ECNL moving to school year part 2

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:After lurking on all the threads on this topic, it seems like the misaligned August/September players are in a dawned if you do, dawned if you don't situation.

Either they "play on grade" where since they'll be the youngest they should be happy with the B team.

Or they "play in their new age bracket" against players a full grade behind them but they'll never amount to much playing against younger players and won't be recruited.

Seems like what most people really want to for August/September kids to go find a different sport to play.

I can tell you that it is not as simple a choice for most misaligned players in that birth range as people on these threads make it seem. Trying to navigate to the best situation coaching wise, development wise, recruiting wise and socially is like trying to solve a rubik's cube that's had the squares switched.

Which is why leagues should have stepped up and taken the decision out of clubs/parents hands by saying that they recommend Aug/Sept players play on their grade in school team.

Weasels can still play down because there's no rule against it. But the direction would be clear and that is Aug/Sept birthdays play on their grade in school team.

But this is soccer if there wasnt drama and ambiguity it wouldnt be so appealing to play.

Shoulda could woulda.

Leagues picked August to July as an a group and aren't allowing playing down (other than MLSN1). Grade was not under discussion based on released deliberations. Teams in DMV aren't forcing kids to play on grade and are limiting playing up. Around here, the discussion is over.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Heres my family situation. My high flyer female with a decmber birthday and a potential in playing in college will age down for maximum visibility. My August boy who plays hg dev will stay with his age to be an older for the time ever. No aspirations other than playing good soccer and translating his level of travel to the hs game. Both win

I dont know if "age down" is the correct terminology although I get what you're saying. In BY your December birthday player was forced to play up a grade. Now since we're switching back to SY again they'll be grouped with players their grade in school which should be fun for them. This was/is the whole intent of switching back from BY to SY.

General fyi but did you know the reason BY works for other countries is because school cutoff for a certain grade is 1/1. However school start dates are usually around Aug Sept. When you think about it this makes it easier because all you need to do is ask a kid what year they were born and that tells you their grade in school. In America we combine school start date with cutoff date this is why BY doesnt work and SY better aligns all players to a specific grade here.

My December kid is in MLS Next and committed to a D1 school

I can't recall us having any discussions about school grade

Be obtuse if you want.

I guarantee at some point graduating year aka grade in school was discussed or your kids college coach wouldn't know what year to expect to see them on campus.

They of course knew his graduating year.

We provided that when we reached out and they also knew it before we gave them.

My point is that for his soccer development journey, school grade being different than his teammates was never an issue.

The situation is different now. Birth year created a situation where players in a specific grade had to play with kids in a higher grade because they missed the school cutoff. No one minded this because playing with kids in a higher grade feels more challenging and acceptable (of course depends on the players themselves being good, but just generally, a 9th grader playing with 10th graders was fine) College scouts looking at 10th graders might also see the 9th grader and just keep them in mind for the next recruiting year. All good there.

Now, you have a few months of kids who could potentially have to play with a team that is primarily a lower grade. So in this scenario, you have a 10th grader playing on a team full of 9th graders. College scouts aren't looking at 9th graders and probably aren't going to make a special trip over to a field full of 9th graders just to see the 1 or 2 10th graders.

It doesn't change the fact that most recruiting is done by the player/parents, with outreach and direct attendance at ID camps where coaches are - where of course you are aligned by graduation year. But the scenario above isn't really helping player development or recruiting - just clubs who potentially want to win more games. For younger grades, it's fine because maybe some smaller kids need more time in 7v7, 9v9 etc. But by high school, kids should be aligned with grad year if at all possible.

You do know the colleges are only looking at a few people to fill the small amount of available freshman spaces on their roster?

They aren't trawling the ocean

You are correct - it is such a small number that a kid playing with a younger grade will literally never end up playing college soccer. Hence the reason that even to have a remote chance, you have to play with your grad year.

The 10th grader with the skills, potential and attitude the college recruiter wants will get recruited if they are on a team with some 9th graders

Because the college recruiter is a soccer person, not guidance counselor

Why only play down in soccer?

Just hold your Aug birthday back in school and they'll be aligned and everything works. Why would you want to be s square peg trying to fit in a round hole.

Why do my child a disservice by holding them back in school while kids their age are a year advanced academically and in maturity?
Also, they can only play with their age group or up. So what's gained?
No one can play down

RAE says that being the oldest will give them an academic advantage over all the other students.

Or ore you one of those selective RAE people that only uses it to get what you want?

Wow, to brazenly flaunt ignorance and stupidity with such pride

So, my kid being the oldest in 9th grade learning Economics 1 while kids her age are doing Economics 2/3 in 10th grade is a win for her?

RAE says that oldest is always better. Its science.

You just dont like it when you cant use RAE to get what you want.

If I was a club owner I say sure your August birthday can play down a grade. You just need to hold them back.

Say you've never actually read a study on relative age effect without saying you've never actually read a study on relative age effect.

Dear D Student,
It's called RAE and not AE for a reason.

For your homework, lookup biological age vs calendar age to start.
For extra credit, lookup early maturation and early bloomers.

* not a single RAE study says all older kids have an advantage or gets selected primarily

I would think most studies don't speak in absolutes. Being the oldest in a cohort is a proven advantage. It's not really something to debate.

Regardless, what everyone is talking about here are the pros and cons that apply to a very small number of kids. What those kids decide to do will be up to them and the clubs. I think what most will agree with, is that most clubs won't force kids to play up. If they want to, and it makes sense, etc., then they can. Otherwise, it is up to the parents and the player to decide what they want to do and to weigh the pros and cons (that have been talked about ad nauseum here) and make a decision.

Being oldest is not an automatic proven advantage in soccer or academics.

Many younger players and students outperform older peers.
Stop saying silly stuff to score points

Who said "automatic" you silly goose?

"Being the oldest in a cohort is a proven advantage"

It is not automatic. Sorry for the confusion. It is not a true statement to say that if you're the oldest in a cohort, you will be the smarts, strongest, silliest, in the cohort. But when compared against their peers, the ones that are the smarts, strongest, and silliest usually (not always, its not automatic) tend to be the oldest. There are younger kids in that cohort that will be some of the ones that have all the S's, of course, but the SCieNce shows there is an advantage to being the oldest.

Good finally admitting your nonsense beliefs about rae arent soccer exclusive.

So this means if you're going to play your Aug birthday down a grade because of rae you're also going to hold your kid back in school because of rae.

Problem solved because they're playing on the correct grade in school team thats aligned with their school grade.

To be fair - I just jumped in this convo and it only took me one comment to course-correct. I wasn't the one who first started talking about RAE.

And I agree that is one way to solve the problem. Just hold the Aug. kid back. Might be a hard sell for someone already in HS, but if younger, it makes sense. It won't be for everyone, but it's a viable option.

Admitting you cant parent your kid to success so you gotta mess up their head by having all the kids in their neighborhood their age one grade ahead

Yup. You're right. Parents love messing up their kid's heads.

Right of passage

But some go way above and beyond

Its going to be interesting to see what happens with all the Aug-Dec players that were forced to play up a level/grade in BY. But this fall will be playing "down" on their grade in school team.

I expect them to dominate for 6 months. But after that clubs will get their claws into them forcing players to be the same as everyone else their grade.

My November kid will now be one of the oldest instead of the youngest and I can guarantee he won't be dominating anything

His talents won't magically miraculously change

He will be relatively better than his teammates under SY rather than BY with all else equal.

Older never equates to better in a skill based activity

Older participants, all else equal, are better relative to younger participants in a defined age group where improvements are gained with participants age via an accumulation of experience, physical traits and/or playing ability. Did you expect you son to have more skill switching from BY to SY? Because if you did and are now disappointed that would be on you for the misunderstanding.

This is not what research says. Actual numbers and research are below

https://medium.com/@giacorada/the-fascinating-birth-trend-among-professional-soccer-players-b2a48d015e7d

You just like the graph because it supports your position -- but there are so many holes to the study that even the author acknowledges and some that he doesn't -- like he doesn't discuss/account for how the US had both BY and SY for these players.

I love that graph.

