Hardy vs. DCI

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Come on, it's not just a few disgruntled UMC parents who reject DCI after 5th grade in feeder schools. Most do. I've been dismayed to discovered that more than a dozen 4th graders at our feeder (not YY) bolted for BASIS this fall. You're relying on anecdotal evidence to look at DCI through rose-colored glasses. DCI isn't a bad school. It's just not better than Hardy academically, and it's future isn't as bright.

Basis goes deep in their waitlist. Most families like ours want a typical middle and high school experience for our DC where in addition to academics, there is a larger school and cohort, varied curriculum offerings, sports, outdoor green space, diversity, etc..,

Basis doesn’t cut it for many families. Maybe the families you know but large majority no

OK, but I've observed that the stronger students from our feeder have a strong tendency to peel off for BASIS. Wish it weren't so. DCI feeder parents who bail for BASIS worry that social promotion at DCI sinks the rigor, especially for math. Also, the partial language immersion just isn't serious outside Spanish (can't possibly be w/out native speakers). I've observed that parents of stronger students tend to give up on Mandarin and French after elementary if they can find more rigor for math, science, maybe social studies and English lit. If the Chinese and French were stronger, maybe they'd stay. DCI doesn't seem to care that they go, which gets us nowhere in particular.

Some stronger students might fit the hard core, take a zillion AP classes early and whose parents don’t care about anything outside academics, fine.

But if you think that is the only valuable learning experience for your kid, be my guest go to Basis. There are plenty of strong students from feeders who go the DCI route who themselves or their parents want a more rounded middle and high school experience.

DCI opened a middle school and high school just what 7 years ago? In addition, it’s an IB track and diploma which is not easy to set up and do. They take all and diversity of students in race, social background is varied. With this, they have good data with having kids at grade level and above. No other public or charter school at this age has come close in the past to what they have accomplished in this timeline.

I see those as huge accomplishments so far. But of course DCUM wants everything now - the most challenging curriculum, majority native speakers in all language even though population data doesn’t support it, best teachers, best leadership and administration, etc., etc...

There are lots of happy families and kids at DCI. The school has been on an upward trajectory and will continue that path. Families EOTP such as ours will be choosing the DCI route although we can afford to move WOTP. That trend will be here to stay with the overcrowding issues at WOTP schools which affects everything especially academics. Wilson’s honors for all is a disaster and doesn’t help either.

You can hate DCI if you want. You can feel threaten by DCI if you want. But it doesn’t change the fact that many families are choosing it and giving it a chance and have been happy. Is it perfect? Of course not but it’s working for lots of families. How do I know? Because their waitlist barely moves in any grade. People aren’t leaving. They are staying.

Those of us posting abut DCI's deficiencies aren't "threatened by DCI." We had the opportunity to send our children there and chose not to. Some of us are angry that the school is so poorly run when the opportunity was there to have made it a much better school than it is. Some of us had to move or shell out for private if we weren't lucky enough to get into Latin or Basis.

Most students from feeders go to DCI (and stay) due to lack of other options. So many parents told us they applied to Latin and Basis but didn't get in, so now they're at DCI. Not everyone has the money to move to the Deal or Hardy boundary or suburbs, or they don't want to give up their commute or neighborhood. This is why the boosters are so defensive. They get angry at anyone who shines a light on DCI's issues because they don't have any other appealing options.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So much melodrama. DCI does have its selling points and successes, but you're maladroitly glossing over egregious deficiencies.

DCI's MS insists on lumping kids who work 1,2 even 3 years ahead of grade level in a particular subject, be it science, English or social studies, into the same classes as many kids who work far behind grade level. Rigor for advanced students just doesn't tend to emerge from this calculus. Although Deal, Latin and BASIS do the same thing, other than for math, unlike DCI, they have the demographics to make the set up work pretty well. BASIS alone doesn't socially promote, meaning that, by 8th grade, students who can't handle the curriculum are generally gone.

You blame "demographics" for the dearth of native speakers at DCI, presumably on the Chinese and French tracks, but what about policies? Nothing comes home from DCI for family consumption in Chinese or French, and senior admins normally don't speak target languages, like at YY and Stokes. Also, no dialect transition support from Chinese dialects or Haitian creoles to Mandarin and French is provided, the norm in dual-immersion Chinese and French programs around the country. This approach alienates DC native speakers who might enroll. It also turns off parents who might pick DCI over serious partial immersion offered in the burbs and certain privates.

Most troubling, DCI's leadership, mostly furnished by YY, is known to be tone deaf, while Hardy's is known to be responsive. That's a key reason that Hardy is doing well attracting and retaining in-boundary families.

