DA rosters: internal promotion or new blood?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My only prior post in this thread was the one from last night that listed the US players in the top 5 leagues in Europe, and I appreciate that it was off topic. I was just trying to respond to the posters that were going back and forth about whether DA has achieved one of its primary purposes of developing players for a professional career.

To finish a point before the thread gets back to the topic of whether DA rosters should internally promote or bring in outside talent ( ), I think it is still a little early to judge DA's success in this area. I get the good points made my some poster(s) about the fact that perhaps a higher percentage of the 2008 US players were significant contributors to their teams (e.g., Dempsey, Friedel, Howard, Keller, McBride, Cherundolo, etc.), compared to the current US players in Europe that spent some developmental years with DA teams. However, to be fair to the other poster(s) defending DA's development, DA has only been around for 10 years or so (for the boys). As a result, the boys that have had an opportunity to play DA beginning in their early years (e.g., U13, U14) are just now turning 22-23 years old. And anyone who follows the top 5 leagues in Europe knows how hard it is for a player at that young age to get significant first team minutes. That is a large reason why I tried to show all of the younger players (18-22 years old) with EPL and Bundesliga teams, even if they are playing out on loan or with the reserve teams.

Because so many of these US players are so young, the jury is still out on whether they will ever become significant contributors for their teams (e.g., Sargent, Weah, etc.). With that said, it is a HUGE feather in DA's cap that two of their players, Pulisic and McKennie (both of whom spent 7 years with DA clubs, PA Classics and FC Dallas, respectively), have already played over 21 Champions League games so far in their young careers. Not only have Pulisic and McKennie played significant roles for their teams, but they have also scored game winning goals, and assisted others, in these Champions League games. And they are only 20 years old. As best my memory serves, Pulisic and McKennie have already played more Champions League games than Dempsey, Friedel, Howard, Keller, McBride, Cherundolo, Donovan, etc. played in their entire careers while playing in top 5 leagues in Europe. We'll see if those players, and the other young, former DA players in the EPL and Bundesliga, reach their full potential and become significant contributors for several years for their respective clubs, but the early returns are promising compared to prior generations of US players overseas.

I don't disagree that jury is still out tp a degree on the young guys, like Pulisic and McKinnie, but in Europe top players start breaking into the first team at the age 16-18. Mbappe, Ronaldo, Neymar, Modric made his debut for Monaco at the age of 17. Messi got his first start for Barcelona at 16. By the time they turn 22-23 years old they are seasoned pros. I think Pulisic and McKinnie will turn out to be solid pros, contributors on the Champion's league teams, but they won't really be among top ten players in the world, which is fine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My only prior post in this thread was the one from last night that listed the US players in the top 5 leagues in Europe, and I appreciate that it was off topic. I was just trying to respond to the posters that were going back and forth about whether DA has achieved one of its primary purposes of developing players for a professional career.

To finish a point before the thread gets back to the topic of whether DA rosters should internally promote or bring in outside talent ( ), I think it is still a little early to judge DA's success in this area. I get the good points made my some poster(s) about the fact that perhaps a higher percentage of the 2008 US players were significant contributors to their teams (e.g., Dempsey, Friedel, Howard, Keller, McBride, Cherundolo, etc.), compared to the current US players in Europe that spent some developmental years with DA teams. However, to be fair to the other poster(s) defending DA's development, DA has only been around for 10 years or so (for the boys). As a result, the boys that have had an opportunity to play DA beginning in their early years (e.g., U13, U14) are just now turning 22-23 years old. And anyone who follows the top 5 leagues in Europe knows how hard it is for a player at that young age to get significant first team minutes. That is a large reason why I tried to show all of the younger players (18-22 years old) with EPL and Bundesliga teams, even if they are playing out on loan or with the reserve teams.

Because so many of these US players are so young, the jury is still out on whether they will ever become significant contributors for their teams (e.g., Sargent, Weah, etc.). With that said, it is a HUGE feather in DA's cap that two of their players, Pulisic and McKennie (both of whom spent 7 years with DA clubs, PA Classics and FC Dallas, respectively), have already played over 21 Champions League games so far in their young careers. Not only have Pulisic and McKennie played significant roles for their teams, but they have also scored game winning goals, and assisted others, in these Champions League games. And they are only 20 years old. As best my memory serves, Pulisic and McKennie have already played more Champions League games than Dempsey, Friedel, Howard, Keller, McBride, Cherundolo, Donovan, etc. played in their entire careers while playing in top 5 leagues in Europe. We'll see if those players, and the other young, former DA players in the EPL and Bundesliga, reach their full potential and become significant contributors for several years for their respective clubs, but the early returns are promising compared to prior generations of US players overseas.

