Few days to decide: U of Virginia or U of Chicago?

[Anonymous]

These give and takes on whose graduates are happier are usually without basis. Look at the facts. I think graduation rates and alumni giving and graduation rates are indicative of satisfaction. Both are in USNews.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does your DC want a grind it out and feel really smart but overworked and stressed kind of place? Or a place where they are really busy but having fun? That's the choice, from a parent who has been there. Which campus had kids who were smiling during the tour?

Doesn’t take much intelligence to regurgitate these tired old stereotypes.

Everyone on this board seems to want to reduce large complex institutions with diverse student bodies to a simple stereotype that fits their narrative.

[Anonymous]

Hmm the article from the Chicago Dean about the school’s grading system being relentless says a lot to me ...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I visited Chicago recently with DD, a HS junior, and we had dinner with my nephew, who's a law student there, and some of his friends. They all love the law school, but the one student who had also done UofC undergrad warned DD against it. She said it was a fantastic education, but a miserable existence, largely due to the quarter system. During our tour the next day, I picked up a copy of the student newspaper, which included an interview with the Dean of the College, who called the quarter system "relentless". He is heading up a commission to consider switching to a semester system.

My DC (current 3rd yr) agrees. I’m impressed with the faculty (inc mentorship), underwhelmed by the Core, and annoyed by the schedule (not only the pace but its out-of-sync-ness with the rest of Am higher education which means, for example, that summer internships often start before UChicago gets out.)

[Anonymous]

Chicago has a 99% freshman retention rate. That is higher than all schools but Yale. If it was such a horrible place to attend, I don't think that would be the case.

[Anonymous]

Lots of peer institutions don’t allow transfers until junior year. If you’re miserable at UChicago after two years, it may be difficult to transfer laterally because of GPA. And, by the end of year 2, you may feel that, having completed the Core, you might as well just soldier on and at least get credit for making it through a notoriously tough school. Also, the nature of “relentless” is that it wears on you. First year may be fine (or you may think it’s just ordinary adjustment to college and it’ll get better 2nd year).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think there is any question. Univ of Chicago is now $76,000 a year. UVA instate's tuition is $14,710. (our DS lives off campus so doesn't have dorm, food service, health service fees). He has no car so only expenses are shared apartment and food. Our total outlay was probably $22K this year. Even using UVA's cost calculator for a student living on campus at $32,000, you are still looking at a difference of $44K a year which is in after-tax dollars. We would have to make $70K to pay the difference. Multiply that by four or five years and you have enough to pay for grad school, which is exactly what we are doing. Go to UVA and bank the difference, if you have it. If you don't have it, you should be going to UVA anyhow. DS has had a wonderful four years. Chicago is full of smart kids but it is cold and dark and fun indeed goes there to die.

No, absolutely not. Nobody should pay to go to grad school (professional school like law and medicine are the exception).

Grad students should be offered a teaching or research assistantship which comes with tuition waiver. If you are paying for it, they don't really want you and don't think you will succeed, and they are probably right.

Wrong. Many grad schools do require payment and lots of it. First, DS is going into an M.P.P. (Master's of public policy) program at UVA's Batten School of Public Policy and Leadership. Guess what? In-state perks for all intents and purposes stop at graduation.[b] DS's tuition for the Batten School will jump from current tuition of $14,000 a year to over $43,000 a year. Second, MBA programs also cost a lot of money. Third, after the Master's program, DS wants to attend law school. The tuition for my law school is now almost $100K a year x 3 years. I am VERY grateful that DS had the wisdom to pick UVA over other privates where since we were then looking at a delta of more than $43,000 x 4 years. We've been able to bank the money that would have been spent at an OOS or private so can now provide for DS at the Master's and Professional school levels.

Not necessarily. UVA Graduate assistants get full in-state tuition and fees remission, as well as health insurance subsidy if they make a minimum of $5000/year -- and it's hard not to. Batten is affiliated with GA and RA positions, and in fact gives out yearly awards for good work in assistantships of various kinds.

Either you are saying "DS is going into" Batten without yet being at the stage of applying -- kind of jumping the gun there, no? -- or he isn't being offered a standard graduate student package. Which is fine, if that is what you want, I suppose.

I take it he did not get into the combined MPP/JD program, so he has to do these separately. As I said, professional schools such as law and medicine are a different category.

