Aggressive Dog + Little Kids

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Just curious, if someone was taking an aggressive dog to the vet to be put to sleep what do you even say to the vet? What if it's a relatively young dog like this case, would the vet try and talk you out of it?

PP trainer here - A good vet will do an exam to rule out physical problems. For example, a dog in pain will sometimes bite when otherwise he would not. If there are no physical problems and you explain that the dog has been aggressive, the vet will euthanize. It's much more humane (and much safer) that taking him to the shelter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm having a hard time believing this is real. OP, we own and train (and have bred) German Shepherds. I love dogs! We have two wonderful, well-trained, well-socialized GSDs who I adore! Right now I have three German Shepherds in my house because I'm babysitting a friends' pup. We love dogs! No good trainer would ever tell you to keep an aggressive dog in the house with kids. I had to have a rescue dog put down several years ago. He started out fine and became aggressive over time. I took him to the vet to rule out physical causes. I talked with other trainers. The consensus was that he was a fear biter due to a history of abuse. The day he snapped at my husband was his last day in our home.

You do not, under any circumstances, allow an aggressive dog to live in a home with children. There are no exceptions. No good trainer would suggest otherwise.

Sadly, there is are a lot of people that believe that any behavior issue in a dog can be trained away with enough effort and if you can't "fix" your dog's behavior, that's a failure on your part, you just didn't try hard enough. There have always been people that thought that way but then with the Michael Vick fighting dog rehabilitation stories, more and more people bought into the thought that ANY dog can be trained and rehabbed and turned into a perfect family pet so a failure to do so is entirely on the people, not the dog. These people generally don't realize there is a huge difference between dog aggression and human aggression or realize it and just don't care. One (dog aggression) is manageable although a huge PITA, the other (human aggression) is or at least should be a nonstarter. That's not to say I disagree with the second chance the Vick dogs were given, I think amazing work was done there and it's a good example for future cases where these fighting dog rings are busted up, but extrapolating the results out to every dog with aggression issues, especially human aggression issues, is a fallacy.

It goes hand in hand, in my mind, with the people who believe that in order to be a "good" dog owner, you have to be ready, willing, and able to plunk down $20,000 for medical expenses to save your pet and should never have a monetary threshold at which point you say "enough", the only concern should be the physical well being of the pet. It just isn't reality.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm having a hard time believing this is real. OP, we own and train (and have bred) German Shepherds. I love dogs! We have two wonderful, well-trained, well-socialized GSDs who I adore! Right now I have three German Shepherds in my house because I'm babysitting a friends' pup. We love dogs! No good trainer would ever tell you to keep an aggressive dog in the house with kids. I had to have a rescue dog put down several years ago. He started out fine and became aggressive over time. I took him to the vet to rule out physical causes. I talked with other trainers. The consensus was that he was a fear biter due to a history of abuse. The day he snapped at my husband was his last day in our home.

You do not, under any circumstances, allow an aggressive dog to live in a home with children. There are no exceptions. No good trainer would suggest otherwise.

Sadly, there is are a lot of people that believe that any behavior issue in a dog can be trained away with enough effort and if you can't "fix" your dog's behavior, that's a failure on your part, you just didn't try hard enough. There have always been people that thought that way but then with the Michael Vick fighting dog rehabilitation stories, more and more people bought into the thought that ANY dog can be trained and rehabbed and turned into a perfect family pet so a failure to do so is entirely on the people, not the dog. These people generally don't realize there is a huge difference between dog aggression and human aggression or realize it and just don't care. One (dog aggression) is manageable although a huge PITA, the other (human aggression) is or at least should be a nonstarter. That's not to say I disagree with the second chance the Vick dogs were given, I think amazing work was done there and it's a good example for future cases where these fighting dog rings are busted up, but extrapolating the results out to every dog with aggression issues, especially human aggression issues, is a fallacy.

It goes hand in hand, in my mind, with the people who believe that in order to be a "good" dog owner, you have to be ready, willing, and able to plunk down $20,000 for medical expenses to save your pet and should never have a monetary threshold at which point you say "enough", the only concern should be the physical well being of the pet. It just isn't reality.