I don't disagree that jury is still out tp a degree on the young guys, like Pulisic and McKinnie, but in Europe top players start breaking into the first team at the age 16-18. Mbappe, Ronaldo, Neymar, Modric made his debut for Monaco at the age of 17. Messi got his first start for Barcelona at 16. By the time they turn 22-23 years old they are seasoned pros. I think Pulisic and McKinnie will turn out to be solid pros, contributors on the Champion's league teams, but they won't really be among top ten players in the world, which is fine.

First, I generally agree with everything you say. Second, one has to keep in mind that US players generally cannot play in Europe until they are 18 (it is a FIFA rule). This is why Josh Sargent (another former DA player) was training with Bremen in the last few months as a 17 year old, but could not join the team until he turned 18. Same was true for Alex Mendez (another former DA player who moved to Bundesliga at the end of his 17th year and then joined Freiburg once he turned 18). I could go on with other examples, but you get the point. Pulisic was an exception because he was able to get an EU passport (due to his grandfather) at 16. As a reminder, Pulisic made his Bundesliga debut as a 16 year old, and later became both the youngest non-German to score a Bundesliga goal (as well as the youngest to ever score multiple goals in the Bundesliga). As a result, it is not fair to say that US players are not breaking into teams in the top 5 leagues as 16 and 17 year olds, when they are prohibited from doing so by FIFA rules (unless they are able to get EU passports, like Pulisic).

Lastly, I feel like your post above is moving the goalposts from "is DA developing US players to become pros?" to "is DA developing US players to become top 10 players in the world?". To state the obvious, there can only be 10 players in the "top 10 in the world," and no country is producing a disproportionate share of "top 10" players relative to other countries. I don't think anyone should be expecting DA (or any US soccer leagues) to be developing multiple top 10 players in the world. To level set, DA was formed, in part, to better train players to be able to go pro (instead of the old route of going to college to develop before going pro). You are beginning to see this success with the number of young US players who are forgoing the college opportunity, and who are instead going pro with, primarily, EPL and Bundesliga teams (e.g., McKennie was going to go to UVa before he decided to go to Schalke).

Again, it is still early, and we will have to see if more and more top US teen players continue to head overseas to teams in the top 5 leagues, just as we will have to see whether the young players currently there continue in their development and reach their full potential. However, I think it is clear that DA is showing some early successes, by developing dozens of young players who became good enough under their DA teams (and the youth teams that fed into those DA teams) to catch the eye of a European professional clubs. That is great, and I hope it will continue.

[Anonymous]

Give it a rest.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My only prior post in this thread was the one from last night that listed the US players in the top 5 leagues in Europe, and I appreciate that it was off topic. I was just trying to respond to the posters that were going back and forth about whether DA has achieved one of its primary purposes of developing players for a professional career.

To finish a point before the thread gets back to the topic of whether DA rosters should internally promote or bring in outside talent ( ), I think it is still a little early to judge DA's success in this area. I get the good points made my some poster(s) about the fact that perhaps a higher percentage of the 2008 US players were significant contributors to their teams (e.g., Dempsey, Friedel, Howard, Keller, McBride, Cherundolo, etc.), compared to the current US players in Europe that spent some developmental years with DA teams. However, to be fair to the other poster(s) defending DA's development, DA has only been around for 10 years or so (for the boys). As a result, the boys that have had an opportunity to play DA beginning in their early years (e.g., U13, U14) are just now turning 22-23 years old. And anyone who follows the top 5 leagues in Europe knows how hard it is for a player at that young age to get significant first team minutes. That is a large reason why I tried to show all of the younger players (18-22 years old) with EPL and Bundesliga teams, even if they are playing out on loan or with the reserve teams.

Because so many of these US players are so young, the jury is still out on whether they will ever become significant contributors for their teams (e.g., Sargent, Weah, etc.). With that said, it is a HUGE feather in DA's cap that two of their players, Pulisic and McKennie (both of whom spent 7 years with DA clubs, PA Classics and FC Dallas, respectively), have already played over 21 Champions League games so far in their young careers. Not only have Pulisic and McKennie played significant roles for their teams, but they have also scored game winning goals, and assisted others, in these Champions League games. And they are only 20 years old. As best my memory serves, Pulisic and McKennie have already played more Champions League games than Dempsey, Friedel, Howard, Keller, McBride, Cherundolo, Donovan, etc. played in their entire careers while playing in top 5 leagues in Europe. We'll see if those players, and the other young, former DA players in the EPL and Bundesliga, reach their full potential and become significant contributors for several years for their respective clubs, but the early returns are promising compared to prior generations of US players overseas.

