"Opening up" means risking your life

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When did "flatten the curve " turn into "stay inside until we have a vaccine/stick a swab up 330 million noses in a week"?

Great question.

It hasn't.

Governors are just waiting for the peak, so our health care system doesn't collapse like it did to the folks in Italy. Then they will slowly open things up. It can't be exactly timed, but it won't be infinite.

We just have too many dummies who haven't learned:
(1) the president is a liar and only cares about himself
And (2) opening too early is how you get "death panels." If you don't have enough resources, someone has to go without.

I remember back six+ years ago when FOX news was threatening "death panels" on a daily basis to scare the crap out of their old audience. Now their audience welcomes.the chance to be chosen to die, the big dummies.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Imagine sitting at home, doing little, while knowing that everything you worked for is going down the tubes. Imagine wondering how you are going to feed your family. Now imagine it's because a bunch of elites decided that you were expendable so they could eat cake.

That's why there are protests.

Imagine your boss calling and saying that you have to return to work or get fired. Imagine that your health insurance depends on your job. Imagine catching COVID-19 and suffering permanent heart, lung, or kidney damage, or even dying. Imagine how much better off you would have been if there were fewer people like you willing to put their own finances ahead of other's health.

My brother in law in Georgia is dealing with this very question right now. Should he risk death to keep job, and therefore his health insurance? Or should he quit his job, knowing that someone in their early 60s who has several years to go before social security may not get hired easily?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Imagine sitting at home, doing little, while knowing that everything you worked for is going down the tubes. Imagine wondering how you are going to feed your family. Now imagine it's because a bunch of elites decided that you were expendable so they could eat cake.

That's why there are protests.

Well, in Canada they have health care AND unemployed people are getting 2000 a month to live.

If you are watching everything you've ever built in your life going down the tubes because of a two month stay at home order, you don't have enough money to afford to vote republican.

It doesn't have to be this way, but the "we must open and sacrifice ourselves to the god of money" protestors don't seem to care.

Wow!! Open the mint!

The great thing about capitalism is you control your own destiny. Sitting around depending on handouts only works as long as there are handouts to give. How long can the Canadians keep giving out free money? Where will they get the tax revenue to pay for it if no one is working?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When did "flatten the curve " turn into "stay inside until we have a vaccine/stick a swab up 330 million noses in a week"?

Great question.

It hasn't.

Governors are just waiting for the peak, so our health care system doesn't collapse like it did to the folks in Italy. Then they will slowly open things up. It can't be exactly timed, but it won't be infinite.

We just have too many dummies who haven't learned:
(1) the president is a liar and only cares about himself
And (2) opening too early is how you get "death panels." If you don't have enough resources, someone has to go without.

I remember back six+ years ago when FOX news was threatening "death panels" on a daily basis to scare the crap out of their old audience. Now their audience welcomes.the chance to be chosen to die, the big dummies.

The federal government has to either help or get out of the way with regard to the testing supply chain so states can actually perform the tests needed to do contact tracing so we can open up again. Without that, either (a) all hell will break loose and we’ll have a surge of outbreaks and overwhelm the system or (b) consumers won’t trust that things are really safe and businesses will still suffer.

Just saying “open sesame!” doesn’t magically bring back consumer confidence and spending. Consumers have to feel safe to use services; 60% of Americans are worried about opening up too soon.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I tend to think that some actual members of the working class might reasonably want reopenings for reasons that have little or nothing to do with GOP CEOs’ stock holdings.

You should find an actual member of the working class and ask them. I guarantee that you are not one.

I guarantee that these decisions should not be made based on upper middle class perspectives from those who telework in comfort.

You have things backwards. Those that can telework won't be endangered by re-opening the economy. It is the working class -- those that have to fill factory floors, take mass transportation to work, or interact with hundreds of customers per day that will get infected. They will be assuming the risk of illness to protect Trump's political fortunes and your wallet. While they are risking their health, you will be safely protected.

My protection remains to be seen.