It says August kids have a much better outcome being the oldest rather than the youngest even if a reasonable amount of the period studied was under BY and not all under SY.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Heres my family situation. My high flyer female with a decmber birthday and a potential in playing in college will age down for maximum visibility. My August boy who plays hg dev will stay with his age to be an older for the time ever. No aspirations other than playing good soccer and translating his level of travel to the hs game. Both win

I dont know if "age down" is the correct terminology although I get what you're saying. In BY your December birthday player was forced to play up a grade. Now since we're switching back to SY again they'll be grouped with players their grade in school which should be fun for them. This was/is the whole intent of switching back from BY to SY.

General fyi but did you know the reason BY works for other countries is because school cutoff for a certain grade is 1/1. However school start dates are usually around Aug Sept. When you think about it this makes it easier because all you need to do is ask a kid what year they were born and that tells you their grade in school. In America we combine school start date with cutoff date this is why BY doesnt work and SY better aligns all players to a specific grade here.

My December kid is in MLS Next and committed to a D1 school

I can't recall us having any discussions about school grade

Be obtuse if you want.

I guarantee at some point graduating year aka grade in school was discussed or your kids college coach wouldn't know what year to expect to see them on campus.

They of course knew his graduating year.

We provided that when we reached out and they also knew it before we gave them.

My point is that for his soccer development journey, school grade being different than his teammates was never an issue.

The situation is different now. Birth year created a situation where players in a specific grade had to play with kids in a higher grade because they missed the school cutoff. No one minded this because playing with kids in a higher grade feels more challenging and acceptable (of course depends on the players themselves being good, but just generally, a 9th grader playing with 10th graders was fine) College scouts looking at 10th graders might also see the 9th grader and just keep them in mind for the next recruiting year. All good there.

Now, you have a few months of kids who could potentially have to play with a team that is primarily a lower grade. So in this scenario, you have a 10th grader playing on a team full of 9th graders. College scouts aren't looking at 9th graders and probably aren't going to make a special trip over to a field full of 9th graders just to see the 1 or 2 10th graders.

It doesn't change the fact that most recruiting is done by the player/parents, with outreach and direct attendance at ID camps where coaches are - where of course you are aligned by graduation year. But the scenario above isn't really helping player development or recruiting - just clubs who potentially want to win more games. For younger grades, it's fine because maybe some smaller kids need more time in 7v7, 9v9 etc. But by high school, kids should be aligned with grad year if at all possible.

You do know the colleges are only looking at a few people to fill the small amount of available freshman spaces on their roster?

They aren't trawling the ocean

You are correct - it is such a small number that a kid playing with a younger grade will literally never end up playing college soccer. Hence the reason that even to have a remote chance, you have to play with your grad year.

The 10th grader with the skills, potential and attitude the college recruiter wants will get recruited if they are on a team with some 9th graders

Because the college recruiter is a soccer person, not guidance counselor

Why only play down in soccer?

Just hold your Aug birthday back in school and they'll be aligned and everything works. Why would you want to be s square peg trying to fit in a round hole.

Why do my child a disservice by holding them back in school while kids their age are a year advanced academically and in maturity?
Also, they can only play with their age group or up. So what's gained?
No one can play down

RAE says that being the oldest will give them an academic advantage over all the other students.

Or ore you one of those selective RAE people that only uses it to get what you want?

Wow, to brazenly flaunt ignorance and stupidity with such pride

So, my kid being the oldest in 9th grade learning Economics 1 while kids her age are doing Economics 2/3 in 10th grade is a win for her?

RAE says that oldest is always better. Its science.

You just dont like it when you cant use RAE to get what you want.

If I was a club owner I say sure your August birthday can play down a grade. You just need to hold them back.

Say you've never actually read a study on relative age effect without saying you've never actually read a study on relative age effect.

Dear D Student,
It's called RAE and not AE for a reason.

For your homework, lookup biological age vs calendar age to start.
For extra credit, lookup early maturation and early bloomers.

* not a single RAE study says all older kids have an advantage or gets selected primarily

I would think most studies don't speak in absolutes. Being the oldest in a cohort is a proven advantage. It's not really something to debate.

Regardless, what everyone is talking about here are the pros and cons that apply to a very small number of kids. What those kids decide to do will be up to them and the clubs. I think what most will agree with, is that most clubs won't force kids to play up. If they want to, and it makes sense, etc., then they can. Otherwise, it is up to the parents and the player to decide what they want to do and to weigh the pros and cons (that have been talked about ad nauseum here) and make a decision.

Being oldest is not an automatic proven advantage in soccer or academics.

Many younger players and students outperform older peers.
Stop saying silly stuff to score points

Who said "automatic" you silly goose?

"Being the oldest in a cohort is a proven advantage"

It is not automatic. Sorry for the confusion. It is not a true statement to say that if you're the oldest in a cohort, you will be the smarts, strongest, silliest, in the cohort. But when compared against their peers, the ones that are the smarts, strongest, and silliest usually (not always, its not automatic) tend to be the oldest. There are younger kids in that cohort that will be some of the ones that have all the S's, of course, but the SCieNce shows there is an advantage to being the oldest.

Good finally admitting your nonsense beliefs about rae arent soccer exclusive.

So this means if you're going to play your Aug birthday down a grade because of rae you're also going to hold your kid back in school because of rae.

Problem solved because they're playing on the correct grade in school team thats aligned with their school grade.

To be fair - I just jumped in this convo and it only took me one comment to course-correct. I wasn't the one who first started talking about RAE.

And I agree that is one way to solve the problem. Just hold the Aug. kid back. Might be a hard sell for someone already in HS, but if younger, it makes sense. It won't be for everyone, but it's a viable option.

Admitting you cant parent your kid to success so you gotta mess up their head by having all the kids in their neighborhood their age one grade ahead

Yup. You're right. Parents love messing up their kid's heads.

Right of passage

But some go way above and beyond

Its going to be interesting to see what happens with all the Aug-Dec players that were forced to play up a level/grade in BY. But this fall will be playing "down" on their grade in school team.

I expect them to dominate for 6 months. But after that clubs will get their claws into them forcing players to be the same as everyone else their grade.

My November kid will now be one of the oldest instead of the youngest and I can guarantee he won't be dominating anything

His talents won't magically miraculously change

He will be relatively better than his teammates under SY rather than BY with all else equal.

Older never equates to better in a skill based activity

Older participants, all else equal, are better relative to younger participants in a defined age group where improvements are gained with participants age via an accumulation of experience, physical traits and/or playing ability. Did you expect you son to have more skill switching from BY to SY? Because if you did and are now disappointed that would be on you for the misunderstanding.

This is not what research says. Actual numbers and research are below

https://medium.com/@giacorada/the-fascinating-birth-trend-among-professional-soccer-players-b2a48d015e7d

You just like the graph because it supports your position -- but there are so many holes to the study that even the author acknowledges and some that he doesn't -- like he doesn't discuss/account for how the US had both BY and SY for these players.

I love that graph.

It says August kids have a much better outcome being the oldest rather than the youngest even if a reasonable amount of the period studied was under BY and not all under SY.

I like that graph because it shows that rae doesnt apply in America. The authors option was p2p soccer made players birth month evenly distributed across the year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:After lurking on all the threads on this topic, it seems like the misaligned August/September players are in a dawned if you do, dawned if you don't situation.

Either they "play on grade" where since they'll be the youngest they should be happy with the B team.

Or they "play in their new age bracket" against players a full grade behind them but they'll never amount to much playing against younger players and won't be recruited.

Seems like what most people really want to for August/September kids to go find a different sport to play.

I can tell you that it is not as simple a choice for most misaligned players in that birth range as people on these threads make it seem. Trying to navigate to the best situation coaching wise, development wise, recruiting wise and socially is like trying to solve a rubik's cube that's had the squares switched.

Which is why leagues should have stepped up and taken the decision out of clubs/parents hands by saying that they recommend Aug/Sept players play on their grade in school team.

Weasels can still play down because there's no rule against it. But the direction would be clear and that is Aug/Sept birthdays play on their grade in school team.

But this is soccer if there wasnt drama and ambiguity it wouldnt be so appealing to play.

