Why you should consider a community college (gasp!)

[Anonymous]

I covered higher education for a daily newspaper for decades. Elite and even average universities consider "intro" courses a cash cow that requires very little effort on their part. Faculty are evaluated for tenure based on publishing and research grants. They have little or no interest in teaching undergraduates.
Community colleges, on the other hand, evaluate faculty solely on the basis of their instructional skills. You would be amazed at the skills and dedication of many faculty and adjuncts teaching at community colleges. Classes are relatively small in comparison to those at four year colleges, where freshman and sophomores are often packed into lecture halls with hundreds of others, taught by adjuncts or graduate students.
No one will care where your child gets his first couple years of college education, only where the diploma comes from. Even that means precious little after the first couple years in the workplace (really!). Lots of sophomores at good schools burn out, leaving openings and scholarships available for transfer students. Having said this, it IS harder for CC college students to stick with the program and succeed in their courses as they aren't living in an atmosphere surrounded by other students. Nevertheless, it's a really good option for many people and is often overlooked by upwardly mobile families.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: I covered higher education for a daily newspaper for decades. Elite and even average universities consider "intro" courses a cash cow that requires very little effort on their part. Faculty are evaluated for tenure based on publishing and research grants. They have little or no interest in teaching undergraduates.
Community colleges, on the other hand, evaluate faculty solely on the basis of their instructional skills. You would be amazed at the skills and dedication of many faculty and adjuncts teaching at community colleges. Classes are relatively small in comparison to those at four year colleges, where freshman and sophomores are often packed into lecture halls with hundreds of others, taught by adjuncts or graduate students.
No one will care where your child gets his first couple years of college education, only where the diploma comes from. Even that means precious little after the first couple years in the workplace (really!). Lots of sophomores at good schools burn out, leaving openings and scholarships available for transfer students. Having said this, it IS harder for CC college students to stick with the program and succeed in their courses as they aren't living in an atmosphere surrounded by other students. Nevertheless, it's a really good option for many people and is often overlooked by upwardly mobile families.

Weird post, OP. No they don't. community colleges hire the cheapest they can find. Adjuncts. Mostly at $1500 a course. Our experience at a community college was abysmal. The teacher was teaching the same course in 3 difference community college locations (same system) and clearly was just phoning it in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Weird post, OP. No they don't. community colleges hire the cheapest they can find. Adjuncts. Mostly at $1500 a course. Our experience at a community college was abysmal. The teacher was teaching the same course in 3 difference community college locations (same system) and clearly was just phoning it in.

a. Everyone's situation is different. Some community colleges are great. Some community college instructors are wonderful. Many of the students are wonderful, determined people. Many alumni of community colleges are wonderful.

And the same is true of the for-profit colleges, like the University of Phoenix. I know someone with a master's from the University of Phoenix. I've never talked to her about the degree, and I don't know what the degree program was like, but the individual with the degree is a wonderful person.

If someone reading this is associated with a good community college, attends such a college, or is an alumni of such a college: Please do not take the following as criticism of you.

b. My impression is that a community college group has hired a social media outreach firm to promote community colleges on message boards.

Certainly, community colleges are great institutions that should be supported, and they provide wonderful opportunities for some.

But, in the real world, at this time, on average, they don't provide the kind of access to opportunity that going to a four-year college provides.

This study shows that only 14 percent of the students who start at a community college end up getting a four-year degree within six years, even though 75 percent want a four-year degree:

https://ccrc.tc.columbia.edu/publications/tracking-transfer-institutional-state-effectiveness.html (Note that about 90 percent of these students came out of public or private nonprofit schools.)

At four-year colleges with open admissions policies, which are coming under fire for not having enough students graduate, 32 percent of the students graduate within four years:

https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=40

So, in other words: students who start at the kinds of four-year schools with no prestige at all are more than twice as likely to get a four-year degree as students who start at two-year colleges.

Only 29 percent of the students who seek a certificate or associate's degree at community colleges get the degrees within three years:

https://postsecondary.gatesfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/A-Primer-on-the-College-Student-Journey.pdf

Seventy percent of "rising juniors" at a four-year college end up with a bachelor's degree, compared with just 45% of juniors who transferred in:

https://www.jkcf.org/research/the-promise-of-the-transfer-pathway-opportunity-and-challenge-for-community-college-students-seeking-the-baccalaureate-degree/

Obviously, a lot of this has to do with many of the students starting at two-year schools having academic and financial problems. But some of the graduation gap may have to do the quality of the classes at the two-year colleges.