Fighting dogs, even Michael Vicks dogs, should be put down without exception.

Theee are too many other quality pets in shelters being put down every day. There is not need to keep the violent blood lines around.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm having a hard time believing this is real. OP, we own and train (and have bred) German Shepherds. I love dogs! We have two wonderful, well-trained, well-socialized GSDs who I adore! Right now I have three German Shepherds in my house because I'm babysitting a friends' pup. We love dogs! No good trainer would ever tell you to keep an aggressive dog in the house with kids. I had to have a rescue dog put down several years ago. He started out fine and became aggressive over time. I took him to the vet to rule out physical causes. I talked with other trainers. The consensus was that he was a fear biter due to a history of abuse. The day he snapped at my husband was his last day in our home.

You do not, under any circumstances, allow an aggressive dog to live in a home with children. There are no exceptions. No good trainer would suggest otherwise.

Sadly, there is are a lot of people that believe that any behavior issue in a dog can be trained away with enough effort and if you can't "fix" your dog's behavior, that's a failure on your part, you just didn't try hard enough. There have always been people that thought that way but then with the Michael Vick fighting dog rehabilitation stories, more and more people bought into the thought that ANY dog can be trained and rehabbed and turned into a perfect family pet so a failure to do so is entirely on the people, not the dog. These people generally don't realize there is a huge difference between dog aggression and human aggression or realize it and just don't care. One (dog aggression) is manageable although a huge PITA, the other (human aggression) is or at least should be a nonstarter. That's not to say I disagree with the second chance the Vick dogs were given, I think amazing work was done there and it's a good example for future cases where these fighting dog rings are busted up, but extrapolating the results out to every dog with aggression issues, especially human aggression issues, is a fallacy.

It goes hand in hand, in my mind, with the people who believe that in order to be a "good" dog owner, you have to be ready, willing, and able to plunk down $20,000 for medical expenses to save your pet and should never have a monetary threshold at which point you say "enough", the only concern should be the physical well being of the pet. It just isn't reality.

Fighting dogs, even Michael Vicks dogs, should be put down without exception.

Theee are too many other quality pets in shelters being put down every day. There is not need to keep the violent blood lines around.

This is a ridiculous argument because ANY reputable rescue organization is going to spay/neuter before adopting the dog out. So as long as that dog is able to be rehabilitated and into a home that can handle the specific needs of that dog, it gets old and dies without further procreation. No "blood line" to worry about. My dog is a rescued fighting dog and while he is (understandably) dog aggressive, there is no reason he should have been summarily euthanized for that fact alone. The rescue did their due diligence by neutering him and placing him in a home with no children or other pets (though he's fine with kids). This certainly isn't the case for every, or probably even most, fighting dogs. But they do not all deserve to be put down.

[Anonymous]

Put the dog down. It's the most humane thing for the animal.

Today. Get rid of the dog today.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You said in an earlier post that anything you do will be the wrong thing.

Euthanizing this dog is not the wrong thing. It is the right thing to do. No question. I'm sorry that it feels hard and it feels wrong, but it is actually right. You cannot risk this dog biting you, your husband, your kids, or anyone else.

Thank you so much for this. I know you're right, it has just taken me a while to accept it. I feel so guilty.

You should. You failed this dog.

It makes me sad for OP’s whole family. The dog’s issues were ignored until it became so bad that he has to be completely separated and shown no love. OP says the dog “may be sick” but hasn’t been willing to take it to the vet to find out and has let the issues fester. What a miserable life for all of them.

OP, I hope you put the dog down and find peace with the decision.

[Anonymous]

Update? I'm curious whether the OP had her dog put down yet or re-homed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thank you for the helpful responses.

My husband and I talked (and cried) about it for several hours last night before bed. He is on board with getting rid of the dog whichever way is best.

We are 100% sure we are not keeping him.
We are 100% sure we are not rehoming him to just any regular person.

We have looked into rescues specifically for aggressive dogs. My husband is going to contact a few of them today and explain the situation. Depending on what they say, we will have a plan and take care of this one way or the other this week or early next week.