Shoulda could woulda.

Leagues picked August to July as an a group and aren't allowing playing down (other than MLSN1). Grade was not under discussion based on released deliberations. Teams in DMV aren't forcing kids to play on grade and are limiting playing up. Around here, the discussion is over.

Internally ECNL leadership has been telling DOCs to play Aug birthdays on their grade in school team. Instead of being sneaky control freaks they should communicate this externally so parents can plan accordingly.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Heres my family situation. My high flyer female with a decmber birthday and a potential in playing in college will age down for maximum visibility. My August boy who plays hg dev will stay with his age to be an older for the time ever. No aspirations other than playing good soccer and translating his level of travel to the hs game. Both win

I dont know if "age down" is the correct terminology although I get what you're saying. In BY your December birthday player was forced to play up a grade. Now since we're switching back to SY again they'll be grouped with players their grade in school which should be fun for them. This was/is the whole intent of switching back from BY to SY.

General fyi but did you know the reason BY works for other countries is because school cutoff for a certain grade is 1/1. However school start dates are usually around Aug Sept. When you think about it this makes it easier because all you need to do is ask a kid what year they were born and that tells you their grade in school. In America we combine school start date with cutoff date this is why BY doesnt work and SY better aligns all players to a specific grade here.

My December kid is in MLS Next and committed to a D1 school

I can't recall us having any discussions about school grade

Be obtuse if you want.

I guarantee at some point graduating year aka grade in school was discussed or your kids college coach wouldn't know what year to expect to see them on campus.

They of course knew his graduating year.

We provided that when we reached out and they also knew it before we gave them.

My point is that for his soccer development journey, school grade being different than his teammates was never an issue.

The situation is different now. Birth year created a situation where players in a specific grade had to play with kids in a higher grade because they missed the school cutoff. No one minded this because playing with kids in a higher grade feels more challenging and acceptable (of course depends on the players themselves being good, but just generally, a 9th grader playing with 10th graders was fine) College scouts looking at 10th graders might also see the 9th grader and just keep them in mind for the next recruiting year. All good there.

Now, you have a few months of kids who could potentially have to play with a team that is primarily a lower grade. So in this scenario, you have a 10th grader playing on a team full of 9th graders. College scouts aren't looking at 9th graders and probably aren't going to make a special trip over to a field full of 9th graders just to see the 1 or 2 10th graders.

It doesn't change the fact that most recruiting is done by the player/parents, with outreach and direct attendance at ID camps where coaches are - where of course you are aligned by graduation year. But the scenario above isn't really helping player development or recruiting - just clubs who potentially want to win more games. For younger grades, it's fine because maybe some smaller kids need more time in 7v7, 9v9 etc. But by high school, kids should be aligned with grad year if at all possible.

You do know the colleges are only looking at a few people to fill the small amount of available freshman spaces on their roster?

They aren't trawling the ocean

You are correct - it is such a small number that a kid playing with a younger grade will literally never end up playing college soccer. Hence the reason that even to have a remote chance, you have to play with your grad year.

The 10th grader with the skills, potential and attitude the college recruiter wants will get recruited if they are on a team with some 9th graders

Because the college recruiter is a soccer person, not guidance counselor

Why only play down in soccer?

Just hold your Aug birthday back in school and they'll be aligned and everything works. Why would you want to be s square peg trying to fit in a round hole.

Why do my child a disservice by holding them back in school while kids their age are a year advanced academically and in maturity?
Also, they can only play with their age group or up. So what's gained?
No one can play down

RAE says that being the oldest will give them an academic advantage over all the other students.

Or ore you one of those selective RAE people that only uses it to get what you want?

Wow, to brazenly flaunt ignorance and stupidity with such pride

So, my kid being the oldest in 9th grade learning Economics 1 while kids her age are doing Economics 2/3 in 10th grade is a win for her?

RAE says that oldest is always better. Its science.

You just dont like it when you cant use RAE to get what you want.

If I was a club owner I say sure your August birthday can play down a grade. You just need to hold them back.

Say you've never actually read a study on relative age effect without saying you've never actually read a study on relative age effect.

Dear D Student,
It's called RAE and not AE for a reason.

For your homework, lookup biological age vs calendar age to start.
For extra credit, lookup early maturation and early bloomers.

* not a single RAE study says all older kids have an advantage or gets selected primarily

I would think most studies don't speak in absolutes. Being the oldest in a cohort is a proven advantage. It's not really something to debate.

Regardless, what everyone is talking about here are the pros and cons that apply to a very small number of kids. What those kids decide to do will be up to them and the clubs. I think what most will agree with, is that most clubs won't force kids to play up. If they want to, and it makes sense, etc., then they can. Otherwise, it is up to the parents and the player to decide what they want to do and to weigh the pros and cons (that have been talked about ad nauseum here) and make a decision.

Being oldest is not an automatic proven advantage in soccer or academics.

Many younger players and students outperform older peers.
Stop saying silly stuff to score points

Who said "automatic" you silly goose?

"Being the oldest in a cohort is a proven advantage"

It is not automatic. Sorry for the confusion. It is not a true statement to say that if you're the oldest in a cohort, you will be the smarts, strongest, silliest, in the cohort. But when compared against their peers, the ones that are the smarts, strongest, and silliest usually (not always, its not automatic) tend to be the oldest. There are younger kids in that cohort that will be some of the ones that have all the S's, of course, but the SCieNce shows there is an advantage to being the oldest.

Good finally admitting your nonsense beliefs about rae arent soccer exclusive.

So this means if you're going to play your Aug birthday down a grade because of rae you're also going to hold your kid back in school because of rae.

Problem solved because they're playing on the correct grade in school team thats aligned with their school grade.

To be fair - I just jumped in this convo and it only took me one comment to course-correct. I wasn't the one who first started talking about RAE.

And I agree that is one way to solve the problem. Just hold the Aug. kid back. Might be a hard sell for someone already in HS, but if younger, it makes sense. It won't be for everyone, but it's a viable option.

Admitting you cant parent your kid to success so you gotta mess up their head by having all the kids in their neighborhood their age one grade ahead

Yup. You're right. Parents love messing up their kid's heads.

Right of passage

But some go way above and beyond

Its going to be interesting to see what happens with all the Aug-Dec players that were forced to play up a level/grade in BY. But this fall will be playing "down" on their grade in school team.

I expect them to dominate for 6 months. But after that clubs will get their claws into them forcing players to be the same as everyone else their grade.

My November kid will now be one of the oldest instead of the youngest and I can guarantee he won't be dominating anything

His talents won't magically miraculously change

He will be relatively better than his teammates under SY rather than BY with all else equal.

Older never equates to better in a skill based activity

Older participants, all else equal, are better relative to younger participants in a defined age group where improvements are gained with participants age via an accumulation of experience, physical traits and/or playing ability. Did you expect you son to have more skill switching from BY to SY? Because if you did and are now disappointed that would be on you for the misunderstanding.

This is not what research says. Actual numbers and research are below

https://medium.com/@giacorada/the-fascinating-birth-trend-among-professional-soccer-players-b2a48d015e7d

You just like the graph because it supports your position -- but there are so many holes to the study that even the author acknowledges and some that he doesn't -- like he doesn't discuss/account for how the US had both BY and SY for these players.

I love that graph.

It says August kids have a much better outcome being the oldest rather than the youngest even if a reasonable amount of the period studied was under BY and not all under SY.

I like that graph because it shows that rae doesnt apply in America. The authors option was p2p soccer made players birth month evenly distributed across the year.

Except the author assumed BY was in place for this data when it switched in 2017 from SY ...

"Unlike most European and South American countries, the US youth development structure is based on a “Pay-to-Play” model, which relies heavily on financial compensation from the players. In other words, it is a LOT more expensive to play for a youth team in the US than most other countries. The large yearly financial costs can deter many children from joining youth teams. So, while the US also uses the calendar year to determine age groups for youth players, the inevitably smaller pool of children willing/able to pay for youth soccer may cause the more balanced distribution we have witnessed above."

Such a huge confounder. Of course Aug would be big in the data. It was the oldest month before 2017 and most pros would be have played youth in that time peroid! Use your brain instead of being love with what you think it says!

