APS middle school boundary process

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:YES, enough with the racism because "poverty" is not necessarily the problem, but the fact that APS does not have adequate (teacher) resources to help the non English speakers excel in the classrooms. So the teachers spend extra class time getting everyone same level which affects the students who are ahead or don't have the English translation problems.

Why can't APS at minimum address these classroom problems and hire more ESL teacher aids rather than more bus drivers!!

I disagree. Have you ever visited a school with a high percentage of language learners? There are plenty of teachers to help those students. And APS provides ALL educators in the school with appropriate training. Do you know what helps non English speakers excel in the classroom the most? Being around native English speakers, where they can hear rich authentic conversations and discussions centered around academics.
Please don't place the blame on not having adequate resources. APS has plenty of resources. Schools and children fail when poverty is concentrated. Many studies have been done on this. Here is an article that is an interesting read from The Atlantic, "https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2016/02/concentration-poverty-american-schools/471414/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:YES, enough with the racism because "poverty" is not necessarily the problem, but the fact that APS does not have adequate (teacher) resources to help the non English speakers excel in the classrooms. So the teachers spend extra class time getting everyone same level which affects the students who are ahead or don't have the English translation problems.

Why can't APS at minimum address these classroom problems and hire more ESL teacher aids rather than more bus drivers!!

I disagree. Have you ever visited a school with a high percentage of language learners? There are plenty of teachers to help those students. And APS provides ALL educators in the school with appropriate training. Do you know what helps non English speakers excel in the classroom the most? Being around native English speakers, where they can hear rich authentic conversations and discussions centered around academics.
Please don't place the blame on not having adequate resources. APS has plenty of resources. Schools and children fail when poverty is concentrated. Many studies have been done on this. Here is an article that is an interesting read from The Atlantic, "https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2016/02/concentration-poverty-american-schools/471414/

And this is why many of us bought homes that are not in the concentrated poverty areas... Because such schools fail.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I disagree. Have you ever visited a school with a high percentage of language learners? There are plenty of teachers to help those students. And APS provides ALL educators in the school with appropriate training. Do you know what helps non English speakers excel in the classroom the most? Being around native English speakers, where they can hear rich authentic conversations and discussions centered around academics.
Please don't place the blame on not having adequate resources. APS has plenty of resources. Schools and children fail when poverty is concentrated. Many studies have been done on this. Here is an article that is an interesting read from The Atlantic, "https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2016/02/concentration-poverty-american-schools/471414/

And that is exactly what Arlington County has done - deliberately concentrated poverty in pockets of the county to enrich developers. Now they are asking some of us to sacrifice our kids to prop up schools which might otherwise tip towards failing. I don’t care whether my kids go to school with kids who are white, black, brown, or purple with green spots. I do care that APS wants to take my walkers and put them on a bus to fix their bad decisions. Not bad k, and if you think it is, then I hope that you are putting your kid in for a transfer to Kenmore.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I WANT to send my kids to a racially diverse school. The problem I have with Kenmore is all the studies showing poorer educational performance at schools at a poverty tipping point, usually around 40 to 45 percent. At 20, 30% percent, the other kids bring the poorer kids up with them, school has enough resources to deal. At 40% and higher levels of poverty in a school, school is just overwhelmed.

THAT, and the fact that Swanson is about a mile closer to us, is my objection to the move. But I'm not sure if I should object or let our family be used to help others in need.

The biggest problem with the county and APS is that it has put parents like you to this choice. Some parents don't value "diversity" (however defined) and some parents think their kids will do just fine regardless of demographics. The parents in the middle, who have to choose between their own kid's experience and what they may believe in as a broader community value, are faced with a really hard choice. And called racist when they struggle with it. This situation is depressing.

Keep in mind who it is calling others racist and take it with a huge grain of salt.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The county should set up a "diversity volunteer" program. All you people that support diversity can volunteer and send your child to a high farms school. But I bet none of you would sign up. Put your money where your mouth is!

They have done it- its called the immersion program. I and many others like me signed up.
Claremont- 38% FARMS
Key- 44% FARMS.
The largest number if transfers to Key are from Long Branch- followed by Taylor (with 4.2%FARMS).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The county should set up a "diversity volunteer" program. All you people that support diversity can volunteer and send your child to a high farms school. But I bet none of you would sign up. Put your money where your mouth is!

