Episcopal diocese of Washington to drop male pronouns for God

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Every thread about the Episcopal church turns ugly. Why? I understand that people disagree but why the bashing? Especially of Bishop Schori?

Some of her contraversies are discussed at this link:

http://www.virtueonline.org/episcopal-presiding-bishop-katharine-jefferts-schori-heretical-piñata

The issues I have with her and other Episcopal leaders are doctrinal (denying belief in the Nicene creed is a pretty big one) and being more concerned with making the Earth a better place, than preparing believers for the life hereafter is another.

I'm not saying the later is something to be ignored. The mission of the church is to teach and help people with redemption through the blood of Christ at the cross, good works are secondary to that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Every thread about the Episcopal church turns ugly. Why? I understand that people disagree but why the bashing? Especially of Bishop Schori?

Some of her contraversies are discussed at this link:

http://www.virtueonline.org/episcopal-presiding-bishop-katharine-jefferts-schori-heretical-piñata

The issues I have with her and other Episcopal leaders are doctrinal (denying belief in the Nicene creed is a pretty big one) and being more concerned with making the Earth a better place, than preparing believers for the life hereafter is another.

I'm not saying the later is something to be ignored. The mission of the church is to teach and help people with redemption through the blood of Christ at the cross, good works are secondary to that.

Hi. Minster jumping back again. Jesus made it crystal clear what the most important thing is. Love one another. Period. That's the most important thing. Everything else is secondary. 'Don't be a dick to others' is the cornerstone of the Christian faith (and of pretty much every other faith path). What about loving God, you ask? "Whatever you do for the least of these, you do for me". You are loving God when you love others.

Redemption has been incorrectly used, abused, bought, and sold for generations. As a Christian, Jesus is my way-shower so of course I believe that we are redeemed through his death. But the message is not in his death. The message is in his willingness to sacrifice everything - his very life- for people who despised him. That's love my friend. Whole, complete, unconditional love. That's where Jesus wants us to get. It's not about the pretty words of the scripture. It's not about the dogma, the rules, the rituals. Those are important for us because they connect us with the divine. But we can't miss the most important part. The love. Love one another, period.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Wow, that's huge. And I didn't know the Church of Sweden had already done this as well.

Glad to hear it, but how will it play out semantically? "They"? "It"?

Anyway, I approve.

When we pray with non-masculine language in my synagogue, we usually just say “God” or “The One” instead of “He,” and “ruler” instead of “king” or “lord.” It’s an easy substitution.

The Lord's prayer might have some issues.

Lord, father, son come up a few times. Quite a few hymns used male gendered words etc.

NP. We (Jews) just changed the translation. In some cases, we changed the Hebrew, adding matriarchs, for example, where only patriarchs had been listed. In other cases the "original" stays the same, and there's no getting away from the patriarchal language if you read Hebrew, but otherwise ... These texts are all in translation. If you're not saying the actual text anyway, you can change it.

Also, most religious authorities will tell you that "God" is not consistently gendered, at least not in the original scriptures. God in the Hebrew scriptures has male and female names and attributes. I'm not sure what happened with the New Testament, Did God suddenly acquire fixed gender?

NJ here. (Shalom, chaver)

My understanding is that as they converted pagans, they dumped all the mother godess worship stuff onto the cult of Mary (so "The shrine of our Lady of ____ is typically a place where a goddess, esp a mother goddess, was worshiped in pagan times) When the Protestants found that prayer to Mary was not actually in the bible (either ours or "theirs") they simply dropped that side, impoverishing their spirituality in some ways. Thank G-d (so to speak) for the shekinah!

Thanks for your personal interpretation and editorializing about religions that aren’t your own. Betting you’re the first to shriek “anti-Semitism” when somebody suggests that the Torah or Zionism have issues, aren’t you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Every thread about the Episcopal church turns ugly. Why? I understand that people disagree but why the bashing? Especially of Bishop Schori?

Because 1-2 of the frequent posters here were part of the schism a few years ago when some left the Episcopal Church over women’s ordination and gay marriage—they now refer to themselves as Anglicans. As evidenced by recent vitriolic posts on other threads, they’re still hopping mad that the Episcopal Church wouldn’t let them keep the church buildings after they left.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Next step: Drop God

Yep.