I assume that if governors in blue states deem it reasonably appropriate — following actual scientific guidelines — to ease off on the stay home orders, that they will be doing so for reasons other than to preserve Donald Trump’s political fortunes and a wallet (certainly not the meager contents of my wallet). The advice here about shut downs bothers me a little because I think it too often seems to reflect an incomplete perspective. I do not necessarily see this as a red/blue divide, even though there is obviously great merit in the argument that some red state governors have acted like reckless fools, and that Trump has too. He will surely be defeated because voters are sick of looking at him.

At some point, offices have to open. Where I happen to have little faith in employers is in what they will do when employees return. My personal hope is that more employees recognize that they have tremendous potential power to band together and act collectively. If part of that means striking to avoid going in to face unsafe circumstances, that’s part of it. But I am a little old fashioned about that. As for telework, I think people should not kid themselves—employers singing its virtues today are very likely to take it away and do their best to make sure it never returns. They’ll commission studies purporting to show all its negatives.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Imagine sitting at home, doing little, while knowing that everything you worked for is going down the tubes. Imagine wondering how you are going to feed your family. Now imagine it's because a bunch of elites decided that you were expendable so they could eat cake.

That's why there are protests.

Well, in Canada they have health care AND unemployed people are getting 2000 a month to live.

If you are watching everything you've ever built in your life going down the tubes because of a two month stay at home order, you don't have enough money to afford to vote republican.

It doesn't have to be this way, but the "we must open and sacrifice ourselves to the god of money" protestors don't seem to care.

Wow!! Open the mint!

The great thing about capitalism is you control your own destiny. Sitting around depending on handouts only works as long as there are handouts to give. How long can the Canadians keep giving out free money? Where will they get the tax revenue to pay for it if no one is working?

Ok, so where is the "capitalism" when it comes to the farmers who get bailout after bailout, most recently more than $30B because of Trump's tarrifs; where is "capitalism" when it comes to the banks in 2008 and 2020, or the auto industry in 2008 or the airlines and hotels in 2020? It is a lot less expensive, in a situation like this, to simply send every taxpayer $2000 a month and let them spend it on the food and rent they need to exist and deal with the big business side later. After all, they can use those dollars for the high priority items they need- food, rent/mortgage, utilities, insurance. THAT is more capitalistic than what the GOP is doing, dolling out over a trillion dollars, unaccounted to fat cat companies.

Handouts indeed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
My protection remains to be seen.

I assume that if governors in blue states deem it reasonably appropriate — following actual scientific guidelines — to ease off on the stay home orders, that they will be doing so for reasons other than to preserve Donald Trump’s political fortunes and a wallet (certainly not the meager contents of my wallet). The advice here about shut downs bothers me a little because I think it too often seems to reflect an incomplete perspective. I do not necessarily see this as a red/blue divide, even though there is obviously great merit in the argument that some red state governors have acted like reckless fools, and that Trump has too. He will surely be defeated because voters are sick of looking at him.

At some point, offices have to open. Where I happen to have little faith in employers is in what they will do when employees return. My personal hope is that more employees recognize that they have tremendous potential power to band together and act collectively. If part of that means striking to avoid going in to face unsafe circumstances, that’s part of it. But I am a little old fashioned about that. As for telework, I think people should not kid themselves—employers singing its virtues today are very likely to take it away and do their best to make sure it never returns. They’ll commission studies purporting to show all its negatives.

One of the conditions laid out by the administration is 14 days of declining new cases and deaths. There is NO state where that is happening right now. Ergo, setting an open date without that condition is going against the stated guidelines. Further, in order to be able to open, there has to be readily available masks, gloves, PPE and most important, testing. Having the emergency lifted, thus forcing business owners into the box of making their employees return to work when it isn't necessarily safe, is a huge dilemma that only benefits the property owner who is now able to collect rent or force a business out. That doesn't benefit ANYONE. None of this makes logical sense if I live in Georgia, for example.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
My protection remains to be seen.

I assume that if governors in blue states deem it reasonably appropriate — following actual scientific guidelines — to ease off on the stay home orders, that they will be doing so for reasons other than to preserve Donald Trump’s political fortunes and a wallet (certainly not the meager contents of my wallet). The advice here about shut downs bothers me a little because I think it too often seems to reflect an incomplete perspective. I do not necessarily see this as a red/blue divide, even though there is obviously great merit in the argument that some red state governors have acted like reckless fools, and that Trump has too. He will surely be defeated because voters are sick of looking at him.

