Forum Index
»
Political Discussion
Israel thrown under the bus?
![[Post New]](/jforum/templates/default/images/icon_minipost_new.gif){kind=icon}
Anonymous
Quote from Pres. Obama's address to the UN today.
Is he really proposing a return to the pre-1967 war borders? and to make Gaza and the West Bank contiguous will bifurcate Israeli territory, no? |
Anonymous
|
He is not announcing anything new. As you certainly know, the 6 day war got:
Sinai West Bank Gaza Golan Heights West Jerusalem Sinai was already returned to Egypt. West Bank and Gaza are destined to become Palestinian, we don't know what will be done with Golan Heights and Jerusalem but those are not going to go back to pre-war status. There will also need to be negotiation about Israeli settlements in West Bank, because they chop up the territory. When he uses the word "contiguous" it is about not leaving West Bank fragmented due to the settlements. The solution will, as it always has been, a negotiation that will trade some settled land contiguous with Israel for outlying settlements which can't survive any peace agreement. |
Anonymous
| I second what 18:26 says. Basically if you look how the West Bank is structured now, it looks like a piece of Alpine Lace swiss cheese. That is, the areas the Palestinians have authority over are all the little holes surrounded by the areas controlled by the Israeli settlements and military. Palestinians are cut off from one another by military checkpoints. If the Palestinian territory were contiguous, people could go from home to work to school and to the hospital without having to wait for hours to be allowed to pass by the Israeli military. |
Anonymous
|
And don't worry, OP, I don't think Obama is going to be able to do a thing to change the status quo in the conflict right now.
Personally I think that's tragic -- for the Palestinians in the short run and the Israelis in the long run -- but since there are so many people out there who have decided Obama is some kind of crazed dictatorial Marxist out to destroy everything America stands for, I would like to reassure them that they really don't have to get hysterical about his intentions regarding Israel. I don't think he has very radical intentions and even if he did, ain't nothin' gonna happen. We're going to be stuck with this growing quagmire for some time to come. |
Anonymous
|
So 11:46, you read contiguous to mean that the West Bank won't be splintered, nor Gaza - not that the West Bank and Gaza will be connected? I am familiar with the high level map, not the low level details.
So long as the Palestinians are represented by two groups that don't talk to each other - Hamas and the PA - there is no real negotiation. Whatever the PA agrees to is meaningless unless Hamas goes along. |
Anonymous
| I'm 18:26, but no one has ever proposed a plan to connect Gaza and West Bank. It can't be done without cutting Jerusalem in half somewhere at or south of Jerusalem. |
Anonymous
| 11:46 again -- Yes, 13:47, even if Obama wanted to connect Gaza and the West Bank (which he doesn't), he would not be able to do it. There is no political will in the United States to make that happen. |
Anonymous
And that is a tragedy. The Palestinian people are subjected to an Apartheid existence. |
Anonymous
True. The settlements have now, what, 3 times the population they did at the time of the Oslo Accords? Israel will never freeze the settlements and no way does Obama have the spine to make them do it. The last US president who really held Israel accountable was George H.W. Bush. The Democrats have generally been in the tank for Israel (regardless of Jimmy Carter). The Republicans were actually comparatively tougher until they got hijacked by the evangelicals who support Israel because they think Irael's existence is a sign of the Second Coming. That's why George W. was so pro-Israel even though his dad was tougher. |
Anonymous
i do not understand. What bible are the evangelicals reading? The evangelicals that I know do not think that at all Sounds like an urban legend |
Anonymous
Check out this article on Hagee and "Christians United for Israel"-- http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0508/10375.html |
Anonymous
No, there is a lot of political support within the evangelical movement for Israel. Many of them believe that the Jews have to take back the Holy Land before the second coming can occur. Google "Evangelicals Israel" to your heart's content. You will see everything, including actual lobbying. And check the polls that compare support for Israel to religion. |
Anonymous
|
Including actual lobbying. Well, lobyists are lobyists. That is still not enough for me.
I still disagree. With the stuff going on in Israel, they need less religion, not more. Far too much clowning around with religion. Their choice, so they will not have peace. They must take responsibility for the situation themselves, not do what they like and then come cry to America. Besides, Israel is very diverse, and with the expected population growth of minorities, it will probably cease to be as religious as it is now in a few decades. |
Anonymous
Most Jews in Israel are not religiously observant today. However, Judaism is not just a religion but a cultural and now political identity. Your point is right that the demographics will change and that is going to have a profound effect on the country. But secular Jews have remained Jewish and will likely continue to be Jewish because the world will always identify them as Jewish. Otherwise they would have assimilated away in their home countries and would not have been persecuted in so many places around the world. It is interesting that Jews lived in North Africa among Muslims for many years. The religions are no less compatible than Judaism and Christianity. We like to think about Israel as being a problem of Muslim and Jew. But really, it's Arab and Jew or even more closely Palestinian and Jew. Those cultural (and political) identities will not go away because fewer people go to temple or mosque. |
Anonymous
|
Sorry for a dumb question.
But religion does not teach 'make your neighbour homeless', 'hate the man who believes differently' Just carry on fighting until only 1 man is left standing. Learn the hard way if you have to. |