True. There's also the issue of lack of oversight. Charter school admins can afford to to alienate parents because there's nowhere for parents to go to complain. The boards are a joke, and there's no oversight. The Hardy admin has more incentive to collaborate with parents because there are many layers of oversight for DCPS parents to go to. This results in getting the right type of people in leadership roles, which trickles down to better teachers etc. A strong parent group at a DCPS has a lot of power. That's how they were able to turn around Hardy.

[Anonymous]

My 7th grade daughter attends DCI. She loves it, is happy, and is doing well academically. Added bonus: DCI is phenomenal with distance learning. We could have chosen other schools, but decided to give DCI a try, and I’m so glad we did.

2 types of parents seem to post here: those looking for information and disgruntled parents who want to complain. I love the people who’s kids never attended DCI, posting to say “here are the reasons we didn’t go here and that was the right choice.” Uh, okay, maybe. But why are you posting so passionately about a school your child doesn’t attend?

Talking to actual DCI parents is very different than what you get reading this thread. I’m not saying it’s perfect, but there are a lot of happy parents and students there. My kid is thriving there.

[Anonymous]

I think the parents are posting to explain why they didn't chose DCI because of the question OP asked, Hardy or DCI? The responses seem reasonable.

[Anonymous]

This "disgruntled parent" didn't want to complain. She wanted a well-run school following on from Lamb offering real challenge for a 6th-8th grader and strong partial immersion studies.

She didn't get that. So she left for her in-boundary middle school, Hardy.

Much better, thanks. Even the Spanish is better taught at Hardy. Seriously.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So much melodrama. DCI does have its selling points and successes, but you're maladroitly glossing over egregious deficiencies.

DCI's MS insists on lumping kids who work 1,2 even 3 years ahead of grade level in a particular subject, be it science, English or social studies, into the same classes as many kids who work far behind grade level. Rigor for advanced students just doesn't tend to emerge from this calculus. Although Deal, Latin and BASIS do the same thing, other than for math, unlike DCI, they have the demographics to make the set up work pretty well. BASIS alone doesn't socially promote, meaning that, by 8th grade, students who can't handle the curriculum are generally gone.

You blame "demographics" for the dearth of native speakers at DCI, presumably on the Chinese and French tracks, but what about policies? Nothing comes home from DCI for family consumption in Chinese or French, and senior admins normally don't speak target languages, like at YY and Stokes. Also, no dialect transition support from Chinese dialects or Haitian creoles to Mandarin and French is provided, the norm in dual-immersion Chinese and French programs around the country. This approach alienates DC native speakers who might enroll. It also turns off parents who might pick DCI over serious partial immersion offered in the burbs and certain privates.

Most troubling, DCI's leadership, mostly furnished by YY, is known to be tone deaf, while Hardy's is known to be responsive. That's a key reason that Hardy is doing well attracting and retaining in-boundary families.

True. There's also the issue of lack of oversight. Charter school admins can afford to to alienate parents because there's nowhere for parents to go to complain. The boards are a joke, and there's no oversight. The Hardy admin has more incentive to collaborate with parents because there are many layers of oversight for DCPS parents to go to. This results in getting the right type of people in leadership roles, which trickles down to better teachers etc. A strong parent group at a DCPS has a lot of power. That's how they were able to turn around Hardy.

THIS. Best post on the thread. Exactly, nowhere to complain and, for most EotP, nowhere else to go within the District you can afford.

[Anonymous]

You people complaining of lack of French or Mandarin native students need to get a grip on reality.

First, there are not that many of them in the city.

Second, the immersion charters cannot give native speakers preference in the lottery. That’s a BIG deal. Even if you have native speakers applying, they don’t get preference to get in.

There are many native Spanish students because of there is a large population in the city. More native speakers applying, higher chance the immersion charters will get some of them.

Yet, DCPS immersion charters are able to give spanish dominant families preference and they always get in.

So it’s easy to complain there is not many native speakers but it’s obvious those who do don’t realize that there is no way for immersion charters to get native speakers due to the the city‘s restrictiveness of charters not being able to get preference.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You people complaining of lack of French or Mandarin native students need to get a grip on reality.

First, there are not that many of them in the city.

Second, the immersion charters cannot give native speakers preference in the lottery. That’s a BIG deal. Even if you have native speakers applying, they don’t get preference to get in.

There are many native Spanish students because of there is a large population in the city. More native speakers applying, higher chance the immersion charters will get some of them.

Yet, DCPS immersion charters are able to give spanish dominant families preference and they always get in.

So it’s easy to complain there is not many native speakers but it’s obvious those who do don’t realize that there is no way for immersion charters to get native speakers due to the the city‘s restrictiveness of charters not being able to get preference.