At some point, offices have to open. Where I happen to have little faith in employers is in what they will do when employees return. My personal hope is that more employees recognize that they have tremendous potential power to band together and act collectively. If part of that means striking to avoid going in to face unsafe circumstances, that’s part of it. But I am a little old fashioned about that. As for telework, I think people should not kid themselves—employers singing its virtues today are very likely to take it away and do their best to make sure it never returns. They’ll commission studies purporting to show all its negatives.

One of the conditions laid out by the administration is 14 days of declining new cases and deaths. There is NO state where that is happening right now. Ergo, setting an open date without that condition is going against the stated guidelines. Further, in order to be able to open, there has to be readily available masks, gloves, PPE and most important, testing. Having the emergency lifted, thus forcing business owners into the box of making their employees return to work when it isn't necessarily safe, is a huge dilemma that only benefits the property owner who is now able to collect rent or force a business out. That doesn't benefit ANYONE. None of this makes logical sense if I live in Georgia, for example.

You need to review the criteria again.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Imagine sitting at home, doing little, while knowing that everything you worked for is going down the tubes. Imagine wondering how you are going to feed your family. Now imagine it's because a bunch of elites decided that you were expendable so they could eat cake.

That's why there are protests.

Well, in Canada they have health care AND unemployed people are getting 2000 a month to live.

If you are watching everything you've ever built in your life going down the tubes because of a two month stay at home order, you don't have enough money to afford to vote republican.

It doesn't have to be this way, but the "we must open and sacrifice ourselves to the god of money" protestors don't seem to care.

Wow!! Open the mint!

The great thing about capitalism is you control your own destiny. Sitting around depending on handouts only works as long as there are handouts to give. How long can the Canadians keep giving out free money? Where will they get the tax revenue to pay for it if no one is working?

Ok, so where is the "capitalism" when it comes to the farmers who get bailout after bailout, most recently more than $30B because of Trump's tarrifs; where is "capitalism" when it comes to the banks in 2008 and 2020, or the auto industry in 2008 or the airlines and hotels in 2020? It is a lot less expensive, in a situation like this, to simply send every taxpayer $2000 a month and let them spend it on the food and rent they need to exist and deal with the big business side later. After all, they can use those dollars for the high priority items they need- food, rent/mortgage, utilities, insurance. THAT is more capitalistic than what the GOP is doing, dolling out over a trillion dollars, unaccounted to fat cat companies.

Handouts indeed.

Exactly. The comments about “handouts” are laughable. Bailouts and billionaire tax cuts massively eclipse taxpayer payouts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I tend to think that some actual members of the working class might reasonably want reopenings for reasons that have little or nothing to do with GOP CEOs’ stock holdings.

You should find an actual member of the working class and ask them. I guarantee that you are not one.

DP. You are right- I am a government employee and am grateful that I am not likely to lose my job. But I have plenty of family members who are working class, some are still working in essential positions. My 66yo dad has no business being out there working with his smoking history but he fears losing his paycheck more than the virus. So he continues to work.

The tone deafness in this board is astounding to me sometimes. Be the liberal you profess to be and put yourself in someone else’s shoes.

Exactly what do you think should be done?

DP. Maybe just try to think a little harder about a response other than "you first" and stock market gains.

+1. It’s incredibly rude and out of touch.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There seems to be a lot of competing viewpoints on what the endgame is here. For some it’s obviously a vaccine, and we should all stay home until then. I don’t think that is realistic for a number of reasons. I thought Hogan’s plan was practical and included straightforward goals. There needs to be more testing and shoring up of hospitals. Flattening year curve still means that most of us will likely be exposed, just over a longer period of time. Those that don’t want to risk being exposed at all should continue take extra precautions.

But yes, other states are in fact “going first“, so we will be able to see how it turns out for them before the DMV really opens up.

This is EVERYBODY's PLAN, it's just that one side wants to get moving now, testing and supplies be damned. Not smart.

Is it? Seems like there are some that want to stay home indefinitely. It will always be “too soon” for someone.

Name them.

Pretty much every teacher and daycare teacher for starters. Teachers unions will come out hard against reopening.