Aid Eligibility

Qualified graduate assistantships include tuition remission and the health insurance subsidy. They may also include tuition adjustment. A graduate assistantship is ‘qualified’ if it is at least half of a full assistantship (a quarter-time appointment, roughly equivalent to 10 hours per week).

Tuition Remission – The in-state tuition portion and all required fees (comprehensive fees, activity fees and, where applicable, the international student fee) paid on behalf of a student serving in a qualified graduate assistantship.

Tuition Adjustment – The amount of tuition above in-state tuition paid on behalf of an out-of-state student serving in a qualified graduate assistantship.

Health Insurance Subsidy – A subsidy funded centrally by the University and provided on behalf of a qualified graduate student. A qualified graduate student must be offered the health insurance subsidy if he or she earns at least $5,000 in wages as a GTA or GRA over the course of the fiscal year.

https://sfs.virginia.edu/grad/assistantships

Wrong on all fronts. DS is accepted via the accelerated Master's program so will finish both undergrad and grad. in five years, not six. Tuition for the fourth/combined year of undergrad and starting at Batten is at the in-state rate. Then it jumps for the fifth year. Yes, Batten has T.A. positions but you have to get them in order to take advantage of them. Not everyone gets to be a T.A. right? Students in the accelerated program are coming in from their third year at UVA so don't qualify for T.A. positions. Yes, he plans to apply sometime next year for a T.A. position the fifth year but who knows? Those often go to international students or others who have demonstrated financial nees. Then he hopes to study aboard and maybe go to law schools. Most law schools now want to see a two year break before applying.

[Anonymous]

I know Chicago graduates who are successful and who are not. Same for UVA. Plenty of bright kids go to top colleges and end up in unremarkable places if we are talking about incomes. Plenty of them in academia and non profits. In other words going to Chicago is not a guarantee you're headed for a six figure income. At all.

I went to Ivies for undergrad and graduate and there were plenty of bright kids from state universities and no name colleges in my prestigious graduate program. If you can easily afford it, sure, go to Chicago. If money is a factor, go to UVA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think there is any question. Univ of Chicago is now $76,000 a year. UVA instate's tuition is $14,710. (our DS lives off campus so doesn't have dorm, food service, health service fees). He has no car so only expenses are shared apartment and food. Our total outlay was probably $22K this year. Even using UVA's cost calculator for a student living on campus at $32,000, you are still looking at a difference of $44K a year which is in after-tax dollars. We would have to make $70K to pay the difference. Multiply that by four or five years and you have enough to pay for grad school, which is exactly what we are doing. Go to UVA and bank the difference, if you have it. If you don't have it, you should be going to UVA anyhow. DS has had a wonderful four years. Chicago is full of smart kids but it is cold and dark and fun indeed goes there to die.

No, absolutely not. Nobody should pay to go to grad school (professional school like law and medicine are the exception).

Grad students should be offered a teaching or research assistantship which comes with tuition waiver. If you are paying for it, they don't really want you and don't think you will succeed, and they are probably right.

Wrong. Many grad schools do require payment and lots of it. First, DS is going into an M.P.P. (Master's of public policy) program at UVA's Batten School of Public Policy and Leadership. Guess what? In-state perks for all intents and purposes stop at graduation.[b] DS's tuition for the Batten School will jump from current tuition of $14,000 a year to over $43,000 a year. Second, MBA programs also cost a lot of money. Third, after the Master's program, DS wants to attend law school. The tuition for my law school is now almost $100K a year x 3 years. I am VERY grateful that DS had the wisdom to pick UVA over other privates where since we were then looking at a delta of more than $43,000 x 4 years. We've been able to bank the money that would have been spent at an OOS or private so can now provide for DS at the Master's and Professional school levels.

Not necessarily. UVA Graduate assistants get full in-state tuition and fees remission, as well as health insurance subsidy if they make a minimum of $5000/year -- and it's hard not to. Batten is affiliated with GA and RA positions, and in fact gives out yearly awards for good work in assistantships of various kinds.

Either you are saying "DS is going into" Batten without yet being at the stage of applying -- kind of jumping the gun there, no? -- or he isn't being offered a standard graduate student package. Which is fine, if that is what you want, I suppose.

