The prospect of kids not going back to school until 2021

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
The partitions might be a good idea, but the hallways are very risky in high school. At my son's school, they give rewards for walking quickly in the hallways and not talking to friends, that's how crowded they are.

I thought about getting rides to school, but honestly, it could take an hour to drop off at a high school if everyone drove. They just aren't set up that way. Most kids aren't walkers either.

That was me coming up with a plan with 2 minutes of thought. It's not perfect, and I"m sure the experts at MCPS can do better -- if they want to. Maybe they slightly stagger start times so some people have a first period class and some don't, to ease getting to school. Maybe they set up drop-off points a few blocks away and kids walk from there.

For hallways, maybe they set up class schedules so you only need to chagne classroom every other period (teacher comes to you), or one-way hallways plus staggered bell times, or even re=route some hallways to use outdoor walkways too. Who knows.. Point is, it's possible with some creative thinking... if MCPS is willing to do that.

Unfortunately, we don't have much faith in MCPS on this. We're 10 weeks away, and only this Sunday they said they're going to issue a survey to parents "in the coming weeks". Meanwhile, Fairfax is going to have a decision made in 10 days.

Whatever a school system decides, there are so many pieces that need to fall into place, and even if they were to decide today, 10 weeks is cutting it tight. There's so much logistics to figure out. It's a school system with 160k kids.

Am I the only one? Is MCPS really going to pull things off smoothly by the end of August?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:All of the kids are *really* being harmed by these closures.

Some of the kids are being harmed *even more* than others.

I'm the PP you're quoting, and I disagree that all kids are really being harmed. Some of the less social ones with resources out the wazoo are probably minimally affected.

I still think the default should be opening schools for as many kids as possible. To follow up on a DP, I have very, very little faith in MCPS to make this happen. That they haven't sent out their survey on the topic is... not promising.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The partitions might be a good idea, but the hallways are very risky in high school. At my son's school, they give rewards for walking quickly in the hallways and not talking to friends, that's how crowded they are.

I thought about getting rides to school, but honestly, it could take an hour to drop off at a high school if everyone drove. They just aren't set up that way. Most kids aren't walkers either.

That was me coming up with a plan with 2 minutes of thought. It's not perfect, and I"m sure the experts at MCPS can do better -- if they want to. Maybe they slightly stagger start times so some people have a first period class and some don't, to ease getting to school. Maybe they set up drop-off points a few blocks away and kids walk from there.

For hallways, maybe they set up class schedules so you only need to chagne classroom every other period (teacher comes to you), or one-way hallways plus staggered bell times, or even re=route some hallways to use outdoor walkways too. Who knows.. Point is, it's possible with some creative thinking... if MCPS is willing to do that.

Unfortunately, we don't have much faith in MCPS on this. We're 10 weeks away, and only this Sunday they said they're going to issue a survey to parents "in the coming weeks". Meanwhile, Fairfax is going to have a decision made in 10 days.

Whatever a school system decides, there are so many pieces that need to fall into place, and even if they were to decide today, 10 weeks is cutting it tight. There's so much logistics to figure out. It's a school system with 160k kids.

Am I the only one? Is MCPS really going to pull things off smoothly by the end of August?

I don't think that's a good idea. It's still 10 weeks until school starts. Far too soon to make a decision.They need to lay out options: if x, then y; but if a, then b.

I would love for MCPS to announce that there will be school in the fall, with as many protective measures as are feasible, but even I believe that MCPS also and concurrently needs to develop fallback options.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
I don't think that's a good idea. It's still 10 weeks until school starts. Far too soon to make a decision.They need to lay out options: if x, then y; but if a, then b.

I would love for MCPS to announce that there will be school in the fall, with as many protective measures as are feasible, but even I believe that MCPS also and concurrently needs to develop fallback options.

I'm fine with an If x then y set of options, tied to health statistics. That's still a decision. Right now, we have no decision at all, and no dates on when we'll have one. Maybe I'm just jaded (and we've been in MCPS for only 2 years!) but while I love all the teachers we've had, central office administration and leadership has left a lot to be desired.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:With the numbers in MOCO consistently getting better every day I don't see how MCPS is going to have a basis for continuing DL in the fall. If it continues to decline there will be no basis for a DL decision.