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Heres my family situation. My high flyer female with a decmber birthday and a potential in playing in college will age down for maximum visibility. My August boy who plays hg dev will stay with his age to be an older for the time ever. No aspirations other than playing good soccer and translating his level of travel to the hs game. Both win

I dont know if "age down" is the correct terminology although I get what you're saying. In BY your December birthday player was forced to play up a grade. Now since we're switching back to SY again they'll be grouped with players their grade in school which should be fun for them. This was/is the whole intent of switching back from BY to SY.

General fyi but did you know the reason BY works for other countries is because school cutoff for a certain grade is 1/1. However school start dates are usually around Aug Sept. When you think about it this makes it easier because all you need to do is ask a kid what year they were born and that tells you their grade in school. In America we combine school start date with cutoff date this is why BY doesnt work and SY better aligns all players to a specific grade here.

My December kid is in MLS Next and committed to a D1 school

I can't recall us having any discussions about school grade

Be obtuse if you want.

I guarantee at some point graduating year aka grade in school was discussed or your kids college coach wouldn't know what year to expect to see them on campus.

They of course knew his graduating year.

We provided that when we reached out and they also knew it before we gave them.

My point is that for his soccer development journey, school grade being different than his teammates was never an issue.

The situation is different now. Birth year created a situation where players in a specific grade had to play with kids in a higher grade because they missed the school cutoff. No one minded this because playing with kids in a higher grade feels more challenging and acceptable (of course depends on the players themselves being good, but just generally, a 9th grader playing with 10th graders was fine) College scouts looking at 10th graders might also see the 9th grader and just keep them in mind for the next recruiting year. All good there.

Now, you have a few months of kids who could potentially have to play with a team that is primarily a lower grade. So in this scenario, you have a 10th grader playing on a team full of 9th graders. College scouts aren't looking at 9th graders and probably aren't going to make a special trip over to a field full of 9th graders just to see the 1 or 2 10th graders.

It doesn't change the fact that most recruiting is done by the player/parents, with outreach and direct attendance at ID camps where coaches are - where of course you are aligned by graduation year. But the scenario above isn't really helping player development or recruiting - just clubs who potentially want to win more games. For younger grades, it's fine because maybe some smaller kids need more time in 7v7, 9v9 etc. But by high school, kids should be aligned with grad year if at all possible.

You do know the colleges are only looking at a few people to fill the small amount of available freshman spaces on their roster?

They aren't trawling the ocean

You are correct - it is such a small number that a kid playing with a younger grade will literally never end up playing college soccer. Hence the reason that even to have a remote chance, you have to play with your grad year.

The 10th grader with the skills, potential and attitude the college recruiter wants will get recruited if they are on a team with some 9th graders

Because the college recruiter is a soccer person, not guidance counselor

Why only play down in soccer?

Just hold your Aug birthday back in school and they'll be aligned and everything works. Why would you want to be s square peg trying to fit in a round hole.

Why do my child a disservice by holding them back in school while kids their age are a year advanced academically and in maturity?
Also, they can only play with their age group or up. So what's gained?
No one can play down

RAE says that being the oldest will give them an academic advantage over all the other students.

Or ore you one of those selective RAE people that only uses it to get what you want?

Wow, to brazenly flaunt ignorance and stupidity with such pride

So, my kid being the oldest in 9th grade learning Economics 1 while kids her age are doing Economics 2/3 in 10th grade is a win for her?

RAE says that oldest is always better. Its science.

You just dont like it when you cant use RAE to get what you want.

If I was a club owner I say sure your August birthday can play down a grade. You just need to hold them back.

Say you've never actually read a study on relative age effect without saying you've never actually read a study on relative age effect.

Dear D Student,
It's called RAE and not AE for a reason.

For your homework, lookup biological age vs calendar age to start.
For extra credit, lookup early maturation and early bloomers.

* not a single RAE study says all older kids have an advantage or gets selected primarily

I would think most studies don't speak in absolutes. Being the oldest in a cohort is a proven advantage. It's not really something to debate.

Regardless, what everyone is talking about here are the pros and cons that apply to a very small number of kids. What those kids decide to do will be up to them and the clubs. I think what most will agree with, is that most clubs won't force kids to play up. If they want to, and it makes sense, etc., then they can. Otherwise, it is up to the parents and the player to decide what they want to do and to weigh the pros and cons (that have been talked about ad nauseum here) and make a decision.

Being oldest is not an automatic proven advantage in soccer or academics.

Many younger players and students outperform older peers.
Stop saying silly stuff to score points

Who said "automatic" you silly goose?

"Being the oldest in a cohort is a proven advantage"

It is not automatic. Sorry for the confusion. It is not a true statement to say that if you're the oldest in a cohort, you will be the smarts, strongest, silliest, in the cohort. But when compared against their peers, the ones that are the smarts, strongest, and silliest usually (not always, its not automatic) tend to be the oldest. There are younger kids in that cohort that will be some of the ones that have all the S's, of course, but the SCieNce shows there is an advantage to being the oldest.

Good finally admitting your nonsense beliefs about rae arent soccer exclusive.

So this means if you're going to play your Aug birthday down a grade because of rae you're also going to hold your kid back in school because of rae.

Problem solved because they're playing on the correct grade in school team thats aligned with their school grade.

To be fair - I just jumped in this convo and it only took me one comment to course-correct. I wasn't the one who first started talking about RAE.

And I agree that is one way to solve the problem. Just hold the Aug. kid back. Might be a hard sell for someone already in HS, but if younger, it makes sense. It won't be for everyone, but it's a viable option.

Admitting you cant parent your kid to success so you gotta mess up their head by having all the kids in their neighborhood their age one grade ahead

Yup. You're right. Parents love messing up their kid's heads.

Right of passage

But some go way above and beyond

Its going to be interesting to see what happens with all the Aug-Dec players that were forced to play up a level/grade in BY. But this fall will be playing "down" on their grade in school team.

I expect them to dominate for 6 months. But after that clubs will get their claws into them forcing players to be the same as everyone else their grade.

My November kid will now be one of the oldest instead of the youngest and I can guarantee he won't be dominating anything

His talents won't magically miraculously change

He will be relatively better than his teammates under SY rather than BY with all else equal.

Older never equates to better in a skill based activity

Older participants, all else equal, are better relative to younger participants in a defined age group where improvements are gained with participants age via an accumulation of experience, physical traits and/or playing ability. Did you expect you son to have more skill switching from BY to SY? Because if you did and are now disappointed that would be on you for the misunderstanding.

This is not what research says. Actual numbers and research are below

https://medium.com/@giacorada/the-fascinating-birth-trend-among-professional-soccer-players-b2a48d015e7d

You just like the graph because it supports your position -- but there are so many holes to the study that even the author acknowledges and some that he doesn't -- like he doesn't discuss/account for how the US had both BY and SY for these players.

I love that graph.

It says August kids have a much better outcome being the oldest rather than the youngest even if a reasonable amount of the period studied was under BY and not all under SY.

I like that graph because it shows that rae doesnt apply in America. The authors option was p2p soccer made players birth month evenly distributed across the year.

That's not even, dude.

August births have about a 25 percent higher chance of playing pro soccer compared to June births. And Jan births have a similar advantage over Dec births.

The advantage is less pronounced than foreign leagues because the US graph has both SY and BY time periods but anyone in their right mind would take the minimum 25 percent greater chance to go pro as the oldest rather than being younger in an age bracket.

With younger kids in an age group quiting soccer at higher rates. The smart money is on being the oldest in an age group. May, June and July just got shafted and Jan, Feb and Mar just had their free ride removed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:After lurking on all the threads on this topic, it seems like the misaligned August/September players are in a dawned if you do, dawned if you don't situation.

Either they "play on grade" where since they'll be the youngest they should be happy with the B team.

Or they "play in their new age bracket" against players a full grade behind them but they'll never amount to much playing against younger players and won't be recruited.

Seems like what most people really want to for August/September kids to go find a different sport to play.