My kids are not in any danger. The way the house is set up and how they are separated, there is absolutely no way they can get to each other. My husband is the only one who handles the dog. I go near him twice a day to feed him and my husband takes care of the rest.

He had stopped his aggressive behavior for the most part for a long time, so we thought it would be fine once he got used to the kids. Obviously this isn't what any of us wanted in any way.

My husband pointed out that the dog hasn't been acting right over the past couple weeks. As I said, my husband is the only one who handles/takes care of him, so I hadn't noticed. He may be sick and euthanizing him might be the best option for that reason too. It's my understanding that purebred dogs have more health issues than mixed breed dogs, and I would assume it would be even worse in inbred dogs.

This shows you don't know the first thing about dogs. Most dogs are inbred, OP. To have the same dog mentioned in the family tree several times is common, for those that have family trees, and most of them are not aggressive and aren't sick by 7! The way you check to see if a line has genetic defects is that you choose a breeder who tests their dogs for all known diseases and enters the info in a database called CHIC:
http://www.caninehealthinfo.org/chicinfo.html

"He may be sick". Well, there's a profession called veterinary medicine that can check that for you. Or are you saying the dog is so aggressive that no vet can go near him?

Yep, you're right. I had never had a dog before this one. I admit I don't know much about dog.

I don't know if it's true that most dogs are inbred, but I do know that when I first took this dog to the vet and showed him his papers, he said it was a problem and would most likely cause health and behavioral issues. The dog has the same grandfather on both sides. I don't know anything about breeding dogs so I don't know how close is too close, but a vet I have known since I was a little girl and trust said it was an issue and I believe him. The family member I took him from was planning on breeding him and the vet said that should not be done under any circumstances because of the double grandfather thing. This breeder did not test their dogs and didn't enter anything into the database. Again, it was my family member who bought him, so I had no control over where he came from.

We do think he might be sick, yes, but sick or not, this is a huge problem because it has been going on for so long. We would never be able to trust him.

Yeah. The vet is wrong. It happens. Take it from a geneticist. In humans, of course, it would be a different story.

Could you as a geneticist explain to me how genetics are different in dogs and humans? The dogs parents were first cousins. That absolutely can increase the frequency of genetic problems in any mammal. A Punnet square is a Punnet Square, my friend.

And not all dogs are inbred. My mutt certainly isn't. All purebred dogs are inbred to a certain degree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Update? I'm curious whether the OP had her dog put down yet or re-homed.

OP here. I apologize for basically abandoning this thread - I have had a hard time with this and reading this thread wasn't helpful.

We did get the dog put to sleep. It was one of the hardest decisions of my life (maybe even the #1 hardest) and I'm still not sure it was the right thing to do. Still not at peace with it like I thought I would be. I thought I would feel like we 100% made the right choice. Nope! I do feel like part of my regret is because it was rough for him at the end. I thought it would be peaceful for him. They had to sedate him several times first because it wouldn't take. Then they had to do the actual euthanasia shot three times. He was really anxious and had a hard time in the car and in the waiting room.

We spoiled him with food and treats over the last week of his life. We took him for a long walk to his favorite place the morning of. We told him he was a good boy and that it wasn't a punishment. We thanked him for the years we had with him and told him we love him.

When we took him in, he tried to attack the vet and assistant several times even though he was muzzled. My husband told me, "This is exactly why we have to do this." We had him cremated. The morning we got the call to come pick up his ashes, I read yet another article about a dog killing a child. I thought to myself, "Hey, maybe that's a sign we did the right thing" (since I read it right before we got the call) but now I feel guilty for thinking badly of him. I know it's absolutely never worth the risk, but he may have never hurt the kids and all of this was for nothing. He was a young dog, and he was a really good boy a lot of the time. I could never trust him though, even if he miraculously changed overnight.

Obviously I am still really struggling with this. I still cry and talk to him daily. We have his ashes displayed in a beautiful box with one of his favorite toys sitting on top of it, a little stuffed puppy that looks just like him. We bought a nice picture frame and are going to find a good picture of him to sit beside it. Having his ashes here with us has helped some, but I do feel like a piece of me is missing and can't ever be replaced. Despite his problems, he did so much for me, and this is how I repay him?