Even if everyone at a community college means well: It's going to be hard to offer a tough differential equations class at a community college. Any community college instructor with a heart is going to see how hard the students are working and give them better grades than they would have gotten at UVa or Virginia Tech.

And some of the gap is probably due to the four-year colleges being nasty about financial aid and rejecting perfectly good transfer credits.

That means that, even if a community college does everything it possibly can to offer its students the same level of rigor they'd get at a four-year college, and the students themselves are fine students, the transfer students who enter a four-year college will often go into the four-year college with a community college anvil on their backs.

I think that this is why it's so upsetting for me to see people telling other parents, "Well, your bright, serious kid with a 3.7 unweighted GPA, 1450 on the SATs and run-of-the-mill extracurriculars can just go to community college and then transfer to some place like George Mason. That's better than starting at Podunk 4-Year State College."

If we're talking about a student with a 3.1 GPA and 1100 on the SATs who was not that great about turning in homework: OK, them's the breaks.

But I think it's sad that we're being pushed to think that it's trivial to put the community college anvil on the back of students with 3.7 unweighted GPAs and 1450 on the SATs who happen to be in the financial aid doughnut hole. I think it would be good to create better aid programs for bright students who are in the doughnut hole, to help them start out at four-year colleges and increase the odds they'll end up with degrees.

[Anonymous]

I started at a community college. My fellow students were unmotivated and the professors mostly uninterested, just collecting a paycheck.

[Anonymous]

I began college at a top-tier university, but I was only able to complete three months of my first semester before I had to take medical leave due to a life-threatening illness. I was still undergoing treatment the following school year, so I took classes at a local community college while I was in treatment.

Community college was the best decision I made. I had outstanding professors, learmed how to study, was able to complete all my "basic" courses and pre-requisites, and earned a 4.0. Although I was medically cleared to return to my university after a year, I decided to finish my Associate's degree at the community college before transferring to complete my Bachelor's degree.

I am a huge proponent of students considering community college. It is not right for everyone, but it is right for many.

BTW, I did not have a single professor or instructor who was just "phoning it in."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Weird post, OP. No they don't. community colleges hire the cheapest they can find. Adjuncts. Mostly at $1500 a course. Our experience at a community college was abysmal. The teacher was teaching the same course in 3 difference community college locations (same system) and clearly was just phoning it in.

a. Everyone's situation is different. Some community colleges are great. Some community college instructors are wonderful. Many of the students are wonderful, determined people. Many alumni of community colleges are wonderful.

And the same is true of the for-profit colleges, like the University of Phoenix. I know someone with a master's from the University of Phoenix. I've never talked to her about the degree, and I don't know what the degree program was like, but the individual with the degree is a wonderful person.

If someone reading this is associated with a good community college, attends such a college, or is an alumni of such a college: Please do not take the following as criticism of you.

b. My impression is that a community college group has hired a social media outreach firm to promote community colleges on message boards.

Certainly, community colleges are great institutions that should be supported, and they provide wonderful opportunities for some.

But, in the real world, at this time, on average, they don't provide the kind of access to opportunity that going to a four-year college provides.

This study shows that only 14 percent of the students who start at a community college end up getting a four-year degree within six years, even though 75 percent want a four-year degree:

https://ccrc.tc.columbia.edu/publications/tracking-transfer-institutional-state-effectiveness.html (Note that about 90 percent of these students came out of public or private nonprofit schools.)

At four-year colleges with open admissions policies, which are coming under fire for not having enough students graduate, 32 percent of the students graduate within four years:

https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=40

So, in other words: students who start at the kinds of four-year schools with no prestige at all are more than twice as likely to get a four-year degree as students who start at two-year colleges.

Only 29 percent of the students who seek a certificate or associate's degree at community colleges get the degrees within three years:

https://postsecondary.gatesfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/A-Primer-on-the-College-Student-Journey.pdf

Seventy percent of "rising juniors" at a four-year college end up with a bachelor's degree, compared with just 45% of juniors who transferred in:

https://www.jkcf.org/research/the-promise-of-the-transfer-pathway-opportunity-and-challenge-for-community-college-students-seeking-the-baccalaureate-degree/

Obviously, a lot of this has to do with many of the students starting at two-year schools having academic and financial problems. But some of the graduation gap may have to do the quality of the classes at the two-year colleges.

