MS right after undergrad.

Note: Employers will be happy with a project-based Masters degree, so it does not need to be a masters degree with a formal thesis (at least from a job / employer viewpoint).

[Anonymous]

Typo: Should have said “hit a glass ceiling” just above.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:NP, another female engineer here. The science & engineering school at the time was roughly 75% male, but nearly all of the women were in biology or geology. MechE, ChemE, EE, Structures, and Aero were much more heavily male. That's where I was, and often the only woman in my group or class. Today the school is about 65/45, but I don't know the breakdown by majors.

It was hard, no lie. I've done some hard things in my life, and that's the only thing I've ever really contemplated quitting because I didn't know if I could do it. Stubbornness won out, I graduated with a lot of Cs. Not sure I'd survive it today. The good news is that I really learned a ton, despite what the grades would indicate, and I've been successful in an engineering career for over 25 years.

Engineering can be a great career, and I'm not discouraging my kids who are interested. But my message to them is that you have to really WANT it. If you go into it thinking ok this is as good a choice as any ... you'll be miserable. You have to feel a drive for it. If you don't, keep looking.

I could haver written this post!
I vividly remember sobbing at my parents house thinking about quitting AeroE sophomore year. I was literally the only girl in most of my classes. I stuck with it and have had a great career, including a lot of flexibility and part time jobs when my kids were young.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow, I have a son who is in his first year hoping to get into Computer Engineering and needs a 3.75 GPA to be competitive (he is in general engineering for now), after his first semester he has a 3.45, which is great but might put him in the running for electrical or mechanical which are his fall backs for now. We have a daughter in her third year at a different university majoring in systems engineering with a minor in mechanical. They both work hard and I will give them extra props this week before they head back to school.

It is difficult to get and maintain a High gpa in engineering/cs. This is a good reason for people to consider schools where you can select any engineering you want and it's not a competition to maintain a 3.8+ to get into the major you desire. They do exist at many good engineering schools. My kid was accepted at 4 of that type, all in the 30-70 range.

Which schools, we're looking for direct admit.

CWRU, WPI, RPI, Clarkson, NJIT, Drexel, URochester, Tufts to list a few. They are all open admit---you can self select major once admitted (I think Tufts you first need admission to eng School but then you can pick what you want). I'm sure there are many more. over 50% of those listed are in the Top65-70. All excellent schools, still very challenging, but your kid doesn't have to fight to actually major in what they want to major in. IMO it's silly to give up your desire to major in X or Y simply to attend what you view as "a better school" because it's not really a better school if you are shut out of what you want to major in.

[Anonymous]

Only tangentially on topic, but at the Naval Academy, every student including poly sci, econ, English, and history majors, as well as the division I football and basketball teams have to take the first two years of engineering. Calc 1, 2, 3, diff eqs, EE 1 & 2, thermo, and of course a full year of chemistry and physics. Tell me if the Stanford & Duke D1 football and bball teams are doing that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow, I have a son who is in his first year hoping to get into Computer Engineering and needs a 3.75 GPA to be competitive (he is in general engineering for now), after his first semester he has a 3.45, which is great but might put him in the running for electrical or mechanical which are his fall backs for now. We have a daughter in her third year at a different university majoring in systems engineering with a minor in mechanical. They both work hard and I will give them extra props this week before they head back to school.

It is difficult to get and maintain a High gpa in engineering/cs. This is a good reason for people to consider schools where you can select any engineering you want and it's not a competition to maintain a 3.8+ to get into the major you desire. They do exist at many good engineering schools. My kid was accepted at 4 of that type, all in the 30-70 range.

Which schools, we're looking for direct admit.

Not PP, but my DD really liked Pitt for this reason. They do not cap engineering disciplines. I believe that Case Western is the same

But Pitt is not direct admit. You have to make at least a C- in certain classes, which can be easy for some and not so easy for others.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Great thread. I am wondering if the Engineering curriculum is needlessly being made hard?

I am an engineer and use less than 10% of the math courses I had.

We keep hearing about shortage of engineers. Are the universities driving away potential students??

I personally don't think it's needlessly hard but I do think they often glory in weeding many out.

The foundations (ha! had to work in a CE reference) -- of some higher level math and basic applied maths -- are needed to fully understand the upper-level concepts. Take a look at Virginia Tech and MIT's CE requirements: they're still requiring multiple semesters of Calculus, Differential Equations (the 'pure' math) but also things like basic physics, chemistry, probability/stats, and economics which rely heavily on higher level mathematics. And that doesn't even begin to cover the actual 'engineering' classes.

