No idea that professors made this much money

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Professors in the sciences/law/business at private universities make very high salaries.

--married to one

Not all of them. At many schools they are required to fully support themselves with grants, and good luck getting those these days. There are a few rockstars, sure, but professors in the science rarely earn the big bucks (unless they're doing a lot of consulting).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I used to work at a DC university in public health about three years ago. They hired assistant profs at $85-$95 and most with tenure weren't earning much above $115k. A few rockstars out of many earned closer to $200k. The state research university I worked at in the midwest had tenured people at the END of their careers earning $120k max (most were in the $80k range).

You have to really love the subject matter (or like not having to dress a particular way), because you'll never be rich being a professor.

I should add that the state research university I worked/studied at was in the economics department. So the idea that fresh new grads come out at $125-175k as assistant professors is laughable. The people I went to grad school with now have tenure and teach at middling public universities. They earn about $100k.

Picking a state university I have no affiliation with, the University of Illinois last published a comprehensive list of faculty salaries in 2016. At the time, there were ten assistant professors of economics, all making between $130K and $133K. The top full professor makes $243K. Higher-ranked departments and those at private universities pay more.

Your anecdotes to the contrary are not relevant.

And your cherry picking a random school to support your point isn't really relevant either. You do realize there are THOUSANDS of universities with economics professors. Illinois is #29. The number of universities who pay less than Illinois is probably greater than the number who pay more.

I will represent to you based on personal experience on both sides of the economics job market that Illinois’ starting salary is typical for state universities, and that elite programs pay much more. The private sector (e.g., litigation consulting) can pay more than $200K to fresh PhDs at the high end. The low end of the profession (“directional” state schools without PhD programs, poor-middling liberal arts colleges) indeed pay less, although starting at $80-90K at such a place is entirely reasonable, and they top out slightly into six figures.

Outside of economics, some fields pay even more, some about the same, and some much less. Other posters are correct that options outside of academia are strongly correlated with academic salary.

Oh hey Mr. Economist! Did you know there is actually ... data on this? Median Salary nationwide for post-secondary economics teachers is $98k. of course this varies a lot regionally. In Virginia the median is 90K and the low is 41k and the high is 200k. So to say that 100K plus is "typical" is clearly incorrect. https://www.onetonline.org/link/details/25-1063.00

This has detailed survey information on salaries for new econ PhDs in the 2015-2016 market (tables 6-7, figures 6-7). Per table 7, all PhD-granting departments paid an average of $121K, a min of 83K, and a max of $182K to new PhDs. Top 30 institutions paid an average of $140K, a min of $110K, and a max of $182K. Bachelors and masters granting universities paid an average of $89K, a min of $67K, and a max of $120K to fresh PhDs. The last group of jobs includes both top liberal arts schools (which would be at the top of the distribution) and places you have never heard of (which would be at the bottom). My experience has been that while the places you have never heard of are perfectly fine jobs, they are competing for the bottom of the distribution of new PhDs, i.e. competent teachers from lower-ranked PhD programs who are not promising researchers.

Your survey includes anyone who describes themselves as an "economics teacher." This includes lecturers, adjuncts, and community college instructors. These positions often do not even require PhDs, and invariably require only teaching (which is easy, and so does not pay well) and no research (which is hard, and pays very well). That said, even ignoring this bottom segment of the profession, your data indicate that half of all people who consider themselves to be economics teachers make more than $100K, so I'm not sure what point you see your link as advancing.

The point is that you and other posters are suggesting "all professors make 200k+"! when really that is a tiny slice, even for econ professors. Because as you know, the PhD granting and top 30 are a small slice. And there are an increasing number of adjuncts who make up that 40k bottom.

[Anonymous]

PP here. I will add that the starting salaries linked above are for nine months, and, although I don't think this well-known outside of academia, is usually supplemented by "summer funding." For new PhDs, this is simply an extra 1/9 or 2/9 of salary, sometimes tied to research output, sometimes not. For successful advanced folks who get grants, it often means an extra 3/9.

