Why there's no such thing as a Gifted child?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Gifted programs in US are needed because schools material is thought to the middle to lower end so the brightest kids are truly going bananas without adequate challenge. Also most of them just have different style of learning and the regular teachers for the obvious reason can not cater towards them adequately because the rest of the class would suffer. Those kids are like cram machines so they need to be fed constantly and with reasonable challenge attached. If a regular teacher would try to do that it would stretch the teacher beyond reason.
There are not that many truly gifted kids as in... kids who are not high achievers who are pushed by parents to cram cram cram to get good grades. Those are easy to manage, you just throw more things to memorize on them and they will be happily buys. The gifted bunch though
is the ones that has inquisitive minds that is always questioning everything and digging deeper then they were asked and they need to bounce their minds of someone and that someone is a gifted ed teacher. This kind of behavior in regular class would be consider "disruptive".
Whereas in gifted classes or centers it is the baseline behavior.

Calling kids gifted messes up their ego, their parents attitudes and creates some antagonism within the rest of the population.
It is hard to imagine why anyone would pick this term as this term alone seems very divisive and emotionally discriminative but someone had something in mind. It is a word that sets people against each other right of the bet. It is a word that makes people believe that
this is what they want and can get for their child. A spot in a gifted center or class believing that giftedness is achievable.
No it is not, academic advanced kid is achievable, but you can not create giftedness in any child, not even the most academically advanced
because this is not what it is about. High achieving kids are kids who's mind follow the track, like a train, and given stuff to study,
they will stay on those tracks and just push forward. Gifted kid has no tracks,. His mind works in all directions and the learning
style is such so is the teaching style need to be.

It is possible to teach high achieving kids to be more inquisitive and creative. They often benefit from being in class with gifted students. You may not make them into a kid who naturally thinks that way, but working on their problem solving skills is often a better use of their time than having them memorize more and more material.

Not in most magnets and gifted programs. You are creating unimaginative robots.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As usual people are confusing gifted (hate that word) with prodigy. Gifted, now called more appropriately (AAP academic!) is generally IQ 115-130. These kids find the regular schoolwork easy and are often the children of UMC professionals. There are a lot of these kids in DCUM.

Prodigy, IQ 140-200 are exceptional and much rarer. They have different needs but not usually well addressed in a public school because they are very rare.

As usual...no. Gifted is an IQ above 130. Profoundly gifted is over 145. Neither is prodigy. A prodigy is someone who as a young child performs a certain thing at an adult level.

Btw the IQ tests used on kids don’t go up to 200 and haven’t in years. The WISC goes up to about 155 I believe.

A 130 IQ is 2 in 100. Hardly amazing. A 145 IQ is 1 in a 1000. 115 is above average.

So confident! Gifted is often considered above 120. Some schools choose 120 for a cutoff, others choose 130. No, those aren't prodigies.

A school district can use whatever cutoff they want. If you believe the top 10% (120 is 91% percentile) of the population is gifted that’s your opinion. You are entitled that. But the vast majority of psychologists will tell you they use 2 standard deviations o determine that cutoff.

But I’m the pp who thinks IQ tests are just tests. You do well on the test it proves you can do well on that test.

Please just look up the definition of a prodigy for yourself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As usual people are confusing gifted (hate that word) with prodigy. Gifted, now called more appropriately (AAP academic!) is generally IQ 115-130. These kids find the regular schoolwork easy and are often the children of UMC professionals. There are a lot of these kids in DCUM.

Prodigy, IQ 140-200 are exceptional and much rarer. They have different needs but not usually well addressed in a public school because they are very rare.

As usual...no. Gifted is an IQ above 130. Profoundly gifted is over 145. Neither is prodigy. A prodigy is someone who as a young child performs a certain thing at an adult level.

Btw the IQ tests used on kids don’t go up to 200 and haven’t in years. The WISC goes up to about 155 I believe.

A 130 IQ is 2 in 100. Hardly amazing. A 145 IQ is 1 in a 1000. 115 is above average.

2 in 100 is pretty amazing and, statistically speaking, still pretty rare.

Honestly, I think we would all be better off if we figured out a way to accept our kids for who they are and helped them meet their individual challenges. A kid who is bored in school needs to be challenged. That kid could be bored because of a high native intelligence or because they are motivated to learn even if they are "only" above average. That child's individual needs still need to be met. The way you go about meeting those needs might be different.

I don't think the issue is with AAP itself, I think the issue is with how services are delivered throughout the county. Different schools have different programs. Even schools that have the same program administer those programs differently. It makes some parents feel like they need to push a kid into AAP who could very well be better served in a level III program that is well run.

What I’ve noticed:

100 kids

2 have FSIQs above 130
2 more have GAI above 130
2 more have verbal IQs above 130
2 more have quantitative scores above 130
2 more didn’t do well on the WISC but took the SB and scored above 130
2 more scored above 130 on Cogat but nothing else
2 more haven’t scored above 130 but have an LD and have been labeled 2e

So the whole 2/100 becomes 14/100. Maybe more. It somehow ends up being more when you’ve got a bunch of kids taking all these tests. Especially in IMC areas.