If things change, they change but if we stay on our current trajectory I feel like f2f needs to happen.

The reason the numbers have been getting better is BECAUSE schools and businesses closed and we all stayed home.

There is no way to know if that was the reason. But data has been consistently showing that schools are not a major source of the spread. And daycares haven't had issues and have been operating this whole time in at least some capacity.

So no, I don't think that's the reason the numbers are going down.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I don't think that's a good idea. It's still 10 weeks until school starts. Far too soon to make a decision.They need to lay out options: if x, then y; but if a, then b.

I would love for MCPS to announce that there will be school in the fall, with as many protective measures as are feasible, but even I believe that MCPS also and concurrently needs to develop fallback options.

I'm fine with an If x then y set of options, tied to health statistics. That's still a decision. Right now, we have no decision at all, and no dates on when we'll have one. Maybe I'm just jaded (and we've been in MCPS for only 2 years!) but while I love all the teachers we've had, central office administration and leadership has left a lot to be desired.

Amen to that. I feel like, if there is going to be distance learning, or staggered schedule learning, they really need to adjust the curriculum and teaching methodologies to reflect that. At this point, I don't see how they are going to have time to do that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I don't think that's a good idea. It's still 10 weeks until school starts. Far too soon to make a decision.They need to lay out options: if x, then y; but if a, then b.

I would love for MCPS to announce that there will be school in the fall, with as many protective measures as are feasible, but even I believe that MCPS also and concurrently needs to develop fallback options.

I'm fine with an If x then y set of options, tied to health statistics. That's still a decision. Right now, we have no decision at all, and no dates on when we'll have one. Maybe I'm just jaded (and we've been in MCPS for only 2 years!) but while I love all the teachers we've had, central office administration and leadership has left a lot to be desired.

Amen to that. I feel like, if there is going to be distance learning, or staggered schedule learning, they really need to adjust the curriculum and teaching methodologies to reflect that. At this point, I don't see how they are going to have time to do that.

I'm really skeptical. For example, let's say they decide to have those cardboard dividers on each desk. How many do they need to order, 150,000? It's not like that volume is just sitting in the manufacturer's warehouse, especially if all other school systems get the same idea. I bet if you placed an order that large right now, you'd be lucky to have it arrive by end of August. That's just one item. Think of every other item they'd need -- PPE, sanitizer stations and supplies, probably some kind of divider in the uses separating the driver from the kids. All those need to be ordered, in bulk, arrive in the MCPS warehouse, then be installed in every school/bus. How is that achievable in 10 weeks?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The partitions might be a good idea, but the hallways are very risky in high school. At my son's school, they give rewards for walking quickly in the hallways and not talking to friends, that's how crowded they are.

I thought about getting rides to school, but honestly, it could take an hour to drop off at a high school if everyone drove. They just aren't set up that way. Most kids aren't walkers either.

That was me coming up with a plan with 2 minutes of thought. It's not perfect, and I"m sure the experts at MCPS can do better -- if they want to. Maybe they slightly stagger start times so some people have a first period class and some don't, to ease getting to school. Maybe they set up drop-off points a few blocks away and kids walk from there.

For hallways, maybe they set up class schedules so you only need to chagne classroom every other period (teacher comes to you), or one-way hallways plus staggered bell times, or even re=route some hallways to use outdoor walkways too. Who knows.. Point is, it's possible with some creative thinking... if MCPS is willing to do that.

Unfortunately, we don't have much faith in MCPS on this. We're 10 weeks away, and only this Sunday they said they're going to issue a survey to parents "in the coming weeks". Meanwhile, Fairfax is going to have a decision made in 10 days.

Whatever a school system decides, there are so many pieces that need to fall into place, and even if they were to decide today, 10 weeks is cutting it tight. There's so much logistics to figure out. It's a school system with 160k kids.

Am I the only one? Is MCPS really going to pull things off smoothly by the end of August?

I like all of your ideas and have thought about similar things. One point in the CDC guidance is to minimize the number of people any one person is exposed to, so the idea plan would be grouping all kids who have similar classes together and leaving them in one classroom. Lunches would need o be eaten in the classroom as well. Masks would be mandatory in the hallways, although I still have concerns about that.