They have done it- its called the immersion program. I and many others like me signed up.
Claremont- 38% FARMS
Key- 44% FARMS.
The largest number if transfers to Key are from Long Branch- followed by Taylor (with 4.2%FARMS).

Good start, but I see 40pgs of people suggesting that we should all want diversity at any cost. I certainly hope all those families from Wburg and Stratford are offering to send their kids to S Arl middle schools even without the immersion program.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why don't we just be done with it and just have the government assign where we all live rather than the market?

This is why a lot of folks view many liberals as communists.

The government doesn't assign where anyone lives....anymore. People can make choices.

The government does draw school boundaries.

If there is something widely known to be a social ill, the government can use its legitimate power to correct that ill. It doesn't have to do things like tell people where to live.

So, there are differences in house values in different parts of the county. Surely this is not unique to Arlington. The government draws school boundaries. If it chooses to draw such boundaries to promote neighborhood schools, these schools will not be SES diverse. This apparently is a "social ill." Does this imply that anyone who purchases a home in an expensive area with neighborhood schools is racist? Is it legitimate for government to bus kids to make school more diverse? This, of course, reduces the value of houses in expensive areas and potentially increases it in cheaper areas. Is it a legitimate role of local government to dispossess the rich? Should anyone be surprised when rich liberals complain about having to spend more money for housing and then have the advantages of that housing taken away?

No, the government doesn't have to tell people where to live (except when engaging in subsidized housing), but does the government have the right to manipulate the relative pricing of housing, which in essence is the same thing? Some posters seem to think that it is inherently racist to live in expensive neighborhoods. What is the response to the inherent "racist" act of purchasing an expensive house? Presumably to not allow it. That's where the argument leads.


Why is subsidized housing called affordable? AFAICT, an occupied house or apartment was considered affordable at the time the owner purchased or rented it. Maybe if the supporters of subsidized housing weren't so disingenuous in their choice of language, it would have more support (but I doubt it).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The county should set up a "diversity volunteer" program. All you people that support diversity can volunteer and send your child to a high farms school. But I bet none of you would sign up. Put your money where your mouth is!

They have done it- its called the immersion program. I and many others like me signed up.
Claremont- 38% FARMS
Key- 44% FARMS.
The largest number if transfers to Key are from Long Branch- followed by Taylor (with 4.2%FARMS).

Which is no surprise because LB and Taylor are the closest *neighborhood* elementary schools to Key. There are similar patterns at Claremont, Campbell, and ATS if you look at the transfer data-- the largest numbers of families come from the closest neighborhood elementary schools. Like it or not, families prefer going to schools near their own houses (whether choice or neighborhood) because we value walkability in Arlington. Look at how we're restriping so many roads to take away car lanes and make things safer for bikes and pedestrians. We're all about the "Car Free Diet" these days. Traffic sucks. And we all know that traffic is the absolute worst on Carlin Springs Road because that was the #1 reason the School Board voted not to build a 4th comprehensive high school at Kenmore. So you can't hate on the Swanson people who would rather stay where they are-- walking up residential streets to Swanson-- than tangle with Route 50 and Carlin Springs at rush hour.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why don't we just be done with it and just have the government assign where we all live rather than the market?

This is why a lot of folks view many liberals as communists.

The government doesn't assign where anyone lives....anymore. People can make choices.

The government does draw school boundaries.

If there is something widely known to be a social ill, the government can use its legitimate power to correct that ill. It doesn't have to do things like tell people where to live.

So, there are differences in house values in different parts of the county. Surely this is not unique to Arlington. The government draws school boundaries. If it chooses to draw such boundaries to promote neighborhood schools, these schools will not be SES diverse. This apparently is a "social ill." Does this imply that anyone who purchases a home in an expensive area with neighborhood schools is racist? Is it legitimate for government to bus kids to make school more diverse? This, of course, reduces the value of houses in expensive areas and potentially increases it in cheaper areas. Is it a legitimate role of local government to dispossess the rich? Should anyone be surprised when rich liberals complain about having to spend more money for housing and then have the advantages of that housing taken away?