[Anonymous]

OP again.

I meant to add that I would have preferred to rehome him, but my husband said that it would just be putting a huge problem in a different environment. One where they didn't know his triggers and he would most likely be more anxious. He said that if he had new people, they would end up just getting him put to sleep anyway, and it would be better for him to be with us when it happened instead of strangers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Update? I'm curious whether the OP had her dog put down yet or re-homed.

OP here. I apologize for basically abandoning this thread - I have had a hard time with this and reading this thread wasn't helpful.

We did get the dog put to sleep. It was one of the hardest decisions of my life (maybe even the #1 hardest) and I'm still not sure it was the right thing to do. Still not at peace with it like I thought I would be. I thought I would feel like we 100% made the right choice. Nope! I do feel like part of my regret is because it was rough for him at the end. I thought it would be peaceful for him. They had to sedate him several times first because it wouldn't take. Then they had to do the actual euthanasia shot three times. He was really anxious and had a hard time in the car and in the waiting room.

We spoiled him with food and treats over the last week of his life. We took him for a long walk to his favorite place the morning of. We told him he was a good boy and that it wasn't a punishment. We thanked him for the years we had with him and told him we love him.

When we took him in, he tried to attack the vet and assistant several times even though he was muzzled. My husband told me, "This is exactly why we have to do this." We had him cremated. The morning we got the call to come pick up his ashes, I read yet another article about a dog killing a child. I thought to myself, "Hey, maybe that's a sign we did the right thing" (since I read it right before we got the call) but now I feel guilty for thinking badly of him. I know it's absolutely never worth the risk, but he may have never hurt the kids and all of this was for nothing. He was a young dog, and he was a really good boy a lot of the time. I could never trust him though, even if he miraculously changed overnight.

Obviously I am still really struggling with this. I still cry and talk to him daily. We have his ashes displayed in a beautiful box with one of his favorite toys sitting on top of it, a little stuffed puppy that looks just like him. We bought a nice picture frame and are going to find a good picture of him to sit beside it. Having his ashes here with us has helped some, but I do feel like a piece of me is missing and can't ever be replaced. Despite his problems, he did so much for me, and this is how I repay him?

I am sorry for the loss. You made the right decision for your family given how far the situation had devolved. I don’t recommend you get a dog again, at least not until your kids are MUCH older, but if you do I’m sure this taught you many lessons.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Update? I'm curious whether the OP had her dog put down yet or re-homed.

OP here. I apologize for basically abandoning this thread - I have had a hard time with this and reading this thread wasn't helpful.

We did get the dog put to sleep. It was one of the hardest decisions of my life (maybe even the #1 hardest) and I'm still not sure it was the right thing to do. Still not at peace with it like I thought I would be. I thought I would feel like we 100% made the right choice. Nope! I do feel like part of my regret is because it was rough for him at the end. I thought it would be peaceful for him. They had to sedate him several times first because it wouldn't take. Then they had to do the actual euthanasia shot three times. He was really anxious and had a hard time in the car and in the waiting room.

We spoiled him with food and treats over the last week of his life. We took him for a long walk to his favorite place the morning of. We told him he was a good boy and that it wasn't a punishment. We thanked him for the years we had with him and told him we love him.

When we took him in, he tried to attack the vet and assistant several times even though he was muzzled. My husband told me, "This is exactly why we have to do this." We had him cremated. The morning we got the call to come pick up his ashes, I read yet another article about a dog killing a child. I thought to myself, "Hey, maybe that's a sign we did the right thing" (since I read it right before we got the call) but now I feel guilty for thinking badly of him. I know it's absolutely never worth the risk, but he may have never hurt the kids and all of this was for nothing. He was a young dog, and he was a really good boy a lot of the time. I could never trust him though, even if he miraculously changed overnight.