Again, all the salaries I discuss above do not include this summer funding.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Associate professors are creeping into the mid $200s now too, non-tenure track, and fresh out of PhD. Part of this is salary creep when mixed with an egalitarian university environment. When you pay $1m+ for the big name ‘vanity professors’ the folks that teach the rest of the core classes can’t be too many multiples off or you’d not be able to staff the courses.

What? Please tell me where non-tenure track newly PhD professors are getting 200k as a starting salary? Maybe in Finance, but not anywhere else, surely. I know a true superstar humanities professor at a truly top school, and he got a bit more than $200k to move there, after he had already had tenure elsewhere for 4-5 years.

DP. Don’t you know that associate professors are usually tenure track and, in some instances, have tenure? Throw in sabbaticals and summers off sometimes (yes, summers off—my parents are tenured professors) and it’s a darn fine job. Good luck getting one, though. Many are staying on through their 80s. There’s an odd, felt need among some people (see, e.g., this thread) to downplay the increased money many professors have been getting for quite some time now. It’s like some folks need to believe they are underpaid.

Sure it's a good job with perks. Many make a good UMC salary, with flexbility. Many more however are scraping the bottom as adjuncts. The 200k plus star professors are the exception. If you can show me data that shows that academic salaries on the whole are going up, I'd be interested to see it. That runs counter to everything I've read about the increasing reliance on adjuncts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP here. I will add that the starting salaries linked above are for nine months, and, although I don't think this well-known outside of academia, is usually supplemented by "summer funding." For new PhDs, this is simply an extra 1/9 or 2/9 of salary, sometimes tied to research output, sometimes not. For successful advanced folks who get grants, it often means an extra 3/9.

Again, all the salaries I discuss above do not include this summer funding.

You're just repeating yourself. I believe you - a tenure track hire into a top 30 econ department probably starts off with a good salary. That's not starting at 200k, and that's far from the average life of an acacdemic these days.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I used to work at a DC university in public health about three years ago. They hired assistant profs at $85-$95 and most with tenure weren't earning much above $115k. A few rockstars out of many earned closer to $200k. The state research university I worked at in the midwest had tenured people at the END of their careers earning $120k max (most were in the $80k range).

You have to really love the subject matter (or like not having to dress a particular way), because you'll never be rich being a professor.

I should add that the state research university I worked/studied at was in the economics department. So the idea that fresh new grads come out at $125-175k as assistant professors is laughable. The people I went to grad school with now have tenure and teach at middling public universities. They earn about $100k.

Picking a state university I have no affiliation with, the University of Illinois last published a comprehensive list of faculty salaries in 2016. At the time, there were ten assistant professors of economics, all making between $130K and $133K. The top full professor makes $243K. Higher-ranked departments and those at private universities pay more.

Your anecdotes to the contrary are not relevant.

And your cherry picking a random school to support your point isn't really relevant either. You do realize there are THOUSANDS of universities with economics professors. Illinois is #29. The number of universities who pay less than Illinois is probably greater than the number who pay more.

I will represent to you based on personal experience on both sides of the economics job market that Illinois’ starting salary is typical for state universities, and that elite programs pay much more. The private sector (e.g., litigation consulting) can pay more than $200K to fresh PhDs at the high end. The low end of the profession (“directional” state schools without PhD programs, poor-middling liberal arts colleges) indeed pay less, although starting at $80-90K at such a place is entirely reasonable, and they top out slightly into six figures.

Outside of economics, some fields pay even more, some about the same, and some much less. Other posters are correct that options outside of academia are strongly correlated with academic salary.