I don't disagree that jury is still out tp a degree on the young guys, like Pulisic and McKinnie, but in Europe top players start breaking into the first team at the age 16-18. Mbappe, Ronaldo, Neymar, Modric made his debut for Monaco at the age of 17. Messi got his first start for Barcelona at 16. By the time they turn 22-23 years old they are seasoned pros. I think Pulisic and McKinnie will turn out to be solid pros, contributors on the Champion's league teams, but they won't really be among top ten players in the world, which is fine.

First, I generally agree with everything you say. Second, one has to keep in mind that US players generally cannot play in Europe until they are 18 (it is a FIFA rule). This is why Josh Sargent (another former DA player) was training with Bremen in the last few months as a 17 year old, but could not join the team until he turned 18. Same was true for Alex Mendez (another former DA player who moved to Bundesliga at the end of his 17th year and then joined Freiburg once he turned 18). I could go on with other examples, but you get the point. Pulisic was an exception because he was able to get an EU passport (due to his grandfather) at 16. As a reminder, Pulisic made his Bundesliga debut as a 16 year old, and later became both the youngest non-German to score a Bundesliga goal (as well as the youngest to ever score multiple goals in the Bundesliga). As a result, it is not fair to say that US players are not breaking into teams in the top 5 leagues as 16 and 17 year olds, when they are prohibited from doing so by FIFA rules (unless they are able to get EU passports, like Pulisic).

Lastly, I feel like your post above is moving the goalposts from "is DA developing US players to become pros?" to "is DA developing US players to become top 10 players in the world?". To state the obvious, there can only be 10 players in the "top 10 in the world," and no country is producing a disproportionate share of "top 10" players relative to other countries. I don't think anyone should be expecting DA (or any US soccer leagues) to be developing multiple top 10 players in the world. To level set, DA was formed, in part, to better train players to be able to go pro (instead of the old route of going to college to develop before going pro). You are beginning to see this success with the number of young US players who are forgoing the college opportunity, and who are instead going pro with, primarily, EPL and Bundesliga teams (e.g., McKennie was going to go to UVa before he decided to go to Schalke).

Again, it is still early, and we will have to see if more and more top US teen players continue to head overseas to teams in the top 5 leagues, just as we will have to see whether the young players currently there continue in their development and reach their full potential. However, I think it is clear that DA is showing some early successes, by developing dozens of young players who became good enough under their DA teams (and the youth teams that fed into those DA teams) to catch the eye of a European professional clubs. That is great, and I hope it will continue.

Very well said.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My only prior post in this thread was the one from last night that listed the US players in the top 5 leagues in Europe, and I appreciate that it was off topic. I was just trying to respond to the posters that were going back and forth about whether DA has achieved one of its primary purposes of developing players for a professional career.

To finish a point before the thread gets back to the topic of whether DA rosters should internally promote or bring in outside talent ( ), I think it is still a little early to judge DA's success in this area. I get the good points made my some poster(s) about the fact that perhaps a higher percentage of the 2008 US players were significant contributors to their teams (e.g., Dempsey, Friedel, Howard, Keller, McBride, Cherundolo, etc.), compared to the current US players in Europe that spent some developmental years with DA teams. However, to be fair to the other poster(s) defending DA's development, DA has only been around for 10 years or so (for the boys). As a result, the boys that have had an opportunity to play DA beginning in their early years (e.g., U13, U14) are just now turning 22-23 years old. And anyone who follows the top 5 leagues in Europe knows how hard it is for a player at that young age to get significant first team minutes. That is a large reason why I tried to show all of the younger players (18-22 years old) with EPL and Bundesliga teams, even if they are playing out on loan or with the reserve teams.

Because so many of these US players are so young, the jury is still out on whether they will ever become significant contributors for their teams (e.g., Sargent, Weah, etc.). With that said, it is a HUGE feather in DA's cap that two of their players, Pulisic and McKennie (both of whom spent 7 years with DA clubs, PA Classics and FC Dallas, respectively), have already played over 21 Champions League games so far in their young careers. Not only have Pulisic and McKennie played significant roles for their teams, but they have also scored game winning goals, and assisted others, in these Champions League games. And they are only 20 years old. As best my memory serves, Pulisic and McKennie have already played more Champions League games than Dempsey, Friedel, Howard, Keller, McBride, Cherundolo, Donovan, etc. played in their entire careers while playing in top 5 leagues in Europe. We'll see if those players, and the other young, former DA players in the EPL and Bundesliga, reach their full potential and become significant contributors for several years for their respective clubs, but the early returns are promising compared to prior generations of US players overseas.