I can't imagine why a daycare teacher or teacher in a school - which are petri dishes to begin with - don't want to be more critically exposed to kids, and their families, or worse, they don't want to expose the kids or their families themselves.

How about you go do it first?

I’m a Fed, so we probably will be some of the first back in the office and riding metro, but not sure *how* if I have no childcare.

I think it depends on where your office is located. Managers have broad discretion, but managers being managers, expect the worst and hope for the mediocre. The plan seems to envision masked employees sitting around a conference table, with ample hand sanitizer and toilet paper available. I'm not sure that the Metro is first and foremost in Trump's mind. Most Republicans don't commute by Metro. But I doubt most of the neoliberal people here do either.

Who exactly do you think is riding metro then? On normal weekdays it is backed during rush hour. I for one do not have a practical way to get to work without it.

[Anonymous]

Packed not backed

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I tend to think that some actual members of the working class might reasonably want reopenings for reasons that have little or nothing to do with GOP CEOs’ stock holdings.

You should find an actual member of the working class and ask them. I guarantee that you are not one.

DP. You are right- I am a government employee and am grateful that I am not likely to lose my job. But I have plenty of family members who are working class, some are still working in essential positions. My 66yo dad has no business being out there working with his smoking history but he fears losing his paycheck more than the virus. So he continues to work.

The tone deafness in this board is astounding to me sometimes. Be the liberal you profess to be and put yourself in someone else’s shoes.

Exactly what do you think should be done?

DP. Maybe just try to think a little harder about a response other than "you first" and stock market gains.

+1. It’s incredibly rude and out of touch.

It’s a bumper sticker, not an argument.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There seems to be a lot of competing viewpoints on what the endgame is here. For some it’s obviously a vaccine, and we should all stay home until then. I don’t think that is realistic for a number of reasons. I thought Hogan’s plan was practical and included straightforward goals. There needs to be more testing and shoring up of hospitals. Flattening year curve still means that most of us will likely be exposed, just over a longer period of time. Those that don’t want to risk being exposed at all should continue take extra precautions.

But yes, other states are in fact “going first“, so we will be able to see how it turns out for them before the DMV really opens up.

This is EVERYBODY's PLAN, it's just that one side wants to get moving now, testing and supplies be damned. Not smart.

Is it? Seems like there are some that want to stay home indefinitely. It will always be “too soon” for someone.

Name them.

Pretty much every teacher and daycare teacher for starters. Teachers unions will come out hard against reopening.

I can't imagine why a daycare teacher or teacher in a school - which are petri dishes to begin with - don't want to be more critically exposed to kids, and their families, or worse, they don't want to expose the kids or their families themselves.

How about you go do it first?

I’m a Fed, so we probably will be some of the first back in the office and riding metro, but not sure *how* if I have no childcare.

I think it depends on where your office is located. Managers have broad discretion, but managers being managers, expect the worst and hope for the mediocre. The plan seems to envision masked employees sitting around a conference table, with ample hand sanitizer and toilet paper available. I'm not sure that the Metro is first and foremost in Trump's mind. Most Republicans don't commute by Metro. But I doubt most of the neoliberal people here do either.

Who exactly do you think is riding metro then? On normal weekdays it is backed during rush hour. I for one do not have a practical way to get to work without it.

The DC area working class and the occasional plutocrat whose Uber didn’t arrive on time.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I tend to think that some actual members of the working class might reasonably want reopenings for reasons that have little or nothing to do with GOP CEOs’ stock holdings.

You should find an actual member of the working class and ask them. I guarantee that you are not one.

DP. You are right- I am a government employee and am grateful that I am not likely to lose my job. But I have plenty of family members who are working class, some are still working in essential positions. My 66yo dad has no business being out there working with his smoking history but he fears losing his paycheck more than the virus. So he continues to work.

The tone deafness in this board is astounding to me sometimes. Be the liberal you profess to be and put yourself in someone else’s shoes.

Exactly what do you think should be done?

DP. Maybe just try to think a little harder about a response other than "you first" and stock market gains.

+1. It’s incredibly rude and out of touch.

It’s a bumper sticker, not an argument.

So, none of you guys have any idea what should be done but you definitely want someone else to go first. Have I got that right?