Oh hey Mr. Economist! Did you know there is actually ... data on this? Median Salary nationwide for post-secondary economics teachers is $98k. of course this varies a lot regionally. In Virginia the median is 90K and the low is 41k and the high is 200k. So to say that 100K plus is "typical" is clearly incorrect. https://www.onetonline.org/link/details/25-1063.00

This has detailed survey information on salaries for new econ PhDs in the 2015-2016 market (tables 6-7, figures 6-7). Per table 7, all PhD-granting departments paid an average of $121K, a min of 83K, and a max of $182K to new PhDs. Top 30 institutions paid an average of $140K, a min of $110K, and a max of $182K. Bachelors and masters granting universities paid an average of $89K, a min of $67K, and a max of $120K to fresh PhDs. The last group of jobs includes both top liberal arts schools (which would be at the top of the distribution) and places you have never heard of (which would be at the bottom). My experience has been that while the places you have never heard of are perfectly fine jobs, they are competing for the bottom of the distribution of new PhDs, i.e. competent teachers from lower-ranked PhD programs who are not promising researchers.

Your survey includes anyone who describes themselves as an "economics teacher." This includes lecturers, adjuncts, and community college instructors. These positions often do not even require PhDs, and invariably require only teaching (which is easy, and so does not pay well) and no research (which is hard, and pays very well). That said, even ignoring this bottom segment of the profession, your data indicate that half of all people who consider themselves to be economics teachers make more than $100K, so I'm not sure what point you see your link as advancing.

The point is that you and other posters are suggesting "all professors make 200k+"! when really that is a tiny slice, even for econ professors. Because as you know, the PhD granting and top 30 are a small slice. And there are an increasing number of adjuncts who make up that 40k bottom.

I do not agree that it is a "tiny slice" of the econ profession that makes good money. Departments at PhD-granting institutions, along with a few strong liberal arts departments, government agencies, and private sector companies produce essentially all economics research, and employ the majority of the profession. PhD students who take their craft seriously go to such a place, or if they cannot find a match, to the private sector. I will represent to you that literally no new econ PhD makes 40K/year, even for those who take jobs with no research expectations. Lecturers at state universities may make $80K, with no research responsibilities! There is not "an increasing number of adjuncts," you may be thinking about something you've heard about other fields.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I used to work at a DC university in public health about three years ago. They hired assistant profs at $85-$95 and most with tenure weren't earning much above $115k. A few rockstars out of many earned closer to $200k. The state research university I worked at in the midwest had tenured people at the END of their careers earning $120k max (most were in the $80k range).

You have to really love the subject matter (or like not having to dress a particular way), because you'll never be rich being a professor.

I should add that the state research university I worked/studied at was in the economics department. So the idea that fresh new grads come out at $125-175k as assistant professors is laughable. The people I went to grad school with now have tenure and teach at middling public universities. They earn about $100k.

Picking a state university I have no affiliation with, the University of Illinois last published a comprehensive list of faculty salaries in 2016. At the time, there were ten assistant professors of economics, all making between $130K and $133K. The top full professor makes $243K. Higher-ranked departments and those at private universities pay more.

Your anecdotes to the contrary are not relevant.

And your cherry picking a random school to support your point isn't really relevant either. You do realize there are THOUSANDS of universities with economics professors. Illinois is #29. The number of universities who pay less than Illinois is probably greater than the number who pay more.

I will represent to you based on personal experience on both sides of the economics job market that Illinois’ starting salary is typical for state universities, and that elite programs pay much more. The private sector (e.g., litigation consulting) can pay more than $200K to fresh PhDs at the high end. The low end of the profession (“directional” state schools without PhD programs, poor-middling liberal arts colleges) indeed pay less, although starting at $80-90K at such a place is entirely reasonable, and they top out slightly into six figures.

Outside of economics, some fields pay even more, some about the same, and some much less. Other posters are correct that options outside of academia are strongly correlated with academic salary.

