Quick legal question-Leaving with the kids overnight

[Anonymous]

I will be talking to my therapist and finding a lawyer shortly, but meanwhile:
Husband gets angry during arguments and has sometimes used physical force in the past. He refuses to leave the house during such episodes and downplays them.

In the latest one, I got frustrated (no physical violence, but he was heavily deflecting blame over some stupid things) and left overnight to stay in hotel with kids. I texted we are in hotel but did not provide location, and asked him to leave. We came back following afternoon. He says he will talk to lawyer and get restraining order since I took kids away from him. He is at home.

Now I know I cant leave house alone since that would be abandonment of kids, and he refuses to leave, so only option is for me to leave with kids, and is that illegal? Or can I only leave with kids when there is actual physical violence? I am worried he is going to use this as leverage against me legally.

[Anonymous]

You can call the police when there are threats. They may tell him to go to a hotel for the night. My neighbors were in this situation. We called the police because of the yelling, but couldn't make out his actual words. After he left for the hotel, DH drive her to the courthouse to get a restraining order.

[Anonymous]

Not a lawyer
Unless and until there is a custody order in place you each have the same right to your kids at all times. You may take them where you please, generally.

[Anonymous]

I would call one of the domestic violence hotlines. Don't let him scare you from taking your kids. You did the right thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Not a lawyer
Unless and until there is a custody order in place you each have the same right to your kids at all times. You may take them where you please, generally.

This. Of course, the same is true of him--he has the right to take the kids where he wants. So tread carefully.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Not a lawyer
Unless and until there is a custody order in place you each have the same right to your kids at all times. You may take them where you please, generally.

This is true in a very general sense, but it's viewed differently when it becomes about taking the kids away from the other parent and not just taking them to the park or to visit grandma without the other parent.

OP, you really need to discuss with a lawyer how to handle this properly. It would be one thing if there was a threat of physical violence that caused you to leave with the kids, but if you took them away from him just because you didn't like what he was saying, that can be used against you later in custody proceedings. Especially because you refused to tell him the location of his children, that plays really badly. It will be put together into a picture of you having a pattern, even pre-divorce, of withholding the children from him and refusing to let him have access to them. If a judge becomes concerned that it will continue/get worse after the divorce, you might end up with an unfavorable custody determination in order to preserve his access to the children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not a lawyer
Unless and until there is a custody order in place you each have the same right to your kids at all times. You may take them where you please, generally.

This is true in a very general sense, but it's viewed differently when it becomes about taking the kids away from the other parent and not just taking them to the park or to visit grandma without the other parent.

OP, you really need to discuss with a lawyer how to handle this properly. It would be one thing if there was a threat of physical violence that caused you to leave with the kids, but if you took them away from him just because you didn't like what he was saying, that can be used against you later in custody proceedings. Especially because you refused to tell him the location of his children, that plays really badly. It will be put together into a picture of you having a pattern, even pre-divorce, of withholding the children from him and refusing to let him have access to them. If a judge becomes concerned that it will continue/get worse after the divorce, you might end up with an unfavorable custody determination in order to preserve his access to the children.

Disagree. He's used physical force in the past, and she needs to protect her kids. I don't think any court would punish her for this - my ex did the same, and he got trounced for it in court. (This was just one of many things he did.) You fled the house for one night - you are not denying him access.

But OP, you do need to talk to an attorney asap - but for free, you can call and domestic violence hotline this very minute. They will help you think this through.

And next time, you'll need to call the Police. I was so ashamed, but I remember my therapist saying, "If he hits you again, and you call the police, this will all be over soon." I didn't end up needed to call the police again because I asked him to leave the house permanently, but I'll never forget my therapist's words.

OP, don't let anyone scare you. If you think he's getting violent, GET OUT OF HIS WAY, call the police, and call an attorney. ((HUGS))

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not a lawyer
Unless and until there is a custody order in place you each have the same right to your kids at all times. You may take them where you please, generally.

This is true in a very general sense, but it's viewed differently when it becomes about taking the kids away from the other parent and not just taking them to the park or to visit grandma without the other parent.