I can tell you that it is not as simple a choice for most misaligned players in that birth range as people on these threads make it seem. Trying to navigate to the best situation coaching wise, development wise, recruiting wise and socially is like trying to solve a rubik's cube that's had the squares switched.

Which is why leagues should have stepped up and taken the decision out of clubs/parents hands by saying that they recommend Aug/Sept players play on their grade in school team.

Weasels can still play down because there's no rule against it. But the direction would be clear and that is Aug/Sept birthdays play on their grade in school team.

But this is soccer if there wasnt drama and ambiguity it wouldnt be so appealing to play.

Shoulda could woulda.

Leagues picked August to July as an a group and aren't allowing playing down (other than MLSN1). Grade was not under discussion based on released deliberations. Teams in DMV aren't forcing kids to play on grade and are limiting playing up. Around here, the discussion is over.

Internally ECNL leadership has been telling DOCs to play Aug birthdays on their grade in school team. Instead of being sneaky control freaks they should communicate this externally so parents can plan accordingly.

I guess not all ECNL clubs got or agree with the memo ...

This club -- Sporting Blue Valley which offers MLSN and ECNL in Kansas - from page 15 of their presentation:

"School Grade is Irrelevant: It is much easier to consider the new age-group
placement as relative to the August 1st cutoff and is not tied to their school grade
level (whether they have been held back or are ahead)."

Page 19

"Can players play up a grade level?
SURVEY - Playing Up
SBV will retain the same policy we’ve always had: A player may play up an age
group only if they make the top team in that older division.
❖ Exceptions: Exceptions are rare and reserved for specific Goalkeeper situations
or to combine two small player pools to form a viable team.
Why we aren't delaying the changes:
❖ We have chosen to "rip the Band-Aid off" rather than kick the can down the road.
❖ While we could artificially keep current teams together by moving everyone to
an older age group, we would eventually be forced to fix it.
❖ We believe it is better to realign correctly now. This avoids years of confusion
and temporary fixes, ensuring every player is on the correct long-term
development path immediately"

https://storage.googleapis.com/msgsndr/YNEbnN...173966b1e3b3b9c2.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:After lurking on all the threads on this topic, it seems like the misaligned August/September players are in a dawned if you do, dawned if you don't situation.

Either they "play on grade" where since they'll be the youngest they should be happy with the B team.

Or they "play in their new age bracket" against players a full grade behind them but they'll never amount to much playing against younger players and won't be recruited.

Seems like what most people really want to for August/September kids to go find a different sport to play.

I can tell you that it is not as simple a choice for most misaligned players in that birth range as people on these threads make it seem. Trying to navigate to the best situation coaching wise, development wise, recruiting wise and socially is like trying to solve a rubik's cube that's had the squares switched.

Which is why leagues should have stepped up and taken the decision out of clubs/parents hands by saying that they recommend Aug/Sept players play on their grade in school team.

Weasels can still play down because there's no rule against it. But the direction would be clear and that is Aug/Sept birthdays play on their grade in school team.

But this is soccer if there wasnt drama and ambiguity it wouldnt be so appealing to play.

Shoulda could woulda.

Leagues picked August to July as an a group and aren't allowing playing down (other than MLSN1). Grade was not under discussion based on released deliberations. Teams in DMV aren't forcing kids to play on grade and are limiting playing up. Around here, the discussion is over.

Internally ECNL leadership has been telling DOCs to play Aug birthdays on their grade in school team. Instead of being sneaky control freaks they should communicate this externally so parents can plan accordingly.

Well if true (and it isn't) clubs in DC area not listening. They are following the more public ECNL advice saying playing up should only be for those that could dominate an age group up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:After lurking on all the threads on this topic, it seems like the misaligned August/September players are in a dawned if you do, dawned if you don't situation.

Either they "play on grade" where since they'll be the youngest they should be happy with the B team.

Or they "play in their new age bracket" against players a full grade behind them but they'll never amount to much playing against younger players and won't be recruited.

Seems like what most people really want to for August/September kids to go find a different sport to play.

I can tell you that it is not as simple a choice for most misaligned players in that birth range as people on these threads make it seem. Trying to navigate to the best situation coaching wise, development wise, recruiting wise and socially is like trying to solve a rubik's cube that's had the squares switched.

Which is why leagues should have stepped up and taken the decision out of clubs/parents hands by saying that they recommend Aug/Sept players play on their grade in school team.

Weasels can still play down because there's no rule against it. But the direction would be clear and that is Aug/Sept birthdays play on their grade in school team.

But this is soccer if there wasnt drama and ambiguity it wouldnt be so appealing to play.

Shoulda could woulda.

Leagues picked August to July as an a group and aren't allowing playing down (other than MLSN1). Grade was not under discussion based on released deliberations. Teams in DMV aren't forcing kids to play on grade and are limiting playing up. Around here, the discussion is over.

Internally ECNL leadership has been telling DOCs to play Aug birthdays on their grade in school team. Instead of being sneaky control freaks they should communicate this externally so parents can plan accordingly.

Well if true (and it isn't) clubs in DC area not listening. They are following the more public ECNL advice saying playing up should only be for those that could dominate an age group up.

It is true whether you choose to believe it or not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:After lurking on all the threads on this topic, it seems like the misaligned August/September players are in a dawned if you do, dawned if you don't situation.

Either they "play on grade" where since they'll be the youngest they should be happy with the B team.

Or they "play in their new age bracket" against players a full grade behind them but they'll never amount to much playing against younger players and won't be recruited.

Seems like what most people really want to for August/September kids to go find a different sport to play.

I can tell you that it is not as simple a choice for most misaligned players in that birth range as people on these threads make it seem. Trying to navigate to the best situation coaching wise, development wise, recruiting wise and socially is like trying to solve a rubik's cube that's had the squares switched.

Which is why leagues should have stepped up and taken the decision out of clubs/parents hands by saying that they recommend Aug/Sept players play on their grade in school team.

Weasels can still play down because there's no rule against it. But the direction would be clear and that is Aug/Sept birthdays play on their grade in school team.

But this is soccer if there wasnt drama and ambiguity it wouldnt be so appealing to play.

Shoulda could woulda.

Leagues picked August to July as an a group and aren't allowing playing down (other than MLSN1). Grade was not under discussion based on released deliberations. Teams in DMV aren't forcing kids to play on grade and are limiting playing up. Around here, the discussion is over.

Internally ECNL leadership has been telling DOCs to play Aug birthdays on their grade in school team. Instead of being sneaky control freaks they should communicate this externally so parents can plan accordingly.

Well if true (and it isn't) clubs in DC area not listening. They are following the more public ECNL advice saying playing up should only be for those that could dominate an age group up.

It is true whether you choose to believe it or not.

Even if true, they'll still be misaligned players from other months. You can never truly fix it unless you do GY.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:After lurking on all the threads on this topic, it seems like the misaligned August/September players are in a dawned if you do, dawned if you don't situation.

Either they "play on grade" where since they'll be the youngest they should be happy with the B team.

Or they "play in their new age bracket" against players a full grade behind them but they'll never amount to much playing against younger players and won't be recruited.

Seems like what most people really want to for August/September kids to go find a different sport to play.

I can tell you that it is not as simple a choice for most misaligned players in that birth range as people on these threads make it seem. Trying to navigate to the best situation coaching wise, development wise, recruiting wise and socially is like trying to solve a rubik's cube that's had the squares switched.

Which is why leagues should have stepped up and taken the decision out of clubs/parents hands by saying that they recommend Aug/Sept players play on their grade in school team.

Weasels can still play down because there's no rule against it. But the direction would be clear and that is Aug/Sept birthdays play on their grade in school team.

But this is soccer if there wasnt drama and ambiguity it wouldnt be so appealing to play.

Shoulda could woulda.

Leagues picked August to July as an a group and aren't allowing playing down (other than MLSN1). Grade was not under discussion based on released deliberations. Teams in DMV aren't forcing kids to play on grade and are limiting playing up. Around here, the discussion is over.

Internally ECNL leadership has been telling DOCs to play Aug birthdays on their grade in school team. Instead of being sneaky control freaks they should communicate this externally so parents can plan accordingly.

