Health Care Debate - who gets hurt? helped?

[Anonymous]

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0809/26262.html Summary of a PEW Research Poll

Only 49 percent of Americans now hold a favorable view of the Democratic Party, down from 62 percent in the same poll shortly after Obama assumed office.

But even more (29 percent) held GOP leaders responsible for not working together, up from 26 percent in February.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0809/26262.html#ixzz0OjQMjvNz

In a closely divided electorate, Seniors account for 13% of Democrat voters. What happens if a quarter of these voters either sit out the next cycle or switch to vote GOP over fear of less access to Medicare benefits?

September should be an interesting month.

[Anonymous]

People relying on Medicare that are protesting vehemently the expansion of health care to others are the biggest hypocrites out there. Medicare is also bankrupting the government and that's a fact because paying for unlimited amounts of health care for old people indefinitely is not sustainable.

[Anonymous]

Is Medicare unlimited? Does the doctor/patient not have to get pre-approval for certain procedures and treatments from the govt. the way we do from the insurance company?

Hypocrites or not though, they are a big part of the Democrat voting block - will they bolt?

[Anonymous]

Seniors are usually not part of the Democrat voting block. They are more crucial to the Republicans. Their numbers are smaller but the ones concentrated in communities and nursing homes with religious connections yield bigger turnouts. You see church groups driving buses of supporters out to the polls. Voting is an activity in these communities and yields a much bigger proportional turnout for non national elections.

The Republican party has a bigger problem with pipeline voters already overwhelmingly identifying themselves as democrats. They may not come out to the polls in the same number but its harder to "switch" someone. The republicans also have a big problem with the changing demographics. The recent jolt toward vocal, social conservatives with racist undertones has killed them with hispanic voters who are becoming a larger block.

The seniors can make a difference in local elections but less unless its very close in a national election.

On healthcare, anything on healthcare is going to hurt the democrats in the short term and will either be equal or a local positive for Republicans. Part of this is because, Republicans have gone about low as they can and still claim party existence and the Dems have been riding unusually high. It is more dangerous for dems to walk away from healthcare which I don't think they will do.

On who actually gets hurt if the Republicans kill health reform which seems to be their main plan as they have offered no other solutions, are many people. Small business can not absorb the continued rise in healthcare premiums which menas fewer employers or no healthcare plans or very reduced healthcare plans. The happily, blind millions paying into their company negotiated plans will start getting more and more shocked as they encounter more non-covered conditions and procedures as their companies negotiate down coverage to control costs. Anyone who is unemployed for more than 90 days is out of luck and one accident or medical issue away from bankruptcy. Families dependent on state plans that are being slashed will start losing coverage for children (anyone listen to the NPR segment on CA where they suspended the children's healthcare program and the mother can't afford the school vaccination?).

Who benefits if healthcare reform gets killed? In the short term a few Republicans get bragging rights that they took down Obama and the tactic that you can win by lyingg directly to the faces of the American public continues. Yep, that is something to believe in.

[Anonymous]

The very fact that people are discussing giving medical procedures to seniors costs too much money should scare everyone and should give pause to when the Democratic politicians say (and lie) that there will not be rationing. We should never treat our seniors like they have overstayed their welcome on earth. That is awful. It is so easy to say that they get too much healtcare when we are young. I imagine that when I am old and have paid a lifetime worth of taxes that I will want to extend my stay on earth.

[Anonymous]

"The very fact that people are discussing giving medical procedures to seniors costs too much money should scare everyone and should give pause to when the Democratic politicians say (and lie) that there will not be rationing. We should never treat our seniors like they have overstayed their welcome on earth. That is awful. It is so easy to say that they get too much healtcare when we are young. I imagine that when I am old and have paid a lifetime worth of taxes that I will want to extend my stay on earth. "

I have not heard one Democrat discussing withholding medical procedures to seniors. There was an interview on NPR with the Ministry of Health from England who was outraged and very shocked at what he characterized as blatant lies from a few Republican senators that the British healthcare system denies procedures to seniors. There have been multiple interviews where Republicans have been put on the spot to show where in the healthcare bill it even remotely refers to communal standards or anything that would remotely deny coverage to a senior. The answer is "the bill is 1,000 pages long" . Really, too long for you to read so I will just lie and make things up. Gee worked for weapons of mass destruction. Republicans are trying to scare seniors and its just disgusting.

Debate how sustainable the costs will be, debate sections of the bill but stop making things out of either ignorance or malicious intent tohurt the public while benefitting your own party.