I don't disagree that jury is still out tp a degree on the young guys, like Pulisic and McKinnie, but in Europe top players start breaking into the first team at the age 16-18. Mbappe, Ronaldo, Neymar, Modric made his debut for Monaco at the age of 17. Messi got his first start for Barcelona at 16. By the time they turn 22-23 years old they are seasoned pros. I think Pulisic and McKinnie will turn out to be solid pros, contributors on the Champion's league teams, but they won't really be among top ten players in the world, which is fine.

First, I generally agree with everything you say. Second, one has to keep in mind that US players generally cannot play in Europe until they are 18 (it is a FIFA rule). This is why Josh Sargent (another former DA player) was training with Bremen in the last few months as a 17 year old, but could not join the team until he turned 18. Same was true for Alex Mendez (another former DA player who moved to Bundesliga at the end of his 17th year and then joined Freiburg once he turned 18). I could go on with other examples, but you get the point. Pulisic was an exception because he was able to get an EU passport (due to his grandfather) at 16. As a reminder, Pulisic made his Bundesliga debut as a 16 year old, and later became both the youngest non-German to score a Bundesliga goal (as well as the youngest to ever score multiple goals in the Bundesliga). As a result, it is not fair to say that US players are not breaking into teams in the top 5 leagues as 16 and 17 year olds, when they are prohibited from doing so by FIFA rules (unless they are able to get EU passports, like Pulisic).

Lastly, I feel like your post above is moving the goalposts from "is DA developing US players to become pros?" to "is DA developing US players to become top 10 players in the world?". To state the obvious, there can only be 10 players in the "top 10 in the world," and no country is producing a disproportionate share of "top 10" players relative to other countries. I don't think anyone should be expecting DA (or any US soccer leagues) to be developing multiple top 10 players in the world. To level set, DA was formed, in part, to better train players to be able to go pro (instead of the old route of going to college to develop before going pro). You are beginning to see this success with the number of young US players who are forgoing the college opportunity, and who are instead going pro with, primarily, EPL and Bundesliga teams (e.g., McKennie was going to go to UVa before he decided to go to Schalke).

Again, it is still early, and we will have to see if more and more top US teen players continue to head overseas to teams in the top 5 leagues, just as we will have to see whether the young players currently there continue in their development and reach their full potential. However, I think it is clear that DA is showing some early successes, by developing dozens of young players who became good enough under their DA teams (and the youth teams that fed into those DA teams) to catch the eye of a European professional clubs. That is great, and I hope it will continue.

I did not intend to move the goalposts, but we are really talking about a handful of players. The real question is whether they sign with European clubs as pros because of DA or despite of DA? It is true that our players are at a big disadvantage because they cannot sign in Europe until they are 18, but they also have an advantage because their new clubs do not have to pay training compensation and solidarity fees. An opportunity to sign a player for free is very attractive to professional clubs. I think the biggest problem that is that our players don't get a comparable training/competitive environment as their South American and European counterparts during the critical development stage (16-18 years old). One MLS academy coach said that his team does not get quality competition on regular basis within DA, while youth academies abroad play quality competitive games every week.

[Anonymous]

Rank and yank, Jack Welch style

[Anonymous]

RantingSoccerDad wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I did not intend to move the goalposts, but we are really talking about a handful of players. The real question is whether they sign with European clubs as pros because of DA or despite of DA? It is true that our players are at a big disadvantage because they cannot sign in Europe until they are 18, but they also have an advantage because their new clubs do not have to pay training compensation and solidarity fees. An opportunity to sign a player for free is very attractive to professional clubs. I think the biggest problem that is that our players don't get a comparable training/competitive environment as their South American and European counterparts during the critical development stage (16-18 years old). One MLS academy coach said that his team does not get quality competition on regular basis within DA, while youth academies abroad play quality competitive games every week.

I wasn't able to find results or standings below U19, where teams to be appropriately challenged (Barcelona isn't even in first place in its group), but I've heard they don't really have parity at younger ages.

But the difficulty in finding such results or standings kind of illustrates a point.

This is purely anecdotal, but when I spoke to one of academy coaches from a top division club in Europe, he said that well-run smaller professional clubs academies are generally competitive against big clubs until the age of 16. After 16, big clubs can buy top players from smaller clubs and start separating themselves from the rest of the pack.