Oh hey Mr. Economist! Did you know there is actually ... data on this? Median Salary nationwide for post-secondary economics teachers is $98k. of course this varies a lot regionally. In Virginia the median is 90K and the low is 41k and the high is 200k. So to say that 100K plus is "typical" is clearly incorrect. https://www.onetonline.org/link/details/25-1063.00

This has detailed survey information on salaries for new econ PhDs in the 2015-2016 market (tables 6-7, figures 6-7). Per table 7, all PhD-granting departments paid an average of $121K, a min of 83K, and a max of $182K to new PhDs. Top 30 institutions paid an average of $140K, a min of $110K, and a max of $182K. Bachelors and masters granting universities paid an average of $89K, a min of $67K, and a max of $120K to fresh PhDs. The last group of jobs includes both top liberal arts schools (which would be at the top of the distribution) and places you have never heard of (which would be at the bottom). My experience has been that while the places you have never heard of are perfectly fine jobs, they are competing for the bottom of the distribution of new PhDs, i.e. competent teachers from lower-ranked PhD programs who are not promising researchers.

Your survey includes anyone who describes themselves as an "economics teacher." This includes lecturers, adjuncts, and community college instructors. These positions often do not even require PhDs, and invariably require only teaching (which is easy, and so does not pay well) and no research (which is hard, and pays very well). That said, even ignoring this bottom segment of the profession, your data indicate that half of all people who consider themselves to be economics teachers make more than $100K, so I'm not sure what point you see your link as advancing.

The point is that you and other posters are suggesting "all professors make 200k+"! when really that is a tiny slice, even for econ professors. Because as you know, the PhD granting and top 30 are a small slice. And there are an increasing number of adjuncts who make up that 40k bottom.

I do not agree that it is a "tiny slice" of the econ profession that makes good money. Departments at PhD-granting institutions, along with a few strong liberal arts departments, government agencies, and private sector companies produce essentially all economics research, and employ the majority of the profession. PhD students who take their craft seriously go to such a place, or if they cannot find a match, to the private sector. I will represent to you that literally no new econ PhD makes 40K/year, even for those who take jobs with no research expectations. Lecturers at state universities may make $80K, with no research responsibilities! There is not "an increasing number of adjuncts," you may be thinking about something you've heard about other fields.

Let me "represent to you" the actual topic of this post ("professors") and the actual data, which demonstrates that a tiny slice of all econ post-secondary educators make 200k.

[Anonymous]

“I will represent to you”

LOL.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Associate professors are creeping into the mid $200s now too, non-tenure track, and fresh out of PhD. Part of this is salary creep when mixed with an egalitarian university environment. When you pay $1m+ for the big name ‘vanity professors’ the folks that teach the rest of the core classes can’t be too many multiples off or you’d not be able to staff the courses.

What? Please tell me where non-tenure track newly PhD professors are getting 200k as a starting salary? Maybe in Finance, but not anywhere else, surely. I know a true superstar humanities professor at a truly top school, and he got a bit more than $200k to move there, after he had already had tenure elsewhere for 4-5 years.

I have seen two financing applications for new professors this week, one from AU and one from GW with their offer letters as proof of income. AU was a history professor being offered $189k and GW was a international relations professor being offered $257k - both brand new PhDs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Associate professors are creeping into the mid $200s now too, non-tenure track, and fresh out of PhD. Part of this is salary creep when mixed with an egalitarian university environment. When you pay $1m+ for the big name ‘vanity professors’ the folks that teach the rest of the core classes can’t be too many multiples off or you’d not be able to staff the courses.

What? Please tell me where non-tenure track newly PhD professors are getting 200k as a starting salary? Maybe in Finance, but not anywhere else, surely. I know a true superstar humanities professor at a truly top school, and he got a bit more than $200k to move there, after he had already had tenure elsewhere for 4-5 years.

I have seen two financing applications for new professors this week, one from AU and one from GW with their offer letters as proof of income. AU was a history professor being offered $189k and GW was a international relations professor being offered $257k - both brand new PhDs.

What is an international relations professor and who is gw competing with in the private sector to get them?

[Anonymous]

Yes that sounds more like high ranking govt official who is now teaching ir. Not the same as new phd.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Many/most public professor salaries are public, FWIW. And they’re nowhere NEAR $650K.