To minimize risk to teachers, maybe they would move after students are already in the classrooms?

I get bogged down when I think things though, because if you bother to keep kids in small groups to minimize risk, is it all defeated by riding with different kids on the bus? And if you jump through all of these hoops, should there be sports or after school activities? Because that could defeat the purpose of the small groups too. Smaller groups with more limited exposure make it easier to isolate and contact trace if it necessary, thereby limiting the spread.

If public health experts deem it safe for in person school under normal conditions I will be thrilled. On the other hand, if returning safely involves many restrictions, the point I was trying to make in my sarcastic post above is that some of the non-COVID harms being complained about won't fully disappear in a restricted school environment. There probably won't be field trips or other fun large gatherings like dances. I guess after school activities will be easier to social distance, so those might happen. Still, the full social benefits of school might not be there.

I also like the idea of partitions and staggered start times, but how do you do that with transportation? I am in Howard County, where the buses already make three trips each day and school start times are as early as 7:20 and as late as 9:25 (For elementary). Could extra trips be worked in? There is barely enough parking in the high school lot and the carpool line takes forever as it is. And partitions cost money The districts are already cash strapped as it is, and already invested in Chromebook for DL. Every county and the State are going to be cash strapped for many years to come.

What happens if kids start testing positive? Do you close the school or just certain areas of the school?

It sucks all the way around. People seem to think there are easy answers, but short of returning to normal, are there?

One of the reasons I am resigned to DL for my older kids is because I question whether you can come up with well thought out plans for various options. If the plan is to return to school with DL as a backup, will DL be as effective as it would have been if we just committed to DL for older kids earlier? Do we need three plans, or one well thought out one that will work no matter what? And if we try to return to school, doesn't DL have to be offered for kids who are medically vulnerable or have family members in that situation? They are still required to receive a public education.

My kids have said that as much as they hated DL, they would be ok with it if it consisted of more instruction time rather than just check ins. They have also said they are fine with allowing certain populations, such as younger kids, kids with special needs or other disadvantaged populations return for in person learning because they need it the most. For better or worse, from listening to school board meetings, my kids understand the emphasis placed on equity and helping bring the disadvantaged up. They know that when resources are limited, their needs matter less.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe there should be designated schools for people demanding in person education for their children without any safety, sanitation, or social distancing measures in place. The county can concentrate high quality masks on the teachers in those schools, provide for social distancing for the teachers (not the students) and staff, and perhaps pay them a bit more. Those kids can get up as early as they need to so that they can be transported on crowded buses to the designated schools. Designated schools can have sporting competitions against each other. There will be no health screening to inconvenience parents or students. It will be business as usual with every seat filled.

That will make room for all the rest of us who recognize that no government entity created this pandemic and who have compassion for the adult administrators, staff, and teachers who have to try to formulate the best possible plan with limited funding. These schools schools will flexible scheduling, greater social distancing for all, and nicer kids and parents. Hopefully, in exchange for the inconvenience associated with measures to promote public health, these schools will have the best teachers too.

What's with the black and white thinking? Is it easier, emotionally, to vilify people who have different needs and/or different perspectives than you? Man. You get to the point where any benefit to society from not spreading COVID--in theory, at least--is washed away by how judgmental and critical you are of others. Nicer parents? Not likely, with this kind of attitude.

Then what is your solution? What social distancing measures can be put in place in a crowded high school where there is no room for additional chairs and every seat is taken? Maybe I am just frustrated because I don't think we should have such severe overcrowding in the first place, but I can't figure out a way to promote social distancing, small groups, limited exposure, and all the other things the CDC recommends in the high school setting.

My solution would be to follow MD"s own recovery plan:
http://marylandpublicschools.org/newsroom/Documents/MSDERecoveryPlan.pdf

Page 8 (page 11 in the PDF) goes over layouts:

"Modified Layouts
• Space seating/desks at least 6 feet apart when feasible.
• Turn desks to face in the same direction (rather than facing each other), or have students sit on only one side of
tables, spaced apart."

High school desks normally don't face each other anyway. They aren't 6 feet apart, but it's not a requirement either. Maybe add partitions on top of each desk like these: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Privacy-Shields-Assorted-Colors/322832919

For between classes, either require masks and/or make hallways one-way only. Or stagger bell-times so one group is out there in the first 5 minutes, and the next for the other 5 minutes.