I take it he did not get into the combined MPP/JD program, so he has to do these separately. As I said, professional schools such as law and medicine are a different category.

Aid Eligibility

Qualified graduate assistantships include tuition remission and the health insurance subsidy. They may also include tuition adjustment. A graduate assistantship is ‘qualified’ if it is at least half of a full assistantship (a quarter-time appointment, roughly equivalent to 10 hours per week).

Tuition Remission – The in-state tuition portion and all required fees (comprehensive fees, activity fees and, where applicable, the international student fee) paid on behalf of a student serving in a qualified graduate assistantship.

Tuition Adjustment – The amount of tuition above in-state tuition paid on behalf of an out-of-state student serving in a qualified graduate assistantship.

Health Insurance Subsidy – A subsidy funded centrally by the University and provided on behalf of a qualified graduate student. A qualified graduate student must be offered the health insurance subsidy if he or she earns at least $5,000 in wages as a GTA or GRA over the course of the fiscal year.

https://sfs.virginia.edu/grad/assistantships

Wrong on all fronts. DS is accepted via the accelerated Master's program so will finish both undergrad and grad. in five years, not six. Tuition for the fourth/combined year of undergrad and starting at Batten is at the in-state rate. Then it jumps for the fifth year. Yes, Batten has T.A. positions but you have to get them in order to take advantage of them. Not everyone gets to be a T.A. right? Students in the accelerated program are coming in from their third year at UVA so don't qualify for T.A. positions. Yes, he plans to apply sometime next year for a T.A. position the fifth year but who knows? Those often go to international students or others who have demonstrated financial nees. Then he hopes to study aboard and maybe go to law schools. Most law schools now want to see a two year break before applying.

Well, then you obviously should have read my first post more carefully. I will quote for your convenience: "(professional school[s] like law and medicine are the exception)." His program is primarily in law, with an accelerated MBA (that is not the typical master's degree program). That isn't just "going to graduate school" -- that is finished an alternative undergrad/masters accelerated degree and then going into a professional school, which is -- as I said -- the exception to the rule that you shouldn't pay for graduate level training.

I really hope your DS is better at this reading thing than you are.

Can you not read?

[Anonymous]

In fairness to PP, she may not have assumed an
MPP was a professional degree like law or medicine and that by “graduate school” you meant PhD programs. It’s a familiar distinction to academics (aka people with PhDs), but I wouldn’t assume that most people would think an MPP was more like an MD/JD than a PhD in Poli Sci (or an MA in
Poli Sci acquired en route to a PhD.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I visited Chicago recently with DD, a HS junior, and we had dinner with my nephew, who's a law student there, and some of his friends. They all love the law school, but the one student who had also done UofC undergrad warned DD against it. She said it was a fantastic education, but a miserable existence, largely due to the quarter system. During our tour the next day, I picked up a copy of the student newspaper, which included an interview with the Dean of the College, who called the quarter system "relentless". He is heading up a commission to consider switching to a semester system.

One of my daughter’s is at WPI and loves the quarter system. The kids are extremely social and involved in many things. But they have a longer drawn out, but more intense system. Their timing doesn’t allow decent internships either. And the kids are intense studious kids at U of C. Very similar to JHU and CMU. Great education, but no happiness unless you are happy always being competitive or are just a studious introvert.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I visited Chicago recently with DD, a HS junior, and we had dinner with my nephew, who's a law student there, and some of his friends. They all love the law school, but the one student who had also done UofC undergrad warned DD against it. She said it was a fantastic education, but a miserable existence, largely due to the quarter system. During our tour the next day, I picked up a copy of the student newspaper, which included an interview with the Dean of the College, who called the quarter system "relentless". He is heading up a commission to consider switching to a semester system.

One of my daughter’s is at WPI and loves the quarter system. The kids are extremely social and involved in many things. But U of C has a longer drawn out, and more intense system. Their timing doesn’t allow decent internships either. And the kids are intense studious kids at U of C. Very similar to JHU and CMU. Great education, but no happiness unless you are happy always being competitive or are just a studious introvert.

Fixed my post above

[Anonymous]

But if it's part of an accelerated combined degree program, there is an increased class load (thus "accelerated") -- there isn't time for assistantship.