[Anonymous]

Actually President Obama questioned whether his grandmother should have gotten some of the procedures she did. Of course he conveniently voiced this after she was dead. He also openly discussed whether sometimes medicine is a better option than surgery for some people--if you are suffering from something like cancer and you hear that you shouldn't get surgery-you will hasten the end of your life. As usual the media didn't push more on what he meant--they knew it would be unpopular. Also the plans currently being discussed have major cuts to medicare so if will affect seniors. Democrats by and large are more into the whole Euthanasia thing.

[Anonymous]

I pay a lot of money for my healthcare. Money that I could put other places but I value healthcare more than I value cars and other sorts of things. I don't want to be put in the same pile as people who don't value it the same because my care will be compromised for a small group of people who tend to suck the whole system including not paying fed income taxes. This doesn't mean I don't want access for legal Americans--I think we can have more competition by allowing people to deduct healthcare on their taxes and opening up buying insurance state to state. But my paying for other people..nahhh that is not what I envision for this country. Too many people want something for free and generally nothing is free and what is perceived as free will be subpar.

[Anonymous]

I personally think the liberals are sending the democrats on a death march. The polls are starting to say the same thing. I listen to CSPAN open phones just about every day and the tone has dramatically changed, even among democrats and definitly among moderates. The far left is just about as spitting mad at the far right, they now seem to have a common enemy.

Obama would have had better success if he had not supported and touted credit for the stimulus package working...just to see the next day economic news take a plunge. If he wants to take credit, then he should be prepared to take the fall. No one is beliving the economy has turned around.

Has it ever dawned on supportes of a gov option that sensible people see that cash for clunkers has turned into a disaster, stimulus has turned into a disaster, and the auto bailout was a waste? WHY would anyone want a gov option? Look, I think in theory that a gov option is a great and humane approach, however I have NO FAITH WHATSOEVER,at all, none, nill, zilch that the government is capable of administering healthcare. Everything they touch becomes a debacle. I do not believe that a crap option is better than no option. I do believe that baby steps should be taken in the form of tax credits for ALL healthcare related expenses and more federal regulation of existing insurance companies. Maybe if the gov can successfully pull off some small steps, then people might have a little faith.

I can't help, but think to the story of Icarus when I think of Obama.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I personally think the liberals are sending the democrats on a death march. The polls are starting to say the same thing. I listen to CSPAN open phones just about every day and the tone has dramatically changed, even among democrats and definitly among moderates. The far left is just about as spitting mad at the far right, they now seem to have a common enemy.

Obama would have had better success if he had not supported and touted credit for the stimulus package working...just to see the next day economic news take a plunge. If he wants to take credit, then he should be prepared to take the fall. No one is beliving the economy has turned around.

Has it ever dawned on supportes of a gov option that sensible people see that cash for clunkers has turned into a disaster, stimulus has turned into a disaster, and the auto bailout was a waste? WHY would anyone want a gov option? Look, I think in theory that a gov option is a great and humane approach, however I have NO FAITH WHATSOEVER,at all, none, nill, zilch that the government is capable of administering healthcare. Everything they touch becomes a debacle. I do not believe that a crap option is better than no option. I do believe that baby steps should be taken in the form of tax credits for ALL healthcare related expenses and more federal regulation of existing insurance companies. Maybe if the gov can successfully pull off some small steps, then people might have a little faith.

I can't help, but think to the story of Icarus when I think of Obama.

I agree. I am not a fan of the single payer option because I have zero faith that the government can administer a quality, efficient and fiscally responsible program. Medicare is a disaster with fraud estimates as high as 20%. Why not see what they can do to shore up medicare first? If the government can be effective, show us! And why the hell is tort reform not part of health care reform?

[Anonymous]

"Has it ever dawned on supportes of a gov option that sensible people see that cash for clunkers has turned into a disaster, stimulus has turned into a disaster, and the auto bailout was a waste?"

Wow, you certainly are not an economist. The economic interventions were about warding off falling off a cliff which it has done. As much as I dislike Bush I have to give him credit for using TARP funds to keep the auto industry from dumping in December. The auto bailout wsa not about saving the auto industry longterm but not putting a death nail in the economy at a critical point. I have to give Obama credit for getting through a stimulus that kept us out of depression and shortens the recession. If anyone believes that any one action or even combination is actions will take us back to the prosperity of the gasp Clinton years you are just crazy. The deeper the spiral down the longer it takes to dig out. This is a simple concept. The stimulus will not end the recession it is not big enough. It did however bring more confidence to stabilze the downward spiral. It also had a less publicized affect on keeping some of the starving states alive a little longer.

The democrats being for euthanasia is just a stupid comment. Its embarrassing that the Republicans can't do better than smear tactics.