OP, you really need to discuss with a lawyer how to handle this properly. It would be one thing if there was a threat of physical violence that caused you to leave with the kids, but if you took them away from him just because you didn't like what he was saying, that can be used against you later in custody proceedings. Especially because you refused to tell him the location of his children, that plays really badly. It will be put together into a picture of you having a pattern, even pre-divorce, of withholding the children from him and refusing to let him have access to them. If a judge becomes concerned that it will continue/get worse after the divorce, you might end up with an unfavorable custody determination in order to preserve his access to the children.

Disagree. He's used physical force in the past, and she needs to protect her kids. I don't think any court would punish her for this - my ex did the same, and he got trounced for it in court. (This was just one of many things he did.) You fled the house for one night - you are not denying him access.

But OP, you do need to talk to an attorney asap - but for free, you can call and domestic violence hotline this very minute. They will help you think this through.

And next time, you'll need to call the Police. I was so ashamed, but I remember my therapist saying, "If he hits you again, and you call the police, this will all be over soon." I didn't end up needed to call the police again because I asked him to leave the house permanently, but I'll never forget my therapist's words.

OP, don't let anyone scare you. If you think he's getting violent, GET OUT OF HIS WAY, call the police, and call an attorney. ((HUGS))

"Used physical force" is a pretty vague and often intentionally used for dramatic effect. Playing the violent card in absence of violence is a hige mistake. It is nkt uncommon for physical force to actually be loud and pissed off combined with physical aggitation. That is not force nor is it violence. I have found without example or incidents it a bit of drama.

[Anonymous]

You can leave with the kids overnight. He's abusing you by making these claims. Call a hotline or get a lawyer. Don't listen to him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not a lawyer
Unless and until there is a custody order in place you each have the same right to your kids at all times. You may take them where you please, generally.

This is true in a very general sense, but it's viewed differently when it becomes about taking the kids away from the other parent and not just taking them to the park or to visit grandma without the other parent.

OP, you really need to discuss with a lawyer how to handle this properly. It would be one thing if there was a threat of physical violence that caused you to leave with the kids, but if you took them away from him just because you didn't like what he was saying, that can be used against you later in custody proceedings. Especially because you refused to tell him the location of his children, that plays really badly. It will be put together into a picture of you having a pattern, even pre-divorce, of withholding the children from him and refusing to let him have access to them. If a judge becomes concerned that it will continue/get worse after the divorce, you might end up with an unfavorable custody determination in order to preserve his access to the children.

Disagree. He's used physical force in the past, and she needs to protect her kids. I don't think any court would punish her for this - my ex did the same, and he got trounced for it in court. (This was just one of many things he did.) You fled the house for one night - you are not denying him access.

But OP, you do need to talk to an attorney asap - but for free, you can call and domestic violence hotline this very minute. They will help you think this through.

And next time, you'll need to call the Police. I was so ashamed, but I remember my therapist saying, "If he hits you again, and you call the police, this will all be over soon." I didn't end up needed to call the police again because I asked him to leave the house permanently, but I'll never forget my therapist's words.

OP, don't let anyone scare you. If you think he's getting violent, GET OUT OF HIS WAY, call the police, and call an attorney. ((HUGS))

Unless OP has contemporaneous evidence of prior violence (e.g., police report, text/email to a friend about him hitting her, eye witness account), she's going to face an uphill battle on this. That's why she needs to talk to a lawyer before she takes the kids again.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not a lawyer
Unless and until there is a custody order in place you each have the same right to your kids at all times. You may take them where you please, generally.

This is true in a very general sense, but it's viewed differently when it becomes about taking the kids away from the other parent and not just taking them to the park or to visit grandma without the other parent.

OP, you really need to discuss with a lawyer how to handle this properly. It would be one thing if there was a threat of physical violence that caused you to leave with the kids, but if you took them away from him just because you didn't like what he was saying, that can be used against you later in custody proceedings. Especially because you refused to tell him the location of his children, that plays really badly. It will be put together into a picture of you having a pattern, even pre-divorce, of withholding the children from him and refusing to let him have access to them. If a judge becomes concerned that it will continue/get worse after the divorce, you might end up with an unfavorable custody determination in order to preserve his access to the children.