You can't say that standard advice for graduate school doesn't apply to anyone because it doesn't apply to a special program -- not when people are discussing standard graduate school. That's just silly.

[Anonymous]

I liked being on the quarter system at Stanford because it allowed you to take a greater variety of courses. The velocity of the coursework also kept classes interesting and quarters allowed you to move your credit hours around more easily so that you could take a light quarter when you have extracurriculars or other demands.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think there is any question. Univ of Chicago is now $76,000 a year. UVA instate's tuition is $14,710. (our DS lives off campus so doesn't have dorm, food service, health service fees). He has no car so only expenses are shared apartment and food. Our total outlay was probably $22K this year. Even using UVA's cost calculator for a student living on campus at $32,000, you are still looking at a difference of $44K a year which is in after-tax dollars. We would have to make $70K to pay the difference. Multiply that by four or five years and you have enough to pay for grad school, which is exactly what we are doing. Go to UVA and bank the difference, if you have it. If you don't have it, you should be going to UVA anyhow. DS has had a wonderful four years. Chicago is full of smart kids but it is cold and dark and fun indeed goes there to die.

No, absolutely not. Nobody should pay to go to grad school (professional school like law and medicine are the exception).

Grad students should be offered a teaching or research assistantship which comes with tuition waiver. If you are paying for it, they don't really want you and don't think you will succeed, and they are probably right.

Wrong. Many grad schools do require payment and lots of it. First, DS is going into an M.P.P. (Master's of public policy) program at UVA's Batten School of Public Policy and Leadership. Guess what? In-state perks for all intents and purposes stop at graduation.[b] DS's tuition for the Batten School will jump from current tuition of $14,000 a year to over $43,000 a year. Second, MBA programs also cost a lot of money. Third, after the Master's program, DS wants to attend law school. The tuition for my law school is now almost $100K a year x 3 years. I am VERY grateful that DS had the wisdom to pick UVA over other privates where since we were then looking at a delta of more than $43,000 x 4 years. We've been able to bank the money that would have been spent at an OOS or private so can now provide for DS at the Master's and Professional school levels.

Not necessarily. UVA Graduate assistants get full in-state tuition and fees remission, as well as health insurance subsidy if they make a minimum of $5000/year -- and it's hard not to. Batten is affiliated with GA and RA positions, and in fact gives out yearly awards for good work in assistantships of various kinds.

Either you are saying "DS is going into" Batten without yet being at the stage of applying -- kind of jumping the gun there, no? -- or he isn't being offered a standard graduate student package. Which is fine, if that is what you want, I suppose.

I take it he did not get into the combined MPP/JD program, so he has to do these separately. As I said, professional schools such as law and medicine are a different category.

Aid Eligibility

Qualified graduate assistantships include tuition remission and the health insurance subsidy. They may also include tuition adjustment. A graduate assistantship is ‘qualified’ if it is at least half of a full assistantship (a quarter-time appointment, roughly equivalent to 10 hours per week).

Tuition Remission – The in-state tuition portion and all required fees (comprehensive fees, activity fees and, where applicable, the international student fee) paid on behalf of a student serving in a qualified graduate assistantship.

Tuition Adjustment – The amount of tuition above in-state tuition paid on behalf of an out-of-state student serving in a qualified graduate assistantship.

Health Insurance Subsidy – A subsidy funded centrally by the University and provided on behalf of a qualified graduate student. A qualified graduate student must be offered the health insurance subsidy if he or she earns at least $5,000 in wages as a GTA or GRA over the course of the fiscal year.

https://sfs.virginia.edu/grad/assistantships

Wrong on all fronts. DS is accepted via the accelerated Master's program so will finish both undergrad and grad. in five years, not six. Tuition for the fourth/combined year of undergrad and starting at Batten is at the in-state rate. Then it jumps for the fifth year. Yes, Batten has T.A. positions but you have to get them in order to take advantage of them. Not everyone gets to be a T.A. right? Students in the accelerated program are coming in from their third year at UVA so don't qualify for T.A. positions. Yes, he plans to apply sometime next year for a T.A. position the fifth year but who knows? Those often go to international students or others who have demonstrated financial nees. Then he hopes to study aboard and maybe go to law schools. Most law schools now want to see a two year break before applying.

Sounds like he plans to put off getting gainfully employed for as long as possible on your dime.