[Anonymous]

Ok, let me rephrase my anti gifted opinions posted here. I think you are doing kids that are truly geniuses a disservice by putting them in US magnets. They stifle imagination and teach them to learn by repeating. I also disagree with having 1K gifted kids in one school. There are not that many true geniuses in either MoCo, or NoVa. Tests do not measure real possibility of any kid. Each person is "gifted" in a different way. If you shove them all together, you are doing them a disfavor. Imagination is the crux of any creation, you removed the imagination from kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ok, let me rephrase my anti gifted opinions posted here. I think you are doing kids that are truly geniuses a disservice by putting them in US magnets. They stifle imagination and teach them to learn by repeating. I also disagree with having 1K gifted kids in one school. There are not that many true geniuses in either MoCo, or NoVa. Tests do not measure real possibility of any kid. Each person is "gifted" in a different way. If you shove them all together, you are doing them a disfavor. Imagination is the crux of any creation, you removed the imagination from kids.

The funny thing is that I agree on this, but I have also seen it in a different way.

I have a truly gifted couple of nieces: reading at 3, doing 5th grade math in kindergarten, perfect scores... etc. The parents are in Spotsylvania County and the kids HATE school. When I ask why, they girls mention it's a waste of time, they don't learn anything, the teachers mostly just put them in a corner with books and teach the other kids, while they just... learn on their own.

In comparison, my AAP kids love school. They get pullouts for even more advanced math, they have peers that they talk to, they are never ignored.

This being sad: we never tell our kids that they are gifted and we have never heard teachers use that word in conferences. Because the word is loaded. But our nieces are told that they are and it has essentially made them very resentful of their education.

I know that's a weird anecdote, but here is the thing: true genius isn't like this thing that comes from genetics or breast feeding: it is actually a cumulative thing that has to be nurtured. The magnet programs here give kids that could go on to greatness the social guidance they need to see that they are not that special. And that's why it's important: to see that there are peers in that meet or exceed who you are. And of course, there are always one or two kids that are really truly special: but those kids aren't just being educated in the magnet programs: the parents are doing a lot of heavy lifting at home to encourage their kids to do more.

I guess what I am saying is that the magnets are a double edged sword. But they aren't this evil thing and there are so many families outside of our area that would kill for programs like we have here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe that's why Fairfax has an "advanced academic" program, not "gifted." Surely you acknowledge some kids are academically advanced.
That said, I'm pretty sure Mozart was gifted.

I do not see any need for such a program in public school. I believe they are all just a waste of money. It makes little difference in the long run if one kid or 100 kids are doing "advanced math." What do they gain by doing math ahead of dumb kids? They all end up in the same pot eventually. Perhaps US curriculum is dumbed down?

And that is where you are wrong. Children don't "all end up in the same [s]pot eventually". Different professions require different emphasis.

I bet you if a study is done, the results would show that AAP or not is not a significant variable on who end up better off in the long run. I bet you the variable is negligible AAP vs regular HS class. It would really surprise me if the results of such study came out that 90% of APP kids earn 500K a year, and kids on regular track earn 50K per year on average. I think it all end up the same percentage. Some kids in regular HS end up earning a ton, and some kids from AAP end up being drunks. So, yeah, what evidence do you have that they don't end up "in the similar spot" down the long road of life?

I didn't have AAP as a kid but I was in the advanced math classes in high school. You didn't get into advanced hs math unless you were tracked for advanced math by at least 5th or 6th grade. Most of the kids in advanced math were the same kids in APs and other honors classes.

I don't know a single graduate from my high school class who went on to an academically rigorous profession (e.g., medicine) who wasn't in that cohort of adanced math kids. There are grads who weren't in that cohort who have achieved financial success in other ways, but not via an academically rigorous professional track.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
I have a truly gifted couple of nieces: reading at 3, doing 5th grade math in kindergarten, perfect scores... etc. The parents are in Spotsylvania County and the kids HATE school. When I ask why, they girls mention it's a waste of time, they don't learn anything, the teachers mostly just put them in a corner with books and teach the other kids, while they just... learn on their own.
.

My DS is just like your nieces, and he hates school, views it as a waste of time, doesn't learn anything, and is stuck independently reading or doing Dreambox. This is all in AAP. Not all AAP centers, schools, and teachers in FCPS are created equally. My kid's experience is that the teachers are focusing entirely on the 120-ish kids and doing nothing at all to challenge the kids at the top. AAP math and AAP language arts are still only teaching at 1 year above grade level, which is inadequate for the kids who are more than 2 years above grade level.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I have a truly gifted couple of nieces: reading at 3, doing 5th grade math in kindergarten, perfect scores... etc. The parents are in Spotsylvania County and the kids HATE school. When I ask why, they girls mention it's a waste of time, they don't learn anything, the teachers mostly just put them in a corner with books and teach the other kids, while they just... learn on their own.
.