Typo, meant DCPS immersion schools, not charters

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Come on, it's not just a few disgruntled UMC parents who reject DCI after 5th grade in feeder schools. Most do. I've been dismayed to discovered that more than a dozen 4th graders at our feeder (not YY) bolted for BASIS this fall. You're relying on anecdotal evidence to look at DCI through rose-colored glasses. DCI isn't a bad school. It's just not better than Hardy academically, and it's future isn't as bright.

Basis goes deep in their waitlist. Most families like ours want a typical middle and high school experience for our DC where in addition to academics, there is a larger school and cohort, varied curriculum offerings, sports, outdoor green space, diversity, etc..,

Basis doesn’t cut it for many families. Maybe the families you know but large majority no

OK, but I've observed that the stronger students from our feeder have a strong tendency to peel off for BASIS. Wish it weren't so. DCI feeder parents who bail for BASIS worry that social promotion at DCI sinks the rigor, especially for math. Also, the partial language immersion just isn't serious outside Spanish (can't possibly be w/out native speakers). I've observed that parents of stronger students tend to give up on Mandarin and French after elementary if they can find more rigor for math, science, maybe social studies and English lit. If the Chinese and French were stronger, maybe they'd stay. DCI doesn't seem to care that they go, which gets us nowhere in particular.

Kids can be tracked in math at DCI, so I am not sure where the social promotion, especially for math, comes in. If you are strong in math, you can be placed in a higher class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You people complaining of lack of French or Mandarin native students need to get a grip on reality.

First, there are not that many of them in the city.

Second, the immersion charters cannot give native speakers preference in the lottery. That’s a BIG deal. Even if you have native speakers applying, they don’t get preference to get in.

There are many native Spanish students because of there is a large population in the city. More native speakers applying, higher chance the immersion charters will get some of them.

Yet, DCPS immersion charters are able to give spanish dominant families preference and they always get in.

So it’s easy to complain there is not many native speakers but it’s obvious those who do don’t realize that there is no way for immersion charters to get native speakers due to the the city‘s restrictiveness of charters not being able to get preference.

No, DC immersion charters could give native speakers preference in lotteries, as is done in many states, without interference from the US Dept. of Ed, if DC changed the LEA arrangement for charters. This hasn't happened because no lobby has ever formed to push for it, including push for joint DCPS-Charter hybrid immersion schools that could preference. You might not know that DCI feeder leaders tried to team up with DCPS in establishing DCI, but DCPS and OSSE leaders rebuffed them.

Arguably, no point in running any type of immersion school without native speakers. They're a joke. It's a lousy, gimmicky set up with weak target language acquisition results across the board. The only exceptions are kids who speak the language at home, mainly with pricey hired help, which sucks for the low SES families involved. So why not make DCI a partial Spanish immersion school and be done with it? Pretending endlessly that public immersion French and Chinese are value for money in the District isn't the answer. We should aim higher as a city, a lot higher.

Hardy.

[Anonymous]

Eventually, somebody important is going to cry foul. I call hopeless DCI "advanced" French as target #1. We need tow wait until embarrassing IBD Mandarin and French exam grades have been rolling in for some years. No fooling the graders in Geneva. They review taped IBD language exam interviews.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You people complaining of lack of French or Mandarin native students need to get a grip on reality.

First, there are not that many of them in the city.

Second, the immersion charters cannot give native speakers preference in the lottery. That’s a BIG deal. Even if you have native speakers applying, they don’t get preference to get in.

There are many native Spanish students because of there is a large population in the city. More native speakers applying, higher chance the immersion charters will get some of them.

Yet, DCPS immersion charters are able to give spanish dominant families preference and they always get in.

So it’s easy to complain there is not many native speakers but it’s obvious those who do don’t realize that there is no way for immersion charters to get native speakers due to the the city‘s restrictiveness of charters not being able to get preference.

No, DC immersion charters could give native speakers preference in lotteries, as is done in many states, without interference from the US Dept. of Ed, if DC changed the LEA arrangement for charters. This hasn't happened because no lobby has ever formed to push for it, including push for joint DCPS-Charter hybrid immersion schools that could preference. You might not know that DCI feeder leaders tried to team up with DCPS in establishing DCI, but DCPS and OSSE leaders rebuffed them.

Arguably, no point in running any type of immersion school without native speakers. They're a joke. It's a lousy, gimmicky set up with weak target language acquisition results across the board. The only exceptions are kids who speak the language at home, mainly with pricey hired help, which sucks for the low SES families involved. So why not make DCI a partial Spanish immersion school and be done with it? Pretending endlessly that public immersion French and Chinese are value for money in the District isn't the answer. We should aim higher as a city, a lot higher.

Hardy.

The point is that immersion charters can’t give preference. Period. As you have stated. I don’t care if there is no one lobbying or not.