That is wher e the Episcopalian "church" is leading.

They are working towards making the Bible a general suggestion and not the Word of God.

Episcopalians haven't taken the Bible literally for centuries -- because they study the human origins of the Bible

This is the essence of unbelief. If you don't accept Scripture as divinely inspired, you do not believe, and you are not a Christian. I'm not sure why some people insist that they are followers of a faith they don't have.

Divinely inspired, yes. The literal word of god, no. If you take every word in the Bible literally, then I assume you’re following everything in Leviticus about what to wear, etc?

This argument shows an extreme lack of knowledge about what the Bible says. It's probably something most people who use it have found quoted on a web site somewhere, and it sounds really smart, but it's not. I'd wager most people who use it haven't even read the actual text. If I take "every" word literally in the Bible, then I have to read beyond Leviticus, because there are a lot of words if you keep going. Try reading the Gospels, Acts, Romans, Galatians and especially Hebrews as well and see how this argument sounds after you do. If nothing else (and there is a LOT else), those were Jewish laws, not Gentile ones. Gentiles, of which I am one, are not bound by the Levitical law. The Bible literally says that (in Romans 2, for example). This is such a tired, worn-out old argument.

So you left your family and gave all your possessions away, because you take the gospels literally, right? Since Jesus didn’t talk about homosexuality, you must be fine with it, right? (And what’s your position on taking Paul’s pastoral letters literally?)

The original point was about you’re a hypocrite, and it still stands.

[Anonymous]

Because Bishop Schori destroyed the Episcopal Church. Everyone knows that. From wikipedia under "controversies" on her page. She was forced our after leaving the church in significant debt: "Controversies[edit]
Jefferts Schori's tenure was highly controversial and marked by unprecedented schism, with groups from four dioceses (Fort Worth, Pittsburgh, Quincy, and San Joaquin) breaking off to become part of the Anglican Church in North America.[6] At her direction, the national church initiated lawsuits against departing dioceses and parishes, with some $22 million spent as of 2011.[7] She also established a policy that church properties were not to be sold to departing congregations.[8]

Jefferts Schori is a supporter of same-sex relationships and of the blessing of same-sex unions and civil marriages.[9] Like her predecessor, she is a supporter of abortion rights, stating that "We say it is a moral tragedy but that it should not be the government's role to deny its availability."[9] She also supported the US Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) mandate on birth control.

Some within the church questioned the orthodoxy of her theology. For example, her statement that "the great Western heresy – is that we can be saved as individuals, that any of us alone can be in right relationship with God" in her opening address to the 2009 General Convention was widely criticized and prompted a clarifying statement from her in the following week.[10][11]"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If people need a pronoun to feel loved by and included in Christ, they have much bigger issues with their faith. (By this I mean that I think this change is absolutely ridiculous, not that the change is warranted.)

Left ECUSA years ago and have never looked back. Too much throwing the baby out with the bathwater. And I say this as a woman who supports gay marriage, ordination of women, etc.

We did too. The Episcopal Church is already dead. http://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/home-page-news-and-views/why-is-the-episcopal-church-near-collapse.aspx

Yes, lots of people like you don’t like the ECUSA because it ordains women and gays. I’m proud of it for that reason—this is Jesus’ welcome and tolerance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Because Bishop Schori destroyed the Episcopal Church. Everyone knows that. From wikipedia under "controversies" on her page. She was forced our after leaving the church in significant debt: "Controversies[edit]
Jefferts Schori's tenure was highly controversial and marked by unprecedented schism, with groups from four dioceses (Fort Worth, Pittsburgh, Quincy, and San Joaquin) breaking off to become part of the Anglican Church in North America.[6] At her direction, the national church initiated lawsuits against departing dioceses and parishes, with some $22 million spent as of 2011.[7] She also established a policy that church properties were not to be sold to departing congregations.[8]

Jefferts Schori is a supporter of same-sex relationships and of the blessing of same-sex unions and civil marriages.[9] Like her predecessor, she is a supporter of abortion rights, stating that "We say it is a moral tragedy but that it should not be the government's role to deny its availability."[9] She also supported the US Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) mandate on birth control.