Well if true (and it isn't) clubs in DC area not listening. They are following the more public ECNL advice saying playing up should only be for those that could dominate an age group up.

It is true whether you choose to believe it or not.

Even if true, they'll still be misaligned players from other months. You can never truly fix it unless you do GY.

And weird for them to target August births but ignore September and October. Just not believable especially when there isn't an accepted way to collect and verify grades across the country and certain ECNL teams would be at a disadvantage based on their school cutoffs. Explains why no proof has been given. Seems like a I heard from a guy who wanted rather than a thing that actually occurred.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Heres my family situation. My high flyer female with a decmber birthday and a potential in playing in college will age down for maximum visibility. My August boy who plays hg dev will stay with his age to be an older for the time ever. No aspirations other than playing good soccer and translating his level of travel to the hs game. Both win

I dont know if "age down" is the correct terminology although I get what you're saying. In BY your December birthday player was forced to play up a grade. Now since we're switching back to SY again they'll be grouped with players their grade in school which should be fun for them. This was/is the whole intent of switching back from BY to SY.

General fyi but did you know the reason BY works for other countries is because school cutoff for a certain grade is 1/1. However school start dates are usually around Aug Sept. When you think about it this makes it easier because all you need to do is ask a kid what year they were born and that tells you their grade in school. In America we combine school start date with cutoff date this is why BY doesnt work and SY better aligns all players to a specific grade here.

My December kid is in MLS Next and committed to a D1 school

I can't recall us having any discussions about school grade

Be obtuse if you want.

I guarantee at some point graduating year aka grade in school was discussed or your kids college coach wouldn't know what year to expect to see them on campus.

They of course knew his graduating year.

We provided that when we reached out and they also knew it before we gave them.

My point is that for his soccer development journey, school grade being different than his teammates was never an issue.

The situation is different now. Birth year created a situation where players in a specific grade had to play with kids in a higher grade because they missed the school cutoff. No one minded this because playing with kids in a higher grade feels more challenging and acceptable (of course depends on the players themselves being good, but just generally, a 9th grader playing with 10th graders was fine) College scouts looking at 10th graders might also see the 9th grader and just keep them in mind for the next recruiting year. All good there.

Now, you have a few months of kids who could potentially have to play with a team that is primarily a lower grade. So in this scenario, you have a 10th grader playing on a team full of 9th graders. College scouts aren't looking at 9th graders and probably aren't going to make a special trip over to a field full of 9th graders just to see the 1 or 2 10th graders.

It doesn't change the fact that most recruiting is done by the player/parents, with outreach and direct attendance at ID camps where coaches are - where of course you are aligned by graduation year. But the scenario above isn't really helping player development or recruiting - just clubs who potentially want to win more games. For younger grades, it's fine because maybe some smaller kids need more time in 7v7, 9v9 etc. But by high school, kids should be aligned with grad year if at all possible.

You do know the colleges are only looking at a few people to fill the small amount of available freshman spaces on their roster?

They aren't trawling the ocean

You are correct - it is such a small number that a kid playing with a younger grade will literally never end up playing college soccer. Hence the reason that even to have a remote chance, you have to play with your grad year.

The 10th grader with the skills, potential and attitude the college recruiter wants will get recruited if they are on a team with some 9th graders

Because the college recruiter is a soccer person, not guidance counselor

Why only play down in soccer?

Just hold your Aug birthday back in school and they'll be aligned and everything works. Why would you want to be s square peg trying to fit in a round hole.

Why do my child a disservice by holding them back in school while kids their age are a year advanced academically and in maturity?
Also, they can only play with their age group or up. So what's gained?
No one can play down

RAE says that being the oldest will give them an academic advantage over all the other students.

Or ore you one of those selective RAE people that only uses it to get what you want?

Wow, to brazenly flaunt ignorance and stupidity with such pride

So, my kid being the oldest in 9th grade learning Economics 1 while kids her age are doing Economics 2/3 in 10th grade is a win for her?

RAE says that oldest is always better. Its science.

You just dont like it when you cant use RAE to get what you want.

If I was a club owner I say sure your August birthday can play down a grade. You just need to hold them back.

Say you've never actually read a study on relative age effect without saying you've never actually read a study on relative age effect.

Dear D Student,
It's called RAE and not AE for a reason.

For your homework, lookup biological age vs calendar age to start.
For extra credit, lookup early maturation and early bloomers.

* not a single RAE study says all older kids have an advantage or gets selected primarily

I would think most studies don't speak in absolutes. Being the oldest in a cohort is a proven advantage. It's not really something to debate.

Regardless, what everyone is talking about here are the pros and cons that apply to a very small number of kids. What those kids decide to do will be up to them and the clubs. I think what most will agree with, is that most clubs won't force kids to play up. If they want to, and it makes sense, etc., then they can. Otherwise, it is up to the parents and the player to decide what they want to do and to weigh the pros and cons (that have been talked about ad nauseum here) and make a decision.

Being oldest is not an automatic proven advantage in soccer or academics.

Many younger players and students outperform older peers.
Stop saying silly stuff to score points

Who said "automatic" you silly goose?

"Being the oldest in a cohort is a proven advantage"

It is not automatic. Sorry for the confusion. It is not a true statement to say that if you're the oldest in a cohort, you will be the smarts, strongest, silliest, in the cohort. But when compared against their peers, the ones that are the smarts, strongest, and silliest usually (not always, its not automatic) tend to be the oldest. There are younger kids in that cohort that will be some of the ones that have all the S's, of course, but the SCieNce shows there is an advantage to being the oldest.

Good finally admitting your nonsense beliefs about rae arent soccer exclusive.

So this means if you're going to play your Aug birthday down a grade because of rae you're also going to hold your kid back in school because of rae.

Problem solved because they're playing on the correct grade in school team thats aligned with their school grade.

To be fair - I just jumped in this convo and it only took me one comment to course-correct. I wasn't the one who first started talking about RAE.

And I agree that is one way to solve the problem. Just hold the Aug. kid back. Might be a hard sell for someone already in HS, but if younger, it makes sense. It won't be for everyone, but it's a viable option.

Admitting you cant parent your kid to success so you gotta mess up their head by having all the kids in their neighborhood their age one grade ahead

Yup. You're right. Parents love messing up their kid's heads.

Right of passage

But some go way above and beyond

Its going to be interesting to see what happens with all the Aug-Dec players that were forced to play up a level/grade in BY. But this fall will be playing "down" on their grade in school team.

I expect them to dominate for 6 months. But after that clubs will get their claws into them forcing players to be the same as everyone else their grade.

My November kid will now be one of the oldest instead of the youngest and I can guarantee he won't be dominating anything

His talents won't magically miraculously change

He will be relatively better than his teammates under SY rather than BY with all else equal.

Older never equates to better in a skill based activity

Older participants, all else equal, are better relative to younger participants in a defined age group where improvements are gained with participants age via an accumulation of experience, physical traits and/or playing ability. Did you expect you son to have more skill switching from BY to SY? Because if you did and are now disappointed that would be on you for the misunderstanding.

This is not what research says. Actual numbers and research are below

https://medium.com/@giacorada/the-fascinating-birth-trend-among-professional-soccer-players-b2a48d015e7d

You just like the graph because it supports your position -- but there are so many holes to the study that even the author acknowledges and some that he doesn't -- like he doesn't discuss/account for how the US had both BY and SY for these players.

I love that graph.

It says August kids have a much better outcome being the oldest rather than the youngest even if a reasonable amount of the period studied was under BY and not all under SY.

I like that graph because it shows that rae doesnt apply in America. The authors option was p2p soccer made players birth month evenly distributed across the year.

If everyone looked at their kids MLS Next team or ECNL team roster right now, none of them would show August birth month as most represented

Go ahead

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:After lurking on all the threads on this topic, it seems like the misaligned August/September players are in a dawned if you do, dawned if you don't situation.

Either they "play on grade" where since they'll be the youngest they should be happy with the B team.

Or they "play in their new age bracket" against players a full grade behind them but they'll never amount to much playing against younger players and won't be recruited.

Seems like what most people really want to for August/September kids to go find a different sport to play.