Disagree. He's used physical force in the past, and she needs to protect her kids. I don't think any court would punish her for this - my ex did the same, and he got trounced for it in court. (This was just one of many things he did.) You fled the house for one night - you are not denying him access.

But OP, you do need to talk to an attorney asap - but for free, you can call and domestic violence hotline this very minute. They will help you think this through.

And next time, you'll need to call the Police. I was so ashamed, but I remember my therapist saying, "If he hits you again, and you call the police, this will all be over soon." I didn't end up needed to call the police again because I asked him to leave the house permanently, but I'll never forget my therapist's words.

OP, don't let anyone scare you. If you think he's getting violent, GET OUT OF HIS WAY, call the police, and call an attorney. ((HUGS))

Unless OP has contemporaneous evidence of prior violence (e.g., police report, text/email to a friend about him hitting her, eye witness account), she's going to face an uphill battle on this. That's why she needs to talk to a lawyer before she takes the kids again.

What PP said.

[Anonymous]

OP here, thanks for all replies.

To clarify in the past it has not just been force, but actual physical violence - slapping, throw beverage, throw toy... both against me and kid. It has been sporadic, but multiple times over the years, I dont have evidence, but I dont see how this can be denied.

I do understand that a pattern of taking kids away could be detrimental for future custody, and I dont see the need to do it. I guess the best recourse is to call 911 when this happens again. We are immigrants and in my parents generation there was no legal protection, so women had to take kids and leave, that was the best thing you could do.

Apparently DH saw a lawyer about my taking kids away to overnight and not telling him the hotel name, I am not sure what they told him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here, thanks for all replies.

To clarify in the past it has not just been force, but actual physical violence - slapping, throw beverage, throw toy... both against me and kid. It has been sporadic, but multiple times over the years, I dont have evidence, but I dont see how this can be denied.

I do understand that a pattern of taking kids away could be detrimental for future custody, and I dont see the need to do it. I guess the best recourse is to call 911 when this happens again. We are immigrants and in my parents generation there was no legal protection, so women had to take kids and leave, that was the best thing you could do.

Apparently DH saw a lawyer about my taking kids away to overnight and not telling him the hotel name, I am not sure what they told him.

The attorney's advice likely included calling the police if you leave with the kids again and refuse to tell him where they are, and to keep his own behavior completely aboveboard (e.g., no threats of violence during an argument). The police won't necessarily do anything to you in response to the call, but there will be record of a report which he can use against you later. One of the factors in determining child custody and visitation in Virginia is "[t]he propensity of each parent to actively support the child's contact and relationship with the other parent, including whether a parent has unreasonably denied the other parent access to or visitation with the child[.]" (Va. Code s. 20-124.3). He's going to try to set you up under this provision and this will provide the contemporaneous evidence he needs. Call an attorney and tread carefully, OP. He's not messing around.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here, thanks for all replies.

To clarify in the past it has not just been force, but actual physical violence - slapping, throw beverage, throw toy... both against me and kid. It has been sporadic, but multiple times over the years, I dont have evidence, but I dont see how this can be denied.

I do understand that a pattern of taking kids away could be detrimental for future custody, and I dont see the need to do it. I guess the best recourse is to call 911 when this happens again. We are immigrants and in my parents generation there was no legal protection, so women had to take kids and leave, that was the best thing you could do.

Apparently DH saw a lawyer about my taking kids away to overnight and not telling him the hotel name, I am not sure what they told him.

He didn't talk to a lawyer, he's lying to you. Don't take your children over state lines (easy to do around here depending on where you are). And definitely call the police next time. Stop trying to handle this yourself. Get a lawyer ASAP before this gets worse. And take pictures (of bruises, broken toys, beverages on the ground - whatever you can). Text your friends what happens and when. The important part is that your documentation is contemporaneous, so time stamps on texts or pictures are helpful (an iPhone will time stamp a picture if you take it).

[Anonymous]

OP here he did see a lawyer, I saw the CC charge. And he has texts from him to me for the night I was away. He was collecting evidence apparently, and I have none. He can deny abusing me, but I don't see how he can deny slapping the kid. Kids remembers each incident clearly.

I can't believe I have put up with all the physical abuse and he is the one taking legal action because I got my wits together to step out for a night.

Next time I am calling 911. And I will see a lawyer now.