For a freak out: check out VT's suggested "Road Map" on what graduating in four years really means. I'm assuming those (C-) mean you must get at least a C- before taking the next iteration, hence the name C-Wall Class; also check out those 'restricted' electives. Don't they say Easy-A to you? /s

You're right, though, actual 'math' used on the job is generally minimal. Much of it is now done by software and behind the scenes. A successful professional engineer's biggest skill is often the ability to navigate between the sometimes competing interests of clients, regulatory requirements, and the accountants. Way more of it is predicated on financing than what you're taught 'in school.' The 'real' math = money.

True. I asked my DC about the weed out classes, and he said the content wasn't hard for him but the curve was ridiculous. They were told a C means you get to stay in, and pretty much no one got higher than a C. The next level classes after the weed out are harder, but the Cs are getting As.

Is this at VT?

[Anonymous]

This is a great thread, very interesting. Any advice from the engineers here on your thoughts between a mechanical engineering focus vs an aero focus? My son will soon begin his second semester and will need to make this decision somewhat soon. He’s in a general first-year engineering program now, which is where all Eng students start at his school. He’s really unsure which way to go. Both are very popular and hard to get into at his school, but he should have a shot at either hopefully. And he’s interested in both, so he’s trying to weigh the pros, cons, etc and will spend some time talking to his Advisor. But I thought I’d throw the question out here.

And a note to those asking about engineering and difficulty - it’s tough. My son did really well his first semester (he’s at Purdue), but it was with A LOT of work. I assume it will only get more difficult! One thing I will say is that he felt very prepared and felt his NoVA HS did a good job getting him ready.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is a great thread, very interesting. Any advice from the engineers here on your thoughts between a mechanical engineering focus vs an aero focus? My son will soon begin his second semester and will need to make this decision somewhat soon. He’s in a general first-year engineering program now, which is where all Eng students start at his school. He’s really unsure which way to go. Both are very popular and hard to get into at his school, but he should have a shot at either hopefully. And he’s interested in both, so he’s trying to weigh the pros, cons, etc and will spend some time talking to his Advisor. But I thought I’d throw the question out here.

And a note to those asking about engineering and difficulty - it’s tough. My son did really well his first semester (he’s at Purdue), but it was with A LOT of work. I assume it will only get more difficult! One thing I will say is that he felt very prepared and felt his NoVA HS did a good job getting him ready.

I am an ME who worked (briefly) in the aero industry. In general, I recommend sticking to one of the main branches of engineering for undergraduate: civil, mechanical, electrical, materials/metallurgy and maybe chemical and industrial, and specialize in a more niche discipline (e.g., aero, nuclear, petroleum, ocean) for masters. The aero industry is extremely dependent on the government expenditures, which results in boom-and-bust cycles (more bust than boom). I joined the aero industry in late 1980s, and there was a massive contraction in employment in 1991-1992 ("the peace dividend"). A lot of mid- to late-career engineers were laid off. Having a ME degree allowed me to pivot to a different industry.

Now, if the degree is officially in mechanical engineering with an aero focus, that is OK. That usually means taking a few electives in aero senior year. If the degree is in aero, then there won't be room to cover all the foundational ME disciplines. Compare the mechanical versus aero curricula in schools with both majors (e.g., MIT, Texas A&M and UT Austin are the ones I am familiar with). People will say an aero can do most of what an ME does, which is true; however, I believe that having the ME designation helped me 1991-1992 when there were a lot of out-of-work engineers. I know of a few non-aero employers who do not like hiring aeros because they think, rightly or wrongly, that the aeros will go back to their industry when the times pick up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a great thread, very interesting. Any advice from the engineers here on your thoughts between a mechanical engineering focus vs an aero focus? My son will soon begin his second semester and will need to make this decision somewhat soon. He’s in a general first-year engineering program now, which is where all Eng students start at his school. He’s really unsure which way to go. Both are very popular and hard to get into at his school, but he should have a shot at either hopefully. And he’s interested in both, so he’s trying to weigh the pros, cons, etc and will spend some time talking to his Advisor. But I thought I’d throw the question out here.

And a note to those asking about engineering and difficulty - it’s tough. My son did really well his first semester (he’s at Purdue), but it was with A LOT of work. I assume it will only get more difficult! One thing I will say is that he felt very prepared and felt his NoVA HS did a good job getting him ready.