I can tell you that it is not as simple a choice for most misaligned players in that birth range as people on these threads make it seem. Trying to navigate to the best situation coaching wise, development wise, recruiting wise and socially is like trying to solve a rubik's cube that's had the squares switched.

Which is why leagues should have stepped up and taken the decision out of clubs/parents hands by saying that they recommend Aug/Sept players play on their grade in school team.

Weasels can still play down because there's no rule against it. But the direction would be clear and that is Aug/Sept birthdays play on their grade in school team.

But this is soccer if there wasnt drama and ambiguity it wouldnt be so appealing to play.

Shoulda could woulda.

Leagues picked August to July as an a group and aren't allowing playing down (other than MLSN1). Grade was not under discussion based on released deliberations. Teams in DMV aren't forcing kids to play on grade and are limiting playing up. Around here, the discussion is over.

Internally ECNL leadership has been telling DOCs to play Aug birthdays on their grade in school team. Instead of being sneaky control freaks they should communicate this externally so parents can plan accordingly.

Well if true (and it isn't) clubs in DC area not listening. They are following the more public ECNL advice saying playing up should only be for those that could dominate an age group up.

It is true whether you choose to believe it or not.

Even if true, they'll still be misaligned players from other months. You can never truly fix it unless you do GY.

And weird for them to target August births but ignore September and October. Just not believable especially when there isn't an accepted way to collect and verify grades across the country and certain ECNL teams would be at a disadvantage based on their school cutoffs. Explains why no proof has been given. Seems like a I heard from a guy who wanted rather than a thing that actually occurred.

August birthdays is a colloquialism used for all players that are a grade up in school but an grade down in the SY eligibility window of 8/1-7/31. You cant go through every possible configuration every time when discussing August birthdays.

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Anonymous wrote:Heres my family situation. My high flyer female with a decmber birthday and a potential in playing in college will age down for maximum visibility. My August boy who plays hg dev will stay with his age to be an older for the time ever. No aspirations other than playing good soccer and translating his level of travel to the hs game. Both win

I dont know if "age down" is the correct terminology although I get what you're saying. In BY your December birthday player was forced to play up a grade. Now since we're switching back to SY again they'll be grouped with players their grade in school which should be fun for them. This was/is the whole intent of switching back from BY to SY.

General fyi but did you know the reason BY works for other countries is because school cutoff for a certain grade is 1/1. However school start dates are usually around Aug Sept. When you think about it this makes it easier because all you need to do is ask a kid what year they were born and that tells you their grade in school. In America we combine school start date with cutoff date this is why BY doesnt work and SY better aligns all players to a specific grade here.

My December kid is in MLS Next and committed to a D1 school

I can't recall us having any discussions about school grade

Be obtuse if you want.

I guarantee at some point graduating year aka grade in school was discussed or your kids college coach wouldn't know what year to expect to see them on campus.

They of course knew his graduating year.

We provided that when we reached out and they also knew it before we gave them.

My point is that for his soccer development journey, school grade being different than his teammates was never an issue.

The situation is different now. Birth year created a situation where players in a specific grade had to play with kids in a higher grade because they missed the school cutoff. No one minded this because playing with kids in a higher grade feels more challenging and acceptable (of course depends on the players themselves being good, but just generally, a 9th grader playing with 10th graders was fine) College scouts looking at 10th graders might also see the 9th grader and just keep them in mind for the next recruiting year. All good there.

Now, you have a few months of kids who could potentially have to play with a team that is primarily a lower grade. So in this scenario, you have a 10th grader playing on a team full of 9th graders. College scouts aren't looking at 9th graders and probably aren't going to make a special trip over to a field full of 9th graders just to see the 1 or 2 10th graders.

It doesn't change the fact that most recruiting is done by the player/parents, with outreach and direct attendance at ID camps where coaches are - where of course you are aligned by graduation year. But the scenario above isn't really helping player development or recruiting - just clubs who potentially want to win more games. For younger grades, it's fine because maybe some smaller kids need more time in 7v7, 9v9 etc. But by high school, kids should be aligned with grad year if at all possible.

You do know the colleges are only looking at a few people to fill the small amount of available freshman spaces on their roster?

They aren't trawling the ocean

You are correct - it is such a small number that a kid playing with a younger grade will literally never end up playing college soccer. Hence the reason that even to have a remote chance, you have to play with your grad year.

The 10th grader with the skills, potential and attitude the college recruiter wants will get recruited if they are on a team with some 9th graders

Because the college recruiter is a soccer person, not guidance counselor

Why only play down in soccer?

Just hold your Aug birthday back in school and they'll be aligned and everything works. Why would you want to be s square peg trying to fit in a round hole.

Why do my child a disservice by holding them back in school while kids their age are a year advanced academically and in maturity?
Also, they can only play with their age group or up. So what's gained?
No one can play down

RAE says that being the oldest will give them an academic advantage over all the other students.

Or ore you one of those selective RAE people that only uses it to get what you want?

Wow, to brazenly flaunt ignorance and stupidity with such pride

So, my kid being the oldest in 9th grade learning Economics 1 while kids her age are doing Economics 2/3 in 10th grade is a win for her?

RAE says that oldest is always better. Its science.

You just dont like it when you cant use RAE to get what you want.

If I was a club owner I say sure your August birthday can play down a grade. You just need to hold them back.

Say you've never actually read a study on relative age effect without saying you've never actually read a study on relative age effect.

Dear D Student,
It's called RAE and not AE for a reason.

For your homework, lookup biological age vs calendar age to start.
For extra credit, lookup early maturation and early bloomers.

* not a single RAE study says all older kids have an advantage or gets selected primarily

I would think most studies don't speak in absolutes. Being the oldest in a cohort is a proven advantage. It's not really something to debate.

Regardless, what everyone is talking about here are the pros and cons that apply to a very small number of kids. What those kids decide to do will be up to them and the clubs. I think what most will agree with, is that most clubs won't force kids to play up. If they want to, and it makes sense, etc., then they can. Otherwise, it is up to the parents and the player to decide what they want to do and to weigh the pros and cons (that have been talked about ad nauseum here) and make a decision.

Being oldest is not an automatic proven advantage in soccer or academics.

Many younger players and students outperform older peers.
Stop saying silly stuff to score points

Who said "automatic" you silly goose?

"Being the oldest in a cohort is a proven advantage"

It is not automatic. Sorry for the confusion. It is not a true statement to say that if you're the oldest in a cohort, you will be the smarts, strongest, silliest, in the cohort. But when compared against their peers, the ones that are the smarts, strongest, and silliest usually (not always, its not automatic) tend to be the oldest. There are younger kids in that cohort that will be some of the ones that have all the S's, of course, but the SCieNce shows there is an advantage to being the oldest.

Good finally admitting your nonsense beliefs about rae arent soccer exclusive.

So this means if you're going to play your Aug birthday down a grade because of rae you're also going to hold your kid back in school because of rae.

Problem solved because they're playing on the correct grade in school team thats aligned with their school grade.

To be fair - I just jumped in this convo and it only took me one comment to course-correct. I wasn't the one who first started talking about RAE.

And I agree that is one way to solve the problem. Just hold the Aug. kid back. Might be a hard sell for someone already in HS, but if younger, it makes sense. It won't be for everyone, but it's a viable option.

Admitting you cant parent your kid to success so you gotta mess up their head by having all the kids in their neighborhood their age one grade ahead

Yup. You're right. Parents love messing up their kid's heads.

Right of passage

But some go way above and beyond

Its going to be interesting to see what happens with all the Aug-Dec players that were forced to play up a level/grade in BY. But this fall will be playing "down" on their grade in school team.

I expect them to dominate for 6 months. But after that clubs will get their claws into them forcing players to be the same as everyone else their grade.

My November kid will now be one of the oldest instead of the youngest and I can guarantee he won't be dominating anything

His talents won't magically miraculously change

He will be relatively better than his teammates under SY rather than BY with all else equal.

Older never equates to better in a skill based activity

Older participants, all else equal, are better relative to younger participants in a defined age group where improvements are gained with participants age via an accumulation of experience, physical traits and/or playing ability. Did you expect you son to have more skill switching from BY to SY? Because if you did and are now disappointed that would be on you for the misunderstanding.