Obviously I am still really struggling with this. I still cry and talk to him daily. We have his ashes displayed in a beautiful box with one of his favorite toys sitting on top of it, a little stuffed puppy that looks just like him. We bought a nice picture frame and are going to find a good picture of him to sit beside it. Having his ashes here with us has helped some, but I do feel like a piece of me is missing and can't ever be replaced. Despite his problems, he did so much for me, and this is how I repay him?

I am sorry for the loss. You made the right decision for your family given how far the situation had devolved. I don’t recommend you get a dog again, at least not until your kids are MUCH older, but if you do I’m sure this taught you many lessons.

Definitely! I don't know if I will ever feel comfortable having a dog again.

[Anonymous]

Op, I know it is super hard putting a pet down. One one had there was a reason (could potentially hurt the kids) and on the other hand he was your first baby and it’s hard to let him go. In the end, you did what you had to do. One day, you’ll look at his ashes/pictures and think of him fondly instead of breaking down in tears.

[Anonymous]

OP, I feel for you. I was in a similar situation. It took me about a year to not feel sad and think about it a few times a day. I felt guilt and regret even though I knew intellectually it was the right decision.

I want to copy here what a PP said. This helped me more than ANYTHING else I have read while dealing with my situation.

Btw, I can understand that you felt you needed to abandon the thread. Some people just can't put themselves in the shoes of others.

From a PP on this thread:

"Euthanasia is humane. A dog behaving like this likely is not happy anyway. You will feel badly for a few days and tender for a bit longer, but you will be able to manage the grief. In fact, you may find things easier once you’ve made a decision and you are no longer trying to balance everyone’s wellbeing.

I’ll observe too that this situation has gone on for a while. It sounds like you know it’s unwise. Maybe I’m reading too much into it, but it seems like something has happened to disrupt your normal instincts and sense of boundaries. I don’t think you’re trying to be irresponsible, yet you’ve dragged out a decision for quite a while. Once your house is back to a safer and calmer state, you might want to reflect on that. Was this really about the dog, or do you need to do more to take care of yourself? I’m wishing you all the best with the journey ahead."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Update? I'm curious whether the OP had her dog put down yet or re-homed.

OP here. I apologize for basically abandoning this thread - I have had a hard time with this and reading this thread wasn't helpful.

We did get the dog put to sleep. It was one of the hardest decisions of my life (maybe even the #1 hardest) and I'm still not sure it was the right thing to do. Still not at peace with it like I thought I would be. I thought I would feel like we 100% made the right choice. Nope! I do feel like part of my regret is because it was rough for him at the end. I thought it would be peaceful for him. They had to sedate him several times first because it wouldn't take. Then they had to do the actual euthanasia shot three times. He was really anxious and had a hard time in the car and in the waiting room.

We spoiled him with food and treats over the last week of his life. We took him for a long walk to his favorite place the morning of. We told him he was a good boy and that it wasn't a punishment. We thanked him for the years we had with him and told him we love him.

When we took him in, he tried to attack the vet and assistant several times even though he was muzzled. My husband told me, "This is exactly why we have to do this." We had him cremated. The morning we got the call to come pick up his ashes, I read yet another article about a dog killing a child. I thought to myself, "Hey, maybe that's a sign we did the right thing" (since I read it right before we got the call) but now I feel guilty for thinking badly of him. I know it's absolutely never worth the risk, but he may have never hurt the kids and all of this was for nothing. He was a young dog, and he was a really good boy a lot of the time. I could never trust him though, even if he miraculously changed overnight.

Obviously I am still really struggling with this. I still cry and talk to him daily. We have his ashes displayed in a beautiful box with one of his favorite toys sitting on top of it, a little stuffed puppy that looks just like him. We bought a nice picture frame and are going to find a good picture of him to sit beside it. Having his ashes here with us has helped some, but I do feel like a piece of me is missing and can't ever be replaced. Despite his problems, he did so much for me, and this is how I repay him?

You did the right thing, for your children and for your dog. It wouldn't be fair to him to be kept locked away or muzzled all the time. He was living in constant stress and fear. I am sure that you would have loved a different outcome, but some things just can't be fixed. He is at peace and you should be too.