Even if everyone at a community college means well: It's going to be hard to offer a tough differential equations class at a community college. Any community college instructor with a heart is going to see how hard the students are working and give them better grades than they would have gotten at UVa or Virginia Tech.

And some of the gap is probably due to the four-year colleges being nasty about financial aid and rejecting perfectly good transfer credits.

That means that, even if a community college does everything it possibly can to offer its students the same level of rigor they'd get at a four-year college, and the students themselves are fine students, the transfer students who enter a four-year college will often go into the four-year college with a community college anvil on their backs.

I think that this is why it's so upsetting for me to see people telling other parents, "Well, your bright, serious kid with a 3.7 unweighted GPA, 1450 on the SATs and run-of-the-mill extracurriculars can just go to community college and then transfer to some place like George Mason. That's better than starting at Podunk 4-Year State College."

If we're talking about a student with a 3.1 GPA and 1100 on the SATs who was not that great about turning in homework: OK, them's the breaks.

But I think it's sad that we're being pushed to think that it's trivial to put the community college anvil on the back of students with 3.7 unweighted GPAs and 1450 on the SATs who happen to be in the financial aid doughnut hole. I think it would be good to create better aid programs for bright students who are in the doughnut hole, to help them start out at four-year colleges and increase the odds they'll end up with degrees.

well-balanced response

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I began college at a top-tier university, but I was only able to complete three months of my first semester before I had to take medical leave due to a life-threatening illness. I was still undergoing treatment the following school year, so I took classes at a local community college while I was in treatment.

Community college was the best decision I made. I had outstanding professors, learmed how to study, was able to complete all my "basic" courses and pre-requisites, and earned a 4.0. Although I was medically cleared to return to my university after a year, I decided to finish my Associate's degree at the community college before transferring to complete my Bachelor's degree.

I am a huge proponent of students considering community college. It is not right for everyone, but it is right for many.

BTW, I did not have a single professor or instructor who was just "phoning it in."

I am very glad that you had this experience, but I'm finding it hard to believe that your CC classes were equal to those at a top-tier university. I have taken classes at both. Many of the CC professors are dedicated teachers, but the quality of writing that is expected and the depth of understanding that exams assess is in no way comparable.

[Anonymous]

I had very high sats and ended up at MC for a semester before going to UMD (family reasons) 15 years ago. It was great. I got to take chem and physic and engineering 101 in a class of 30 instead of 500 and learned a ton. Had very engaged professors, ended up tutoring calculus since I had APnin high school etc. it was a good adjustment. I misse dvery little in terms of social life and folded in just fine. I had scholarship money otherwise I could have stayed a year and everything would have transferred. I’m glad I got to miss some crazy big weed out classes at umd.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I began college at a top-tier university, but I was only able to complete three months of my first semester before I had to take medical leave due to a life-threatening illness. I was still undergoing treatment the following school year, so I took classes at a local community college while I was in treatment.

Community college was the best decision I made. I had outstanding professors, learmed how to study, was able to complete all my "basic" courses and pre-requisites, and earned a 4.0. Although I was medically cleared to return to my university after a year, I decided to finish my Associate's degree at the community college before transferring to complete my Bachelor's degree.

I am a huge proponent of students considering community college. It is not right for everyone, but it is right for many.

BTW, I did not have a single professor or instructor who was just "phoning it in."

I am very glad that you had this experience, but I'm finding it hard to believe that your CC classes were equal to those at a top-tier university. I have taken classes at both. Many of the CC professors are dedicated teachers, but the quality of writing that is expected and the depth of understanding that exams assess is in no way comparable.

We are not talking junior and senior level work. But the beginning and into courses. So you are in a much smaller class taught and graded by a prof at cc be a giant lecture in a state school which is mostly taught by tad who go over the problem sets etc. and I don’t think anyone is comparing cc to top 10 schools in the country. It’s just another way to save a little $ and maybe get something else out of the college experience.

[Anonymous]

OP - it's not over looked. A thread about going to Community College is started here on DCUM every week. Are you all getting paid to continually post about this?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I began college at a top-tier university, but I was only able to complete three months of my first semester before I had to take medical leave due to a life-threatening illness. I was still undergoing treatment the following school year, so I took classes at a local community college while I was in treatment.