Also you are imposing expectations of all families that their end goal is fluency. Some families don’t have this end goal. It might be exposure, it might be proficiency. Why don’t you look at the waitlist for Stokes and YY. Plenty of families interested and going in knowing that there are not many native speakers.

[Anonymous]

Haters will be haters. Yes please, all the unhappy Mandarin and French families leave so others of us can get into DCI.

Reality is that unless you are in an immersion charter, you won’t get in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Come on, it's not just a few disgruntled UMC parents who reject DCI after 5th grade in feeder schools. Most do. I've been dismayed to discovered that more than a dozen 4th graders at our feeder (not YY) bolted for BASIS this fall. You're relying on anecdotal evidence to look at DCI through rose-colored glasses. DCI isn't a bad school. It's just not better than Hardy academically, and it's future isn't as bright.

Basis goes deep in their waitlist. Most families like ours want a typical middle and high school experience for our DC where in addition to academics, there is a larger school and cohort, varied curriculum offerings, sports, outdoor green space, diversity, etc..,

Basis doesn’t cut it for many families. Maybe the families you know but large majority no

OK, but I've observed that the stronger students from our feeder have a strong tendency to peel off for BASIS. Wish it weren't so. DCI feeder parents who bail for BASIS worry that social promotion at DCI sinks the rigor, especially for math. Also, the partial language immersion just isn't serious outside Spanish (can't possibly be w/out native speakers). I've observed that parents of stronger students tend to give up on Mandarin and French after elementary if they can find more rigor for math, science, maybe social studies and English lit. If the Chinese and French were stronger, maybe they'd stay. DCI doesn't seem to care that they go, which gets us nowhere in particular.

Some stronger students might fit the hard core, take a zillion AP classes early and whose parents don’t care about anything outside academics, fine.

But if you think that is the only valuable learning experience for your kid, be my guest go to Basis. There are plenty of strong students from feeders who go the DCI route who themselves or their parents want a more rounded middle and high school experience.

DCI opened a middle school and high school just what 7 years ago? In addition, it’s an IB track and diploma which is not easy to set up and do. They take all and diversity of students in race, social background is varied. With this, they have good data with having kids at grade level and above. No other public or charter school at this age has come close in the past to what they have accomplished in this timeline.

I see those as huge accomplishments so far. But of course DCUM wants everything now - the most challenging curriculum, majority native speakers in all language even though population data doesn’t support it, best teachers, best leadership and administration, etc., etc...

There are lots of happy families and kids at DCI. The school has been on an upward trajectory and will continue that path. Families EOTP such as ours will be choosing the DCI route although we can afford to move WOTP. That trend will be here to stay with the overcrowding issues at WOTP schools which affects everything especially academics. Wilson’s honors for all is a disaster and doesn’t help either.

You can hate DCI if you want. You can feel threaten by DCI if you want. But it doesn’t change the fact that many families are choosing it and giving it a chance and have been happy. Is it perfect? Of course not but it’s working for lots of families. How do I know? Because their waitlist barely moves in any grade. People aren’t leaving. They are staying.

Those of us posting abut DCI's deficiencies aren't "threatened by DCI." We had the opportunity to send our children there and chose not to. Some of us are angry that the school is so poorly run when the opportunity was there to have made it a much better school than it is. Some of us had to move or shell out for private if we weren't lucky enough to get into Latin or Basis.

Most students from feeders go to DCI (and stay) due to lack of other options. So many parents told us they applied to Latin and Basis but didn't get in, so now they're at DCI. Not everyone has the money to move to the Deal or Hardy boundary or suburbs, or they don't want to give up their commute or neighborhood. This is why the boosters are so defensive. They get angry at anyone who shines a light on DCI's issues because they don't have any other appealing options.

This must be a troll. If a school isn’t working for a family, they are not going to stay there when there are plenty of other options. Play the lottery again, go private, or move to the burbs. I know some families who do this.

No one is going to prioritize commute or neighborhood over their kids education. Really. Ok maybe 1 in 1000 families who is an outlier.

Unhappy families don’t stay. They leave. Period.

[Anonymous]

Maybe you're right, but it's also true that many time-stretched DC parents are only too happy to delude themselves that the DCI feeder and DCI itself offer an excellent all-around education. I admit that were in that category for years, fairly content until we switched to a rigorous private last year. Admins and the excellent middle school Chinese teacher there sat us down and gave us a harsh straight-up assessment of where were with academics for our kid. He'd always earned excellent grades at YY but, in the eyes of the new school, needed remedial interventions in 5th grade, particularly for writing and speaking Chinese. Fortunately, interventions worked and the kid has caught up. His grades at the new school, where he needs to work much harder than at YY, have gone from poor or mediocre to good or excellent in the last 18 months. Best to stop pretending sooner rather than later.