No, the government doesn't have to tell people where to live (except when engaging in subsidized housing), but does the government have the right to manipulate the relative pricing of housing, which in essence is the same thing? Some posters seem to think that it is inherently racist to live in expensive neighborhoods. What is the response to the inherent "racist" act of purchasing an expensive house? Presumably to not allow it. That's where the argument leads.


Why is subsidized housing called affordable? AFAICT, an occupied house or apartment was considered affordable at the time the owner purchased or rented it. Maybe if the supporters of subsidized housing weren't so disingenuous in their choice of language, it would have more support (but I doubt it).

Housing in Arlington is more expensive in majority white neighborhoods that feed into majority white/very low FARMS schools than it is in neighborhoods that feed into more diverse schools -- for comparable housing stock, commutes, etc., all within the same overall school district.

And to say the government doesn't have the "right to manipulate the relative pricing of housing" is ridiculous. First, changing school boundaries is going to have a marginal effect on real estate prices compared to other things, such as location (Arlington) and house size/condition. WITHIN Arlington it may have an effect, but in the overall real estate market -- hardly. Secondly, what the hell do you think ZONING is?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why don't we just be done with it and just have the government assign where we all live rather than the market?

This is why a lot of folks view many liberals as communists.

The government doesn't assign where anyone lives....anymore. People can make choices.

The government does draw school boundaries.

If there is something widely known to be a social ill, the government can use its legitimate power to correct that ill. It doesn't have to do things like tell people where to live.

So, there are differences in house values in different parts of the county. Surely this is not unique to Arlington. The government draws school boundaries. If it chooses to draw such boundaries to promote neighborhood schools, these schools will not be SES diverse. This apparently is a "social ill." Does this imply that anyone who purchases a home in an expensive area with neighborhood schools is racist? Is it legitimate for government to bus kids to make school more diverse? This, of course, reduces the value of houses in expensive areas and potentially increases it in cheaper areas. Is it a legitimate role of local government to dispossess the rich? Should anyone be surprised when rich liberals complain about having to spend more money for housing and then have the advantages of that housing taken away?

No, the government doesn't have to tell people where to live (except when engaging in subsidized housing), but does the government have the right to manipulate the relative pricing of housing, which in essence is the same thing? Some posters seem to think that it is inherently racist to live in expensive neighborhoods. What is the response to the inherent "racist" act of purchasing an expensive house? Presumably to not allow it. That's where the argument leads.


Why is subsidized housing called affordable? AFAICT, an occupied house or apartment was considered affordable at the time the owner purchased or rented it. Maybe if the supporters of subsidized housing weren't so disingenuous in their choice of language, it would have more support (but I doubt it).

Housing in Arlington is more expensive in majority white neighborhoods that feed into majority white/very low FARMS schools than it is in neighborhoods that feed into more diverse schools -- for comparable housing stock, commutes, etc., all within the same overall school district.

And to say the government doesn't have the "right to manipulate the relative pricing of housing" is ridiculous. First, changing school boundaries is going to have a marginal effect on real estate prices compared to other things, such as location (Arlington) and house size/condition. WITHIN Arlington it may have an effect, but in the overall real estate market -- hardly. Secondly, what the hell do you think ZONING is?

NP here. The point of the prior post just soared waaaay over your head. Whoosh.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why don't we just be done with it and just have the government assign where we all live rather than the market?

This is why a lot of folks view many liberals as communists.

The government doesn't assign where anyone lives....anymore. People can make choices.

The government does draw school boundaries.

If there is something widely known to be a social ill, the government can use its legitimate power to correct that ill. It doesn't have to do things like tell people where to live.

So, there are differences in house values in different parts of the county. Surely this is not unique to Arlington. The government draws school boundaries. If it chooses to draw such boundaries to promote neighborhood schools, these schools will not be SES diverse. This apparently is a "social ill." Does this imply that anyone who purchases a home in an expensive area with neighborhood schools is racist? Is it legitimate for government to bus kids to make school more diverse? This, of course, reduces the value of houses in expensive areas and potentially increases it in cheaper areas. Is it a legitimate role of local government to dispossess the rich? Should anyone be surprised when rich liberals complain about having to spend more money for housing and then have the advantages of that housing taken away?