[Anonymous]

"I agree. I am not a fan of the single payer option because I have zero faith that the government can administer a quality, efficient and fiscally responsible program. Medicare is a disaster with fraud estimates as high as 20%. Why not see what they can do to shore up medicare first? If the government can be effective, show us! "

..but then you cry any changes to Medicare include killing granny and the evil democrat death panels. I have not seen one Republican plan to reduce medicare costs nor I have seen one indication of killing granny from the democrats. The republicans are out there scarying seniors that the dems will change medicare yet here you are attacking it??

And why the hell is tort reform not part of health care reform? "

Estimates are that tort reform would account for no more than 1% at best. This is a total red herring.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"I agree. I am not a fan of the single payer option because I have zero faith that the government can administer a quality, efficient and fiscally responsible program. Medicare is a disaster with fraud estimates as high as 20%. Why not see what they can do to shore up medicare first? If the government can be effective, show us! "

..but then you cry any changes to Medicare include killing granny and the evil democrat death panels. I have not seen one Republican plan to reduce medicare costs nor I have seen one indication of killing granny from the democrats. The republicans are out there scarying seniors that the dems will change medicare yet here you are attacking it??

And why the hell is tort reform not part of health care reform? "

Estimates are that tort reform would account for no more than 1% at best. This is a total red herring.

And what is the democrats plan to reduce medicare waste and fraud?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I personally think the liberals are sending the democrats on a death march. The polls are starting to say the same thing. I listen to CSPAN open phones just about every day and the tone has dramatically changed, even among democrats and definitly among moderates. The far left is just about as spitting mad at the far right, they now seem to have a common enemy.

Obama would have had better success if he had not supported and touted credit for the stimulus package working...just to see the next day economic news take a plunge. If he wants to take credit, then he should be prepared to take the fall. No one is beliving the economy has turned around.

Has it ever dawned on supportes of a gov option that sensible people see that cash for clunkers has turned into a disaster, stimulus has turned into a disaster, and the auto bailout was a waste? WHY would anyone want a gov option? Look, I think in theory that a gov option is a great and humane approach, however I have NO FAITH WHATSOEVER,at all, none, nill, zilch that the government is capable of administering healthcare. Everything they touch becomes a debacle. I do not believe that a crap option is better than no option. I do believe that baby steps should be taken in the form of tax credits for ALL healthcare related expenses and more federal regulation of existing insurance companies. Maybe if the gov can successfully pull off some small steps, then people might have a little faith.

I can't help, but think to the story of Icarus when I think of Obama.

Let's have some perspective here. First, no one has been able to rein in health care. We have a problem in this country with health care, and the numbers do not lie. Whatever he does or doesn't accomplish, it will be more than all postwar presidents in this area. The worst is that this all comes to nothing, like Hillarycare, and then he goes on to the next thing.

The economy is turning around. When Bush was President, his own people were running around like chickens with their heads cut off saying the sky was falling. Why? Because the sky was actually falling. So quibbling about the details of bailout x or stimulus y seems like nitpicking the details. Our banking system did not collapse, nor did our economy. Good enough for me. They can clean up the mistakes they made going forward, but both administrations did a pretty good job not cratering this one. I expected them to screw some things up moving as fast as they did, but had they moved slow we would have been screwed.

We are on our way to getting out of Iraq, that albatross around our neck.

This president is hardly Icarus. He's handling several things at the same time, and doing it well. Two months ago people were whining about something else. Six months later we will move on to the next set of gripes. But 8 years from now, this presidency is going to look about as good as it gets.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I pay a lot of money for my healthcare. Money that I could put other places but I value healthcare more than I value cars and other sorts of things. I don't want to be put in the same pile as people who don't value it the same because my care will be compromised for a small group of people who tend to suck the whole system including not paying fed income taxes. This doesn't mean I don't want access for legal Americans--I think we can have more competition by allowing people to deduct healthcare on their taxes and opening up buying insurance state to state. But my paying for other people..nahhh that is not what I envision for this country. Too many people want something for free and generally nothing is free and what is perceived as free will be subpar.

First, you don't pay for healthcare, you pay for insurance. You can keep your insurance and not "be put in the same pile as people....". Nowhere it says that everyone will have to have the same insurance, it is those who don't have it or aren't happy with what they have will have an OPTION. Isn't having options basis of free market?

You're tied to insurance your employer provides. If you get sick you're going to hurt their bottom line, so your risk of loosing your precious insurance will increase proportionally to how sick you are. While you're healthy, like majority of people, you're profitable, yet still they ration which procedures you can have, which drs you can see and how often. Where do you think your premiums you pay go to? They PAY FOR OTHER SICK PEOPLE (horror!) and most importantly big chunk of it goes to insurance company itself with ceos making millions and, these days, lobby is getting over a million a day to fight the health insurance reform, get this: they use your money to keep your money. People's health and life depend on decisions of bureaucrats who are motivated by greed, you may like it, but I don't!