Yes, every option has risks, but we can minimize those risks. Other school systems are overcrowded, both in the US and abroad, and they are coming up with ways to open. Surely we can be creative here as well.

The recovery plan lays out other procedures as well. Eating lunch in classroom not cafeteria, etc. The tricky one is buses but I bet you'd find a lot of kids who opt to walk/get a ride with parents, so you can keep capacity on buses down if you try.

The partitions might be a good idea, but the hallways are very risky in high school. At my son's school, they give rewards for walking quickly in the hallways and not talking to friends, that's how crowded they are.

I thought about getting rides to school, but honestly, it could take an hour to drop off at a high school if everyone drove. They just aren't set up that way. Most kids aren't walkers either.

With a little creativity, I'm sure they could come up with alternatives to everyone descending upon the hallways at once. Maybe a longer time between classes with staggered release.

[Anonymous]

The mental harms of school closure is highest on HS kids. I don't agree that they can be sacrificed with some ad-hoc procedures with question mark benefits.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
I like all of your ideas and have thought about similar things. One point in the CDC guidance is to minimize the number of people any one person is exposed to, so the idea plan would be grouping all kids who have similar classes together and leaving them in one classroom. Lunches would need o be eaten in the classroom as well. Masks would be mandatory in the hallways, although I still have concerns about that.

To minimize risk to teachers, maybe they would move after students are already in the classrooms?

I get bogged down when I think things though, because if you bother to keep kids in small groups to minimize risk, is it all defeated by riding with different kids on the bus? And if you jump through all of these hoops, should there be sports or after school activities? Because that could defeat the purpose of the small groups too. Smaller groups with more limited exposure make it easier to isolate and contact trace if it necessary, thereby limiting the spread.

If public health experts deem it safe for in person school under normal conditions I will be thrilled. On the other hand, if returning safely involves many restrictions, the point I was trying to make in my sarcastic post above is that some of the non-COVID harms being complained about won't fully disappear in a restricted school environment. There probably won't be field trips or other fun large gatherings like dances. I guess after school activities will be easier to social distance, so those might happen. Still, the full social benefits of school might not be there.

I also like the idea of partitions and staggered start times, but how do you do that with transportation? I am in Howard County, where the buses already make three trips each day and school start times are as early as 7:20 and as late as 9:25 (For elementary). Could extra trips be worked in? There is barely enough parking in the high school lot and the carpool line takes forever as it is. And partitions cost money The districts are already cash strapped as it is, and already invested in Chromebook for DL. Every county and the State are going to be cash strapped for many years to come.

What happens if kids start testing positive? Do you close the school or just certain areas of the school?

It sucks all the way around. People seem to think there are easy answers, but short of returning to normal, are there?

One of the reasons I am resigned to DL for my older kids is because I question whether you can come up with well thought out plans for various options. If the plan is to return to school with DL as a backup, will DL be as effective as it would have been if we just committed to DL for older kids earlier? Do we need three plans, or one well thought out one that will work no matter what? And if we try to return to school, doesn't DL have to be offered for kids who are medically vulnerable or have family members in that situation? They are still required to receive a public education.

My kids have said that as much as they hated DL, they would be ok with it if it consisted of more instruction time rather than just check ins. They have also said they are fine with allowing certain populations, such as younger kids, kids with special needs or other disadvantaged populations return for in person learning because they need it the most. For better or worse, from listening to school board meetings, my kids understand the emphasis placed on equity and helping bring the disadvantaged up. They know that when resources are limited, their needs matter less.

You raise really good questions. We're not public health experts, nor are we public eduactino experts. Yet we seem to be coming up with the right questions, and coming up with some creative solutions.

If we can do it, then surely MCPS _can_ do it better. They've had months to think about this. The question is, are they, and can they? I have my doubts...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The partitions might be a good idea, but the hallways are very risky in high school. At my son's school, they give rewards for walking quickly in the hallways and not talking to friends, that's how crowded they are.

I thought about getting rides to school, but honestly, it could take an hour to drop off at a high school if everyone drove. They just aren't set up that way. Most kids aren't walkers either.