I am an ME who worked (briefly) in the aero industry. In general, I recommend sticking to one of the main branches of engineering for undergraduate: civil, mechanical, electrical, materials/metallurgy and maybe chemical and industrial, and specialize in a more niche discipline (e.g., aero, nuclear, petroleum, ocean) for masters. The aero industry is extremely dependent on the government expenditures, which results in boom-and-bust cycles (more bust than boom). I joined the aero industry in late 1980s, and there was a massive contraction in employment in 1991-1992 ("the peace dividend"). A lot of mid- to late-career engineers were laid off. Having a ME degree allowed me to pivot to a different industry.

Now, if the degree is officially in mechanical engineering with an aero focus, that is OK. That usually means taking a few electives in aero senior year. If the degree is in aero, then there won't be room to cover all the foundational ME disciplines. Compare the mechanical versus aero curricula in schools with both majors (e.g., MIT, Texas A&M and UT Austin are the ones I am familiar with). People will say an aero can do most of what an ME does, which is true; however, I believe that having the ME designation helped me 1991-1992 when there were a lot of out-of-work engineers. I know of a few non-aero employers who do not like hiring aeros because they think, rightly or wrongly, that the aeros will go back to their industry when the times pick up.

PP immediately above...I forgot to say compare ME vs aero at Purdue as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is a great thread, very interesting. Any advice from the engineers here on your thoughts between a mechanical engineering focus vs an aero focus? My son will soon begin his second semester and will need to make this decision somewhat soon. He’s in a general first-year engineering program now, which is where all Eng students start at his school. He’s really unsure which way to go. Both are very popular and hard to get into at his school, but he should have a shot at either hopefully. And he’s interested in both, so he’s trying to weigh the pros, cons, etc and will spend some time talking to his Advisor. But I thought I’d throw the question out here.

And a note to those asking about engineering and difficulty - it’s tough. My son did really well his first semester (he’s at Purdue), but it was with A LOT of work. I assume it will only get more difficult! One thing I will say is that he felt very prepared and felt his NoVA HS did a good job getting him ready.

I'm the woman who wrote a few posts ago about sobbing in my parents house sophomore year. After that, I switched from MechE to Aero. It wasn't easier (in fact I'd argue that in some ways aero is harder, although they are very similar curriculum) but I was excited and passionate about the aero classes in a way that I wasn't about Mechanical. The PP is probably true that MechE is more broadly hire-able, but I graduated with several job offers and 27 years into an Aero career I've never had a hard time getting a job. I've also found that Aero engineers are often more passionate/excited about their jobs that a typical MechE/EE who maybe falls into the "like math, seems like an ok job" career path. I genuinely like the people I work with.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a great thread, very interesting. Any advice from the engineers here on your thoughts between a mechanical engineering focus vs an aero focus? My son will soon begin his second semester and will need to make this decision somewhat soon. He’s in a general first-year engineering program now, which is where all Eng students start at his school. He’s really unsure which way to go. Both are very popular and hard to get into at his school, but he should have a shot at either hopefully. And he’s interested in both, so he’s trying to weigh the pros, cons, etc and will spend some time talking to his Advisor. But I thought I’d throw the question out here.

And a note to those asking about engineering and difficulty - it’s tough. My son did really well his first semester (he’s at Purdue), but it was with A LOT of work. I assume it will only get more difficult! One thing I will say is that he felt very prepared and felt his NoVA HS did a good job getting him ready.

I'm the woman who wrote a few posts ago about sobbing in my parents house sophomore year. After that, I switched from MechE to Aero. It wasn't easier (in fact I'd argue that in some ways aero is harder, although they are very similar curriculum) but I was excited and passionate about the aero classes in a way that I wasn't about Mechanical. The PP is probably true that MechE is more broadly hire-able, but I graduated with several job offers and 27 years into an Aero career I've never had a hard time getting a job. I've also found that Aero engineers are often more passionate/excited about their jobs that a typical MechE/EE who maybe falls into the "like math, seems like an ok job" career path. I genuinely like the people I work with.

Not too many schools offer aero as a major though. It's mechanical, with perhaps an aero focus.

But yeah, passion is pretty critical. Do you want to build a plane? Do you want to build a rocket?

If that's not exciting when you're 19, it might not be the best major. The grind is real. There has to be a purpose.