My DS is just like your nieces, and he hates school, views it as a waste of time, doesn't learn anything, and is stuck independently reading or doing Dreambox. This is all in AAP. Not all AAP centers, schools, and teachers in FCPS are created equally. My kid's experience is that the teachers are focusing entirely on the 120-ish kids and doing nothing at all to challenge the kids at the top. AAP math and AAP language arts are still only teaching at 1 year above grade level, which is inadequate for the kids who are more than 2 years above grade level.

Isn't this just an issue with execution? Not having AAP would just make the teachers have to differentiate across an even wider spectrum of needs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I have a truly gifted couple of nieces: reading at 3, doing 5th grade math in kindergarten, perfect scores... etc. The parents are in Spotsylvania County and the kids HATE school. When I ask why, they girls mention it's a waste of time, they don't learn anything, the teachers mostly just put them in a corner with books and teach the other kids, while they just... learn on their own.
.

My DS is just like your nieces, and he hates school, views it as a waste of time, doesn't learn anything, and is stuck independently reading or doing Dreambox. This is all in AAP. Not all AAP centers, schools, and teachers in FCPS are created equally. My kid's experience is that the teachers are focusing entirely on the 120-ish kids and doing nothing at all to challenge the kids at the top. AAP math and AAP language arts are still only teaching at 1 year above grade level, which is inadequate for the kids who are more than 2 years above grade level.

I was two years ahead, stuck in a classroom with students two years behind. I would have jumped at AAP, if I had had the opportunity, even if we were “ only” covering things one year in advance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe that's why Fairfax has an "advanced academic" program, not "gifted." Surely you acknowledge some kids are academically advanced.
That said, I'm pretty sure Mozart was gifted.

I do not see any need for such a program in public school. I believe they are all just a waste of money. It makes little difference in the long run if one kid or 100 kids are doing "advanced math." What do they gain by doing math ahead of dumb kids? They all end up in the same pot eventually. Perhaps US curriculum is dumbed down?

We can argue over definitions of gifted and who should be in it, but I think it's worthwhile to have such programs.

My school didn't have a gifted program and didn't differentiate until 8th grade, and even then just for math, science, and language. Being in class with kids who have no interest and are disruptive, when one works hard and is reasonably bright, is not fun. I was so, so bored in my English classes, despite the great books we read, because classroom discussion was at such a low level. Even my foreign language classes (French and Latin) were not that interesting because the pace, even in the advanced classes, was too slow. I used to memorize vocabulary at a glance and drank up the grammar. There were a couple other kids who did the same, and then a bunch of others who got Bs so they were put in the advanced class, but they weren't advanced. I was never disruptive and I worked hard and excelled, but I was so excited when I got to college and there were other people there who were interested in learning. And I am by no means a genius, by the way. I was challenged by the work in my high school classes except in languages and English. It was the learning environment that was lacking because of the lack of differentiation.

I don’t understand this at all. I tested “gifted” as a child and got insane verbal scores on every test through the SATs and GMAT. I was bored in all of my language classes (at a bilingual school) because I have a photographic memory for vocabulary and grammar. I just skipped ahead and wrote more interesting papers. But math was perfectly challenging. I don’t understand why every child must be perfectly challenged in every subject. Smart kids aren’t perfect at everything, and learning to deal with the mundane and boring is its own challenge in life.

[Anonymous]

Why can't the kids just skip ahead a grade or two rather than wasting all that money? I just don't get that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The title seems misleading. The article is talking about how being identified as "gifted" in early childhood isn't the best predictor of adult success and a lot of factors besides raw intellience go into sucess.

Exactly. I get the impression that many posting here haven’t even read the article.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why can't the kids just skip ahead a grade or two rather than wasting all that money? I just don't get that.

Gifted kids back in the 80s and 90s usually did skip ahead a grade or two. It's not in vogue right now, so people don't generally skip. My bored-in-AAP DS was offered a grade skip early in 1st grade. We didn't go ahead with the grade skip because he's already young for his grade, but I regret the decision now. Academically, the grade skip would have been a much better fit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The title seems misleading. The article is talking about how being identified as "gifted" in early childhood isn't the best predictor of adult success and a lot of factors besides raw intellience go into sucess.

Exactly. I get the impression that many posting here haven’t even read the article.

I read the article. One of the reasons I'm skeptical of AAP is that intelligence seems to be much more fluid than people think, and the tests are very imperfect. I'm not convinced that the semi-permanence of the gifted label and services given to children based on their level in 2nd grade is appropriate. Many of those kids will peak early and be somewhat average by high school, while other kids will be late bloomers and flourish later in their careers. I've met so many people who talked about being identified as highly gifted as 6 or 7 year olds, but seemed pretty average as adults. Some of them were in college classes with me, and while they might claim a 160+ IQ measured in their early childhoods, they did not learn particularly quickly or well as adult college students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why can't the kids just skip ahead a grade or two rather than wasting all that money? I just don't get that.

Because after doing that while back it came with very bad situation where kids were struggling to fit into groups out of their age. I personally know of one who skipped a grade, it didn't go well for her as well.