But... the benefits. My tenure track professor husband has his base salary (85K) but also travel and research budgets (10K each), generous retirement and health insurance, free college almost anywhere for our kids — who are nowhere near that age yet but the benefit is grandfathered in — and we also got a housing gift/subsidy to buy a house. All of those combined make his real salary higher, I think.

I guess my point is to neither raise eyebrows nor sympathetic toasts to tenure track faculty, since many of them are doing just fine, but not insanely so.

Those benefits will ultimately only continue if he gets tenure, obviously. And doing “fine” must be measured against what the person’s earning potential is outside of academia.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Associate professors are creeping into the mid $200s now too, non-tenure track, and fresh out of PhD. Part of this is salary creep when mixed with an egalitarian university environment. When you pay $1m+ for the big name ‘vanity professors’ the folks that teach the rest of the core classes can’t be too many multiples off or you’d not be able to staff the courses.

What? Please tell me where non-tenure track newly PhD professors are getting 200k as a starting salary? Maybe in Finance, but not anywhere else, surely. I know a true superstar humanities professor at a truly top school, and he got a bit more than $200k to move there, after he had already had tenure elsewhere for 4-5 years.

I have seen two financing applications for new professors this week, one from AU and one from GW with their offer letters as proof of income. AU was a history professor being offered $189k and GW was a international relations professor being offered $257k - both brand new PhDs.

What is an international relations professor and who is gw competing with in the private sector to get them?

Those are two barely mediocre schools that charge an arm and a leg for tuition.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Let me "represent to you" the actual topic of this post ("professors") and the actual data, which demonstrates that a tiny slice of all econ post-secondary educators make 200k.

Your first posts stated that it was laughable that a new econ professor would make more than $125K; I corrected you with relevant data and personal experience. Then you chose to pick a fight with me on one of the very few topics I know more about than all but a couple of thousand people alive! And it's fine if you don't believe me; perhaps I'm simply a crazy person who impersonates an economics professor in his/her spare time. I guess it's fine if you don't believe the Cawley study I linked to either; perhaps he's a crazy person who makes up data when he's not busy with his Cornell duties. Same for this paper, which has a detailed description of the economics job market (table 9 lists new PhD salary quartiles for various types of jobs in 2010 dollars).

I was interested in posting some of this information because I don't think people realize that a PhD can be a pretty decent investment, depending on field. I'm not disputing (nor confirming) tales of impoverished humanities PhDs struggling to make ends meet while adjuncting. But this simply does not exist for economics PhD students, including those graduating from the weakest programs. As with other relatively well-compensated fields, this is because of relatively richer private sector opportunities.

At any rate, I defer to you for the last word.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let me "represent to you" the actual topic of this post ("professors") and the actual data, which demonstrates that a tiny slice of all econ post-secondary educators make 200k.

Your first posts stated that it was laughable that a new econ professor would make more than $125K; I corrected you with relevant data and personal experience. Then you chose to pick a fight with me on one of the very few topics I know more about than all but a couple of thousand people alive! And it's fine if you don't believe me; perhaps I'm simply a crazy person who impersonates an economics professor in his/her spare time. I guess it's fine if you don't believe the Cawley study I linked to either; perhaps he's a crazy person who makes up data when he's not busy with his Cornell duties. Same for this paper, which has a detailed description of the economics job market (table 9 lists new PhD salary quartiles for various types of jobs in 2010 dollars).

I was interested in posting some of this information because I don't think people realize that a PhD can be a pretty decent investment, depending on field. I'm not disputing (nor confirming) tales of impoverished humanities PhDs struggling to make ends meet while adjuncting. But this simply does not exist for economics PhD students, including those graduating from the weakest programs. As with other relatively well-compensated fields, this is because of relatively richer private sector opportunities.

At any rate, I defer to you for the last word.

I’m the original PP. You have multiple people arguing against your point. Seems foolish to discount someone else’s personal experience in favor of your own, but whatevs. I guess my econ grad school wasn’t as rigorous as yours.