Some within the church questioned the orthodoxy of her theology. For example, her statement that "the great Western heresy – is that we can be saved as individuals, that any of us alone can be in right relationship with God" in her opening address to the 2009 General Convention was widely criticized and prompted a clarifying statement from her in the following week.[10][11]"

No, “everybody” does not know that. Peace.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Every thread about the Episcopal church turns ugly. Why? I understand that people disagree but why the bashing? Especially of Bishop Schori?

Some of her contraversies are discussed at this link:

http://www.virtueonline.org/episcopal-presiding-bishop-katharine-jefferts-schori-heretical-piñata

The issues I have with her and other Episcopal leaders are doctrinal (denying belief in the Nicene creed is a pretty big one) and being more concerned with making the Earth a better place, than preparing believers for the life hereafter is another.

I'm not saying the later is something to be ignored. The mission of the church is to teach and help people with redemption through the blood of Christ at the cross, good works are secondary to that.

Hi. Minster jumping back again. Jesus made it crystal clear what the most important thing is. Love one another. Period. That's the most important thing. Everything else is secondary. 'Don't be a dick to others' is the cornerstone of the Christian faith (and of pretty much every other faith path). What about loving God, you ask? "Whatever you do for the least of these, you do for me". You are loving God when you love others.

Redemption has been incorrectly used, abused, bought, and sold for generations. As a Christian, Jesus is my way-shower so of course I believe that we are redeemed through his death. But the message is not in his death. The message is in his willingness to sacrifice everything - his very life- for people who despised him. That's love my friend. Whole, complete, unconditional love. That's where Jesus wants us to get. It's not about the pretty words of the scripture. It's not about the dogma, the rules, the rituals. Those are important for us because they connect us with the divine. But we can't miss the most important part. The love. Love one another, period.

Isn't love one another his second great commandment?

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+22%3A35-40&version=KJV

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Every thread about the Episcopal church turns ugly. Why? I understand that people disagree but why the bashing? Especially of Bishop Schori?

Some of her contraversies are discussed at this link:

http://www.virtueonline.org/episcopal-presiding-bishop-katharine-jefferts-schori-heretical-piñata

The issues I have with her and other Episcopal leaders are doctrinal (denying belief in the Nicene creed is a pretty big one) and being more concerned with making the Earth a better place, than preparing believers for the life hereafter is another.

I'm not saying the later is something to be ignored. The mission of the church is to teach and help people with redemption through the blood of Christ at the cross, good works are secondary to that.

Hi. Minster jumping back again. Jesus made it crystal clear what the most important thing is. Love one another. Period. That's the most important thing. Everything else is secondary. 'Don't be a dick to others' is the cornerstone of the Christian faith (and of pretty much every other faith path). What about loving God, you ask? "Whatever you do for the least of these, you do for me". You are loving God when you love others.

Redemption has been incorrectly used, abused, bought, and sold for generations. As a Christian, Jesus is my way-shower so of course I believe that we are redeemed through his death. But the message is not in his death. The message is in his willingness to sacrifice everything - his very life- for people who despised him. That's love my friend. Whole, complete, unconditional love. That's where Jesus wants us to get. It's not about the pretty words of the scripture. It's not about the dogma, the rules, the rituals. Those are important for us because they connect us with the divine. But we can't miss the most important part. The love. Love one another, period.

This sounds nice and warm and fuzzy...but is so hilariously inaccurate I don't know where to begin.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If people need a pronoun to feel loved by and included in Christ, they have much bigger issues with their faith. (By this I mean that I think this change is absolutely ridiculous, not that the change is warranted.)

Left ECUSA years ago and have never looked back. Too much throwing the baby out with the bathwater. And I say this as a woman who supports gay marriage, ordination of women, etc.

We did too. The Episcopal Church is already dead. http://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/home-page-news-and-views/why-is-the-episcopal-church-near-collapse.aspx

Yes, lots of people like you don’t like the ECUSA because it ordains women and gays. I’m proud of it for that reason—this is Jesus’ welcome and tolerance.

I was at the women's march in another state just as a peaceful presence. I had a guy walk up to me, look at my sash, and ask me if I was "really a minister". I said "yes. I am". He went absolutely ballistic on me. He said women could not be preachers. That I was going to "special kind of hell". And that he hoped I died. Dead serious. He was from a southern baptist church. I know not all southern baptists are so hostile about it. I grew up in that church. But it really showed me just how much pure anger there is about women in ministry.