Community college was the best decision I made. I had outstanding professors, learmed how to study, was able to complete all my "basic" courses and pre-requisites, and earned a 4.0. Although I was medically cleared to return to my university after a year, I decided to finish my Associate's degree at the community college before transferring to complete my Bachelor's degree.

I am a huge proponent of students considering community college. It is not right for everyone, but it is right for many.

BTW, I did not have a single professor or instructor who was just "phoning it in."

PP, did you have any trouble jumping into your new classes at the 4 year university? Did you notice a difference in the exam rigor? I took a CC class recently, and when I compared our syllabus to one at a reputable state university, even though we used the same textbook, the state university class covered more chapters and topics. Also, my classmates at the CC were not expected to buy the textbook and were even discouraged from doing so. The powerpoint slides were considered enough. I bought the textbook, because I prefer in-depth learning.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: I covered higher education for a daily newspaper for decades. Elite and even average universities consider "intro" courses a cash cow that requires very little effort on their part. Faculty are evaluated for tenure based on publishing and research grants. They have little or no interest in teaching undergraduates.
Community colleges, on the other hand, evaluate faculty solely on the basis of their instructional skills. You would be amazed at the skills and dedication of many faculty and adjuncts teaching at community colleges. Classes are relatively small in comparison to those at four year colleges, where freshman and sophomores are often packed into lecture halls with hundreds of others, taught by adjuncts or graduate students.
No one will care where your child gets his first couple years of college education, only where the diploma comes from. Even that means precious little after the first couple years in the workplace (really!). Lots of sophomores at good schools burn out, leaving openings and scholarships available for transfer students. Having said this, it IS harder for CC college students to stick with the program and succeed in their courses as they aren't living in an atmosphere surrounded by other students. Nevertheless, it's a really good option for many people and is often overlooked by upwardly mobile families.

Weird post, OP. No they don't. community colleges hire the cheapest they can find. Adjuncts. Mostly at $1500 a course. Our experience at a community college was abysmal. The teacher was teaching the same course in 3 difference community college locations (same system) and clearly was just phoning it in.

Using adjuncts isn't limited to community colleges. More and more classes at most universities are taught by non-tenure track faculty.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: I covered higher education for a daily newspaper for decades. Elite and even average universities consider "intro" courses a cash cow that requires very little effort on their part. Faculty are evaluated for tenure based on publishing and research grants. They have little or no interest in teaching undergraduates.
Community colleges, on the other hand, evaluate faculty solely on the basis of their instructional skills. You would be amazed at the skills and dedication of many faculty and adjuncts teaching at community colleges. Classes are relatively small in comparison to those at four year colleges, where freshman and sophomores are often packed into lecture halls with hundreds of others, taught by adjuncts or graduate students.
No one will care where your child gets his first couple years of college education, only where the diploma comes from. Even that means precious little after the first couple years in the workplace (really!). Lots of sophomores at good schools burn out, leaving openings and scholarships available for transfer students. Having said this, it IS harder for CC college students to stick with the program and succeed in their courses as they aren't living in an atmosphere surrounded by other students. Nevertheless, it's a really good option for many people and is often overlooked by upwardly mobile families.

Weird post, OP. No they don't. community colleges hire the cheapest they can find. Adjuncts. Mostly at $1500 a course. Our experience at a community college was abysmal. The teacher was teaching the same course in 3 difference community college locations (same system) and clearly was just phoning it in.

Using adjuncts isn't limited to community colleges. More and more classes at most universities are taught by non-tenure track faculty.

This. A friend from grad school was an adjunct for 10 years before going to work for a textbook company.

[Anonymous]

Could be but 4 year universities have had more time to build a seasoned faculty and an expectation of tenure. Community colleges, however, have strict budgets and a particular demand of classes for which they must find teachers. They usually hire adjuncts quick and fast.

[Anonymous]

The best and most highly qualified professors want the four-year institution where they have or can obtain tenure. They don't want to sit around a 2 year school. Yes, a community college can pick up some great teachers who happen to work in the neighboring community and enjoy it for the adjunct's stipend but those individuals are becoming fewer and farther in between. Most can't afford to teach for fun at a community college anymore.