That was me coming up with a plan with 2 minutes of thought. It's not perfect, and I"m sure the experts at MCPS can do better -- if they want to. Maybe they slightly stagger start times so some people have a first period class and some don't, to ease getting to school. Maybe they set up drop-off points a few blocks away and kids walk from there.

For hallways, maybe they set up class schedules so you only need to chagne classroom every other period (teacher comes to you), or one-way hallways plus staggered bell times, or even re=route some hallways to use outdoor walkways too. Who knows.. Point is, it's possible with some creative thinking... if MCPS is willing to do that.

Unfortunately, we don't have much faith in MCPS on this. We're 10 weeks away, and only this Sunday they said they're going to issue a survey to parents "in the coming weeks". Meanwhile, Fairfax is going to have a decision made in 10 days.

Whatever a school system decides, there are so many pieces that need to fall into place, and even if they were to decide today, 10 weeks is cutting it tight. There's so much logistics to figure out. It's a school system with 160k kids.

Am I the only one? Is MCPS really going to pull things off smoothly by the end of August?

The only way to make F2F work safely in secondary schools will be to hire thousands of teachers. Otherwise, you can’t stagger classes enough. Secondary teachers will not be paid to teach classes over a ten hour stretch. And many teachers have young children, second jobs, or grad school programs that they need to attend to afterschool.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The partitions might be a good idea, but the hallways are very risky in high school. At my son's school, they give rewards for walking quickly in the hallways and not talking to friends, that's how crowded they are.

I thought about getting rides to school, but honestly, it could take an hour to drop off at a high school if everyone drove. They just aren't set up that way. Most kids aren't walkers either.

That was me coming up with a plan with 2 minutes of thought. It's not perfect, and I"m sure the experts at MCPS can do better -- if they want to. Maybe they slightly stagger start times so some people have a first period class and some don't, to ease getting to school. Maybe they set up drop-off points a few blocks away and kids walk from there.

For hallways, maybe they set up class schedules so you only need to chagne classroom every other period (teacher comes to you), or one-way hallways plus staggered bell times, or even re=route some hallways to use outdoor walkways too. Who knows.. Point is, it's possible with some creative thinking... if MCPS is willing to do that.

Unfortunately, we don't have much faith in MCPS on this. We're 10 weeks away, and only this Sunday they said they're going to issue a survey to parents "in the coming weeks". Meanwhile, Fairfax is going to have a decision made in 10 days.

Whatever a school system decides, there are so many pieces that need to fall into place, and even if they were to decide today, 10 weeks is cutting it tight. There's so much logistics to figure out. It's a school system with 160k kids.

Am I the only one? Is MCPS really going to pull things off smoothly by the end of August?

By secondary school, schedules are too complex to do that. Math has the biggest impact. But you might have a highly advanced math student in the same English class as one retaking Algebra 1. And even an advanced math class could have ESOL 2 or 3 students who can’t also take Honors or AP English. There would be uproar on this site if students were mixed together to accomplish this. If there’s anything DCUM Hayes more than COVID, it’s mixed ability classes. I can see the posts now: “This is social engineering!”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

The only way to make F2F work safely in secondary schools will be to hire thousands of teachers. Otherwise, you can’t stagger classes enough. Secondary teachers will not be paid to teach classes over a ten hour stretch. And many teachers have young children, second jobs, or grad school programs that they need to attend to afterschool.

But what if schools don't contribute much to the spread of coronavirus?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:High risk DH has 15 days to put in his retirement papers. He’s talked to multiple people from school level admin to central office. Everyone said F2F in the fall was highly unlikely and he should consider retiring after S1.

If true, this is shameful. Kids have already missed 3 months of school. That's enough. Kids need to be in school.

As for the teachers - if there's a medical reason, then MCPS will have to provide a reasonable accommodation (e.g., distance teaching). But if there's no medical reason, then people who don't want to teach in-person will either have to do so anyway, or find a different job. Teaching in-person is an essential function of the teaching job.

It doesn't matter how long they've "missed" in-person learning. We're in the middle of a pandemic that shows no signs of abating. If it's not safe, in-person learning is not happening. And it won't be happening until January 2021 (at the earliest). Don't you care about your kids' safety, not to mention the safety of the teachers and other personnel?