I reminded him that when Jesus came out of the tomb, women were there to greet him. Jesus chose women to share literally the heart of the gospel. He did not like that at all. I need to learn to keep my mouth shut.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From a rational point of view, they are contracting, not expanding, their image of God. God revealed an aspect of His nature as being masculine. By removing (or obscuring) that piece of revelation, you know less about God. But what would you expect - the whole Espicopal edifice is based on one thing - Henry VIII's loins.

Wrong. YOu are referring to the Anglican Church which is 85 million strong and the third largest Christian religion in the world. Episcopalians exist only in the United States and are no longer even in communion (thanks to Bishop Schori) with the Anglican Church. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglican_Communion

Not accurate.

Also, don’t you have something better to do than to constantly shit talk TEC on here? Did you get kicked off the vestery or something?

+1, with bells on.

Also, all this judging and hating doesn’t seem very Christian.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If people need a pronoun to feel loved by and included in Christ, they have much bigger issues with their faith. (By this I mean that I think this change is absolutely ridiculous, not that the change is warranted.)

Left ECUSA years ago and have never looked back. Too much throwing the baby out with the bathwater. And I say this as a woman who supports gay marriage, ordination of women, etc.

We did too. The Episcopal Church is already dead. http://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/home-page-news-and-views/why-is-the-episcopal-church-near-collapse.aspx

Yes, lots of people like you don’t like the ECUSA because it ordains women and gays. I’m proud of it for that reason—this is Jesus’ welcome and tolerance.

I was at the women's march in another state just as a peaceful presence. I had a guy walk up to me, look at my sash, and ask me if I was "really a minister". I said "yes. I am". He went absolutely ballistic on me. He said women could not be preachers. That I was going to "special kind of hell". And that he hoped I died. Dead serious. He was from a southern baptist church. I know not all southern baptists are so hostile about it. I grew up in that church. But it really showed me just how much pure anger there is about women in ministry.

I reminded him that when Jesus came out of the tomb, women were there to greet him. Jesus chose women to share literally the heart of the gospel. He did not like that at all. I need to learn to keep my mouth shut.

+1. He told Martha, or was it Mary, to get out of the kitchen and come listen to him teach. He let the woman with *gasp* unbound hair wash his feet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Because Bishop Schori destroyed the Episcopal Church. Everyone knows that. From wikipedia under "controversies" on her page. She was forced our after leaving the church in significant debt: "Controversies[edit]
Jefferts Schori's tenure was highly controversial and marked by unprecedented schism, with groups from four dioceses (Fort Worth, Pittsburgh, Quincy, and San Joaquin) breaking off to become part of the Anglican Church in North America.[6] At her direction, the national church initiated lawsuits against departing dioceses and parishes, with some $22 million spent as of 2011.[7] She also established a policy that church properties were not to be sold to departing congregations.[8]

Jefferts Schori is a supporter of same-sex relationships and of the blessing of same-sex unions and civil marriages.[9] Like her predecessor, she is a supporter of abortion rights, stating that "We say it is a moral tragedy but that it should not be the government's role to deny its availability."[9] She also supported the US Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) mandate on birth control.

Some within the church questioned the orthodoxy of her theology. For example, her statement that "the great Western heresy – is that we can be saved as individuals, that any of us alone can be in right relationship with God" in her opening address to the 2009 General Convention was widely criticized and prompted a clarifying statement from her in the following week.[10][11]"

Start your own thread about this, please.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If people need a pronoun to feel loved by and included in Christ, they have much bigger issues with their faith. (By this I mean that I think this change is absolutely ridiculous, not that the change is warranted.)

Left ECUSA years ago and have never looked back. Too much throwing the baby out with the bathwater. And I say this as a woman who supports gay marriage, ordination of women, etc.

We did too. The Episcopal Church is already dead. http://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/home-page-news-and-views/why-is-the-episcopal-church-near-collapse.aspx

Yes, lots of people like you don’t like the ECUSA because it ordains women and gays. I’m proud of it for that reason—this is Jesus’ welcome and tolerance.

You seem to forget and ignore the direction by Christ to go and sin no more.