No, the government doesn't have to tell people where to live (except when engaging in subsidized housing), but does the government have the right to manipulate the relative pricing of housing, which in essence is the same thing? Some posters seem to think that it is inherently racist to live in expensive neighborhoods. What is the response to the inherent "racist" act of purchasing an expensive house? Presumably to not allow it. That's where the argument leads.

So many questions! But here are some important one we haven't touched yet:
Does the government have the right to change school boundaries when schools (in an expensive area) become overcrowded? Do we, the people, have the right to ask for new schools, but then get angry when the boundaries are changed for us?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The county should set up a "diversity volunteer" program. All you people that support diversity can volunteer and send your child to a high farms school. But I bet none of you would sign up. Put your money where your mouth is!

They have done it- its called the immersion program. I and many others like me signed up.
Claremont- 38% FARMS
Key- 44% FARMS.
The largest number if transfers to Key are from Long Branch- followed by Taylor (with 4.2%FARMS).

Which is no surprise because LB and Taylor are the closest *neighborhood* elementary schools to Key. There are similar patterns at Claremont, Campbell, and ATS if you look at the transfer data-- the largest numbers of families come from the closest neighborhood elementary schools. Like it or not, families prefer going to schools near their own houses (whether choice or neighborhood) because we value walkability in Arlington. Look at how we're restriping so many roads to take away car lanes and make things safer for bikes and pedestrians. We're all about the "Car Free Diet" these days. Traffic sucks. And we all know that traffic is the absolute worst on Carlin Springs Road because that was the #1 reason the School Board voted not to build a 4th comprehensive high school at Kenmore. So you can't hate on the Swanson people who would rather stay where they are-- walking up residential streets to Swanson-- than tangle with Route 50 and Carlin Springs at rush hour.

You can't use Claremont and Campbell to extrapolate this conclusion. Up until this coming school year, they've had weighted lotteries. You had little to no hope of getting in via lottery unless you were in a preferred zone, which tended to be geographically close to each of those schools. ATS is the only school with an open lottery. But it's also hard to know whether the nearby parents were choosing greater proximity or the capped enrollment vs. overcrowding and construction at McKinley and Ashlawn.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I WANT to send my kids to a racially diverse school. The problem I have with Kenmore is all the studies showing poorer educational performance at schools at a poverty tipping point, usually around 40 to 45 percent. At 20, 30% percent, the other kids bring the poorer kids up with them, school has enough resources to deal. At 40% and higher levels of poverty in a school, school is just overwhelmed.

THAT, and the fact that Swanson is about a mile closer to us, is my objection to the move. But I'm not sure if I should object or let our family be used to help others in need.

NP here. I totally understand where the PP is coming from (and I live in South Arlington, have a child in a choice elementary school in North Arlington, and would not be zoned for Kenmore under any scenario, so I am not simiarly situated to PP). Families shouldn't be put in a situation where they have to weigh what's best for their child versus what's best for the broader community. No reasonable person is going to fault you for choosing what's best for your child, if given an option.

The problem here, as I see it, is the School Board. (And the County Board, but that's another topic/post). The School Board should be the entity that concerns itself with what's best for the whole county. It should look at the big picture, even if that means getting blowback from parents in certain schools/ neighborhoods/planning units/streets. But the School Board has abdicated this responsibility, and has established a pattern of capitulating to vocal groups of disgruntled parents looking to protect "their" status quo (e.g. the Nottingham contingent in the McKinley debacle and the Arlington Forest orange shirts). All at the expense of the big picture, and the best interests of the county as a whole. The School Board picks its favorites, and is left to tinker around the edges of what's left of the county map. No wonder this is ineffective. It also encourages obnoxious behavior from the parents. It works!

I wish the School Board would grow a spine, and commit itself to some coherent big picture policies. I may or may not like where they come out (and I understand that reasonable people can disagree on some of the tricky issues we are facing), but I would respect the process. I would be more likely to "take one for the team" if I thought the School Board (a) had a plan; and (b) was applying it even-handedly.

[Anonymous]

Already do. Along with a lot of others. So no need to keep insinuating hypocrisy from everyone who supports SED.

[Anonymous]

If I bought a nice house in North Arlington and the school board said my kids couldnt go to the neighborhood schools but instead had to be bussed to go to school with the poors, I would be irate. Anyone who can afford a nice house in NA is not going to stand for having their children condemned to an substandard education. That was the whole reason they bought the house in the first place.