This is not what research says. Actual numbers and research are below

https://medium.com/@giacorada/the-fascinating-birth-trend-among-professional-soccer-players-b2a48d015e7d

You just like the graph because it supports your position -- but there are so many holes to the study that even the author acknowledges and some that he doesn't -- like he doesn't discuss/account for how the US had both BY and SY for these players.

I love that graph.

It says August kids have a much better outcome being the oldest rather than the youngest even if a reasonable amount of the period studied was under BY and not all under SY.

I like that graph because it shows that rae doesnt apply in America. The authors option was p2p soccer made players birth month evenly distributed across the year.

If everyone looked at their kids MLS Next team or ECNL team roster right now, none of them would show August birth month as most represented

Go ahead

The dataset used was pro players.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Heres my family situation. My high flyer female with a decmber birthday and a potential in playing in college will age down for maximum visibility. My August boy who plays hg dev will stay with his age to be an older for the time ever. No aspirations other than playing good soccer and translating his level of travel to the hs game. Both win

I dont know if "age down" is the correct terminology although I get what you're saying. In BY your December birthday player was forced to play up a grade. Now since we're switching back to SY again they'll be grouped with players their grade in school which should be fun for them. This was/is the whole intent of switching back from BY to SY.

General fyi but did you know the reason BY works for other countries is because school cutoff for a certain grade is 1/1. However school start dates are usually around Aug Sept. When you think about it this makes it easier because all you need to do is ask a kid what year they were born and that tells you their grade in school. In America we combine school start date with cutoff date this is why BY doesnt work and SY better aligns all players to a specific grade here.

My December kid is in MLS Next and committed to a D1 school

I can't recall us having any discussions about school grade

Be obtuse if you want.

I guarantee at some point graduating year aka grade in school was discussed or your kids college coach wouldn't know what year to expect to see them on campus.

They of course knew his graduating year.

We provided that when we reached out and they also knew it before we gave them.

My point is that for his soccer development journey, school grade being different than his teammates was never an issue.

The situation is different now. Birth year created a situation where players in a specific grade had to play with kids in a higher grade because they missed the school cutoff. No one minded this because playing with kids in a higher grade feels more challenging and acceptable (of course depends on the players themselves being good, but just generally, a 9th grader playing with 10th graders was fine) College scouts looking at 10th graders might also see the 9th grader and just keep them in mind for the next recruiting year. All good there.

Now, you have a few months of kids who could potentially have to play with a team that is primarily a lower grade. So in this scenario, you have a 10th grader playing on a team full of 9th graders. College scouts aren't looking at 9th graders and probably aren't going to make a special trip over to a field full of 9th graders just to see the 1 or 2 10th graders.

It doesn't change the fact that most recruiting is done by the player/parents, with outreach and direct attendance at ID camps where coaches are - where of course you are aligned by graduation year. But the scenario above isn't really helping player development or recruiting - just clubs who potentially want to win more games. For younger grades, it's fine because maybe some smaller kids need more time in 7v7, 9v9 etc. But by high school, kids should be aligned with grad year if at all possible.

You do know the colleges are only looking at a few people to fill the small amount of available freshman spaces on their roster?

They aren't trawling the ocean

You are correct - it is such a small number that a kid playing with a younger grade will literally never end up playing college soccer. Hence the reason that even to have a remote chance, you have to play with your grad year.

The 10th grader with the skills, potential and attitude the college recruiter wants will get recruited if they are on a team with some 9th graders

Because the college recruiter is a soccer person, not guidance counselor

Why only play down in soccer?

Just hold your Aug birthday back in school and they'll be aligned and everything works. Why would you want to be s square peg trying to fit in a round hole.

Why do my child a disservice by holding them back in school while kids their age are a year advanced academically and in maturity?
Also, they can only play with their age group or up. So what's gained?
No one can play down

RAE says that being the oldest will give them an academic advantage over all the other students.

Or ore you one of those selective RAE people that only uses it to get what you want?

Wow, to brazenly flaunt ignorance and stupidity with such pride

So, my kid being the oldest in 9th grade learning Economics 1 while kids her age are doing Economics 2/3 in 10th grade is a win for her?

RAE says that oldest is always better. Its science.

You just dont like it when you cant use RAE to get what you want.

If I was a club owner I say sure your August birthday can play down a grade. You just need to hold them back.

Say you've never actually read a study on relative age effect without saying you've never actually read a study on relative age effect.

Dear D Student,
It's called RAE and not AE for a reason.

For your homework, lookup biological age vs calendar age to start.
For extra credit, lookup early maturation and early bloomers.

* not a single RAE study says all older kids have an advantage or gets selected primarily

I would think most studies don't speak in absolutes. Being the oldest in a cohort is a proven advantage. It's not really something to debate.

Regardless, what everyone is talking about here are the pros and cons that apply to a very small number of kids. What those kids decide to do will be up to them and the clubs. I think what most will agree with, is that most clubs won't force kids to play up. If they want to, and it makes sense, etc., then they can. Otherwise, it is up to the parents and the player to decide what they want to do and to weigh the pros and cons (that have been talked about ad nauseum here) and make a decision.

Being oldest is not an automatic proven advantage in soccer or academics.

Many younger players and students outperform older peers.
Stop saying silly stuff to score points

Who said "automatic" you silly goose?

"Being the oldest in a cohort is a proven advantage"

It is not automatic. Sorry for the confusion. It is not a true statement to say that if you're the oldest in a cohort, you will be the smarts, strongest, silliest, in the cohort. But when compared against their peers, the ones that are the smarts, strongest, and silliest usually (not always, its not automatic) tend to be the oldest. There are younger kids in that cohort that will be some of the ones that have all the S's, of course, but the SCieNce shows there is an advantage to being the oldest.

Good finally admitting your nonsense beliefs about rae arent soccer exclusive.

So this means if you're going to play your Aug birthday down a grade because of rae you're also going to hold your kid back in school because of rae.

Problem solved because they're playing on the correct grade in school team thats aligned with their school grade.

To be fair - I just jumped in this convo and it only took me one comment to course-correct. I wasn't the one who first started talking about RAE.

And I agree that is one way to solve the problem. Just hold the Aug. kid back. Might be a hard sell for someone already in HS, but if younger, it makes sense. It won't be for everyone, but it's a viable option.

Admitting you cant parent your kid to success so you gotta mess up their head by having all the kids in their neighborhood their age one grade ahead

Yup. You're right. Parents love messing up their kid's heads.

Right of passage

But some go way above and beyond

Its going to be interesting to see what happens with all the Aug-Dec players that were forced to play up a level/grade in BY. But this fall will be playing "down" on their grade in school team.

I expect them to dominate for 6 months. But after that clubs will get their claws into them forcing players to be the same as everyone else their grade.

My November kid will now be one of the oldest instead of the youngest and I can guarantee he won't be dominating anything

His talents won't magically miraculously change

He will be relatively better than his teammates under SY rather than BY with all else equal.

Older never equates to better in a skill based activity

Older participants, all else equal, are better relative to younger participants in a defined age group where improvements are gained with participants age via an accumulation of experience, physical traits and/or playing ability. Did you expect you son to have more skill switching from BY to SY? Because if you did and are now disappointed that would be on you for the misunderstanding.

This is not what research says. Actual numbers and research are below

https://medium.com/@giacorada/the-fascinating-birth-trend-among-professional-soccer-players-b2a48d015e7d

You just like the graph because it supports your position -- but there are so many holes to the study that even the author acknowledges and some that he doesn't -- like he doesn't discuss/account for how the US had both BY and SY for these players.

I love that graph.

It says August kids have a much better outcome being the oldest rather than the youngest even if a reasonable amount of the period studied was under BY and not all under SY.

I like that graph because it shows that rae doesnt apply in America. The authors option was p2p soccer made players birth month evenly distributed across the year.

If everyone looked at their kids MLS Next team or ECNL team roster right now, none of them would show August birth month as most represented

Go ahead

You do know that soccer is switching from BY to SY, right?