AAP should be eliminated as it’s not the path to equity

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I found this article so moving:

https://tcf.org/content/commentary/gifted-talented-programs-not-path-equity/

And the arguments made are so compelling.

Don’t you agree this also applies to the AAP program? Should we find ways to phase it out, and offer the same opportunities to every learner in FCPS ?

Just stop it! Already enough about Equity! Don't want to see FCPS water down anymore...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:AAP is not a gifted program. It is mainly a way for parents with means to get their kids segregated from the poor kids, disguised as a gifted program. (Let’s not pretend these parents aren’t prepping their kids for the two tests which are meant to be taken totally unprepped, or that they’re not “contributing” to their children’s work samples, and when all else fails they’ll pay for and prep their kid for an IQ test…)

The problem is then everyone pretends that all of the kids left behind are getting an adequate and appropriate education. Wrong! The average, above average, and poor gifted kids are being left to flounder jn gen ed which is essentially remedial at this point. But the rich “gifted” kids are at centers so I guess all is well.

All the kids are taking the same standardized tests. They all have equal access to the same programs. If you are able to demonstrate a high level of knowledge in subjects, it makes perfect sense to be able to receive a higher level of acceleration and material taught. Just the same if a child tests low, remedial measures are put in place.

So you prepped your kids for the tests. That is essentially cheating - it is not indicative of your child’s giftedness. Which, again, is a HUGE part of the problem.

(Also, does no one else think it’s insane to basically permanently track kids at ages 6-7? Johnny didn’t score as well on a test he didn’t prepare for in second grade [because you’re not supposed to prepare for it] as Timmy whose Mommy was giving him practice tests for three months, so Johnny is essentially screwed for the the rest of his time in FCPS?)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I found this article so moving:

https://tcf.org/content/commentary/gifted-talented-programs-not-path-equity/

And the arguments made are so compelling.

Don’t you agree this also applies to the AAP program? Should we find ways to phase it out, and offer the same opportunities to every learner in FCPS ?

Yes, especially since the current incarnation of AAP is just segregation for those with means.

Try again. Without AAP, our school would be very white and homogenous.

My white kid was in an AAP class at his local elementary, and he was a minority. There were just a few white kids in the class.

Same

While it is technically true that you can be a White minority when surrounded by a majority of Indian and Korean AAP classmates, it is also misleading to claim that AAP is diverse because of that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are parents who read to their kids before going to bed. There are also kids who read to their parents before going to bed. And, there are parents and their kids who don't read at all at home.

On the path to equity, what should be done?

1) Restrict parents from reading to kids at home

2) Restrict kids from reading too many books at home

3) Restrict reading to school hours only so that every kid reads same amount

This seems reasonable. Perhaps lock up during certain hours. One option could be to incentivize divorce?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:AAP is not a gifted program. It is mainly a way for parents with means to get their kids segregated from the poor kids, disguised as a gifted program. (Let’s not pretend these parents aren’t prepping their kids for the two tests which are meant to be taken totally unprepped, or that they’re not “contributing” to their children’s work samples, and when all else fails they’ll pay for and prep their kid for an IQ test…)

The problem is then everyone pretends that all of the kids left behind are getting an adequate and appropriate education. Wrong! The average, above average, and poor gifted kids are being left to flounder jn gen ed which is essentially remedial at this point. But the rich “gifted” kids are at centers so I guess all is well.

All the kids are taking the same standardized tests. They all have equal access to the same programs. If you are able to demonstrate a high level of knowledge in subjects, it makes perfect sense to be able to receive a higher level of acceleration and material taught. Just the same if a child tests low, remedial measures are put in place.

So you prepped your kids for the tests. That is essentially cheating - it is not indicative of your child’s giftedness. Which, again, is a HUGE part of the problem.

(Also, does no one else think it’s insane to basically permanently track kids at ages 6-7? Johnny didn’t score as well on a test he didn’t prepare for in second grade [because you’re not supposed to prepare for it] as Timmy whose Mommy was giving him practice tests for three months, so Johnny is essentially screwed for the the rest of his time in FCPS?)

Parents are the most important teachers to their children. If a child scores high on a standardized math test or reading test and it is because their parent works have been working with the daily, great! They know the material. They should be entitled to harder more challenging material in class to further their education. Teachers and schools should meet and provide kids whatever level instruction they need- regardless of what parents do or don’t do at home. That is irrelevant. It isn’t “cheating” to teach and support and parent your child.

[Anonymous]

Slippery slope fallacy galore in this thread yep, giving some additional support to Black and Brown kids is going to end up in a dystopian future.

[Anonymous]

You all do realize that brains are muscles and can get smarter? So by working with your kids, you do make them smarter. Anyone can work with their kids. That is extremely equitable in my mind.

What I don't like is using IQ tests to determine kid placement. It should be based on how hard you work + the scores you get. Some mediocre kids work extremely hard and still make top grades and top scores on AP tests.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I found this article so moving:

https://tcf.org/content/commentary/gifted-talented-programs-not-path-equity/

And the arguments made are so compelling.

Don’t you agree this also applies to the AAP program? Should we find ways to phase it out, and offer the same opportunities to every learner in FCPS ?

Yes, especially since the current incarnation of AAP is just segregation for those with means.

Try again. Without AAP, our school would be very white and homogenous.

My white kid was in an AAP class at his local elementary, and he was a minority. There were just a few white kids in the class.

My child in a FCPS school managed to earn a spot on a very competitive academic team; he is the only white child on the team.

The PP who alleged AAP is some sort of bastion of whiteness is completely wrong. And her suggestion is kinda racist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You all do realize that brains are muscles and can get smarter? So by working with your kids, you do make them smarter. Anyone can work with their kids. That is extremely equitable in my mind.

What I don't like is using IQ tests to determine kid placement. It should be based on how hard you work + the scores you get. Some mediocre kids work extremely hard and still make top grades and top scores on AP tests.

Ironically, the brain is not actually a muscle.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You all do realize that brains are muscles and can get smarter? So by working with your kids, you do make them smarter. Anyone can work with their kids. That is extremely equitable in my mind.

What I don't like is using IQ tests to determine kid placement. It should be based on how hard you work + the scores you get. Some mediocre kids work extremely hard and still make top grades and top scores on AP tests.

Families aren't equitable. That is only issue at play here. Thats why the gaps never close. There is no program in school that will change this. This is all performative.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Slippery slope fallacy galore in this thread yep, giving some additional support to Black and Brown kids is going to end up in a dystopian future.

They do get a LOT of additional support. Classes and teaching are largely focused on giving kids that are behind additional support. The government and school cannot make up for lack of parenting or what a parent is capable of teaching at home. They just can’t. The government can’t give all kids equal parents

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are parents who read to their kids before going to bed. There are also kids who read to their parents before going to bed. And, there are parents and their kids who don't read at all at home.

On the path to equity, what should be done?

1) Restrict parents from reading to kids at home

2) Restrict kids from reading too many books at home

3) Restrict reading to school hours only so that every kid reads same amount

LOL. Restrict math talk in kitchen as well. If you give mommy one of your three crackers, how many do you have left; should be banned talk. No telling time, no counting change, keep measuring cup out of reach. Everyone enters school equally dumb, and school introduces numbers. Equity!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Slippery slope fallacy galore in this thread yep, giving some additional support to Black and Brown kids is going to end up in a dystopian future.

Giving some additional support is great, but the thread title says AAP should be eliminated. That's not giving extra support to kids who need it, it's taking away rigor from kids who are ready for it. In practice when the word equity is used the end result is bringing down the ceiling rather than raising the floor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are parents who read to their kids before going to bed. There are also kids who read to their parents before going to bed. And, there are parents and their kids who don't read at all at home.

On the path to equity, what should be done?

1) Restrict parents from reading to kids at home

2) Restrict kids from reading too many books at home

3) Restrict reading to school hours only so that every kid reads same amount

LOL. Restrict math talk in kitchen as well. If you give mommy one of your three crackers, how many do you have left; should be banned talk. No telling time, no counting change, keep measuring cup out of reach. Everyone enters school equally dumb, and school introduces numbers. Equity!

Also trips to museums and nature centers are not allowed. Actually, all travel is banned, you might learn something.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I found this article so moving:

https://tcf.org/content/commentary/gifted-talented-programs-not-path-equity/

And the arguments made are so compelling.

Don’t you agree this also applies to the AAP program? Should we find ways to phase it out, and offer the same opportunities to every learner in FCPS ?

I don’t know about “moving” but it’s certainly depressing.
But, certainly those who buy into equity as a societal goal would have to agree that curriculum tailored to individual learning needs (especially when targeting accelerated learners) has got to go eventually.
Next up will be music programs. (Is it fair that the ones who play in the top school bands and orchestras are the students who can afford to pay for private instruction? Well then we better not make placement in a top band or orchestra dependent upon an audition, because some kids have access to instruction that others don’t have and it is t fair.
The last domino to fall will be sports. But I suspect that’s where people will finally draw the line with this nonsense of equity.
I’m all about creating opportunities. But controlling for outcome is insane, as there are so many factors that can go into why/how someone is “successful” in a given area…
Opportunity is just one of those…but natural ability, Drive, dedication and commitment of time to practice your sport/craft/study are all valid factors as well.

Very well put.

In almost all areas of life, having money would give one an advantage. A motivated highly educated parent with high family income can help a child a lot more than economically disadvantaged parent. Tutors, private instruction, coaches all make it tough for lower income families to compete on an equal basis. Life is unfair.

The question is how to make it less unfair. The equity diehards think just eliminating tests, advanced academics, etc is the way to go because it is easy and it just masks the disadvantages.

No home work, no testing, less rigorous grading makes everyone look pretty equal.

They dont want to do the hard work. How about extra support? Additional period for children falling behind? How about private tutoring after school hours?

That takes too long. Instead they just spout DEI nonsense.

We have all that. Visit a lower income middle or high school and look at the staff parking lot. They are there 4 days a week with kids after school, in small group targeted remediation sessions, feeding kids “supper” to keep bellies full since late buses don’t come until 5 and kids got to school at 7. Elective blocks are taken with second math or reading classes, kids eat lunch in teachers’ rooms to be read to while eating since that has been shown to improve literacy. Staffing ratios are lower to keep classes more reasonable (25 kids vs 32). There are mentoring programs where staff volunteer to spend time and money showing these at risk kids things they haven’t gotten a chance to experience—sit down restaurants, a theater performance, visiting the monuments downtown.

It’s not enough. It will never be enough.

Life isn’t fair and it sucks but we cannot be everything to everyone.

Getting rid of testing isn’t the answer either, but the idea that decades of generational trauma and poverty can be overcome with an hour a day of one on one academic support for a few years isn’t an answer either.

We need to pay for high quality child care from birth.

I think everyone is missing the point. AAP is unfair to the kids in the middle. They don’t need remedial education or programs to overcome generational trauma, they just need a decent education in a safe environment and not to be stuck in classrooms full of behavior problems. All of the resources go to the rich “gifted” kids and the remedial and/or delinquent kids. What about the average kids? These are the kids who are actually being left behind.

I do not know every center or pyramid or ES, but where I am I have not seen “all of the resources go to rich “gifted” kids”. They don’t really get more resources where we are. Just more challenge.

I won’t say the current system is perfect but I also can’t say eliminating AAP solves the problems that exist in gen ed. If anything it makes them worse. Schools needs more money, lower ratios, and probably less in-class differentiation (not more) to improve gen ed.

Here here. Every kid will get what they need when we have more teachers, more money to pay teachers, and more space to put everyone. Right now, FCPS is doing the best they can do.

Disagree. More differentiation is needed, not less. Less only benefits the middle. The kids at either end of the curve aren’t getting instruction pertinent to their knowledge and capabilities. If teachers were able to teach smaller class sizes with a much narrower range of ability, they would be able to teach so much more effectively and efficiently. Even without a smaller class, having the narrow range of abilities is the answer

I am an above quoted PP who said “Schools needs more money, lower ratios, and probably less in-class differentiation (not more) to improve gen ed.”

When I say less in-class differentiation here I perhaps wasn’t clear that in my opinion differentiation expectations on a given gen ed teacher are already unreasonably high. Adding in another tier only exacerbates the issue, e.g. adding in AAP kids is yet another group a teacher has to give time to thereby reducing time to all others. More differentiation for students may be good but not in this model where one teacher is expected to differentiate to such a wide range. That fails even with the best, greatest teacher because it is just too much.