What IS so bad a about going to a state school?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I've taught at a medium tier big urban state school and a small so-so private liberal arts college. My smartest students at the state school were brighter and more interesting than almost all the students at the private college. The kids at the private college had a bit more polish in their written work and they outperformed many of the state university students. But for all the opportunities they had growing up (a lot went to private school K-12), their intellectual work was disappointing.

I loved all my students (private and public) and I worked hard to teach them in a way that would be most helpful to them based on where they were coming from but I was very surprised that the increased advantages the private college kids had growing up didn't result in higher level work.

So, if you had to choose to employ someone and your choice was between a 2.5 GPA at the big urban state school and a 2.5 GPA at the so-so private liberal arts college, which would you choose (no other information available)?

It's hard to say.

So-so private liberal arts colleges are often havens for mediocre students from wealthy backgrounds. This isn't always the case, but it's fairly common. These schools often specialize in providing extra hands-on guidance for these students. Big state schools don't typically have the resources to provide this.

I'd be more impressed by a student from a more modest background who had to to swim upstream for several years (possibly working a day job, too) in order to graduate at a big, urban state school, where they receive little encouragement and graduation rates tend to be low. Less-competitive SLACs are almost like those lazy rivers that you see at waterparks. Just put your kid on a raft and let the river float them on to graduation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a professor and usually when i get grad students with nonexistent writing skills i look up their files and it turns out they slid through a state school
Getting passed aling with b and c grades and no one ever seriously honed in on their writing issues. Easy to get lost at a big school.

Just wondering what discipline? I was a STEM major and the only C grades I made were English Comp I & II. I've known other people like me who were good in science and technical fields, but just couldn't write to save their life. That's not always the case obviously, but for some students it's true.

Not this professor, but I am a FCPS (k-12) student who graduated from a fair-to-middling state university with a degree in English. My first job out of college was as a contract administrator and proposal writer for a government contractor. The company was full of software engineers, retired military officers and a few government analyst types. Collectively, the young software engineers were the ones with nonexistent writing and communication skills. I was paid to refine and rewrite these engineers' resumes, proposals, contracts - any of their written communications. Mutual respect at play; I enjoyed the challenge of being immersed in a tech environment with some truly brilliant people and I helped a burgeoning company get some stellar contracts.

[Anonymous]

I went to a elite SLAC, and DH went to a non-flagship regional state school without top graduate programs. Both of us went to grad school at a well regarded flagship state school with a very strong program in our field.

My experience at my SLAC: it was wonderful for me. I had intellectually engaging peers, classes that were as in depth as my grad classes by my junior/senior year, and really close knit mentoring relationships with faculty. I did research both on campus and off campus. Off campus gave me exposure to doing research with more resources, but my research on campus gave me a lot of autonomy to intellectually lead my projects. As I mentored a lot of undergrads in grad school, a lot of them were not used to taking that kind of intellectual ownership and mostly just helped me do stuff. But, I had more hand holding, which is not really a "real world experience." I was also a medium fish in a pool of very smart people, which has its disadvantages because it is harder to distinguish yourself academically.

DH: Very big fish in a not so elite environment. Because of this, he got a lot of individual attention, scholarships, academic awards, and research experience. He also did research at larger institutions over the summer. He really stood out as a stellar student (and was able to get into some great graduate programs), but on the other hand when he went to grad school, his background was deficient in some areas and he really had to self-study to catch up. He never really need to study all that hard in high school or college, and never got a B until grad school. Because DH is such a self-motivated person, he self-studied and got caught up with everyone else, but I'm not sure everyone would be that way, and I did see people who went to regional schools who were less driven flunk out.

Our observations of undergrads at Big Flagship state school: teaching is no one's priority there, so it really is what you make of it. The very best undergraduates, who get in research labs, take grad classes, take advantage of honors programs, and are driven to seek out mentors are as smart and driven as anywhere and have a phenomenal experience. And unlike an experience like mine, they did it without all the hand holding, which I think makes it all the more impressive. But on the other hand, it is easy (really easy) to slip through the cracks. I don't just mean flunk out too. I saw straight A students who had severe deficiencies in their background, because a lot of the time the lectures are huge and designed such that it is not that hard to get an A. If they don't actively seek out other opportunities (grad classes, research seminars, etc.) and just do their major requirements, their experience won't be that deep. A lot of people also never learn how to write, which rarely happened at my SLAC. I would say maybe only 2% of 18 year olds are really mature and driven enough to be the former sort of student who really maximizes their experience at a big state school. But also, a much broader number of people from all different backgrounds go to schools like that, and it is much more "real world," rather than a bubble of upper middle class privileged people.

So there you go. Will your DC do better as a big fish in a small pond, or with a stronger peer group? Are they a go getter enough to take advantage of phenomenal resources with little direction, or do they need more direct mentorship? I think it's a personal choice, and you can get a great education in a lot of settings. A lot of the time, as with many things in life, it's what you make of it.

[Anonymous]

My kids are going to state colleges, purely because of cost. We can't afford Ivies, SLACS.

We're in the donut hole: too much equity/income for FA, but no way can we afford $60+K per year for college.

I think my kids would do better at SLACs because of their personalities, but they are not going to have the choice unless they get merit aid from some SLAC, but I don't think any SLAC can offer enough merit aid to compete with in-state tuition. My kids are B+ students, so they aren't going to get huge merit offers either.

[Anonymous]

Unfortunately, the tuition at some states schools is getting expensive. In-state tuition at Penn State is almost the same now as out-of-state tuition at Florida State.

Some other other flagship state schools are almost as expensive as Penn State: http://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/the-short-list-college/articles/2014/10/28/10-colleges-where-in-state-students-pay-the-most-tuition

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is 100% dependent on the student. I went to Big State School and had a great experience. I learned a ton, developed close relationships with my professors, and graduated without debt. This allowed me the freedom to apply to my (top-ranked) graduate program of choice without worrying about my debt load.

But...some kids need more hand-holding or help finding their peer group. Or they need to have their peer group curated for them and need small class to avoid being overlooked. SLACs are great for that.

I TA'd at a highly competitive liberal arts college and their was absolutely more support. But the best kids were no better than the best kids at my Big State School.

If you feel like your kid will find the other smart, motivated, kids and has the personality to avoid getting lost in a crowd, I think it's a fine choice. Even a great choice, because it leaves some other options open.

This is an excellent response. Agree completely.

[Anonymous]

There's a maturity angle too. I went to a big state U and an elite (Think Cal Tech or MIT) PhD program. I absolutely without a doubt would have fallen to pieces as an 18 year old in either of those schools. Even though I had a great experience in college, big state schools aren't pressure cookers and there isn't that sense of intensity. I called my college experience very Montessori like. I did what I wanted when I wanted to with whom I wanted. I wasn't even aware of other people. Grad school. So different (and I taught undergrads where I saw the intensity).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There's a maturity angle too. I went to a big state U and an elite (Think Cal Tech or MIT) PhD program. I absolutely without a doubt would have fallen to pieces as an 18 year old in either of those schools. Even though I had a great experience in college, big state schools aren't pressure cookers and there isn't that sense of intensity. I called my college experience very Montessori like. I did what I wanted when I wanted to with whom I wanted. I wasn't even aware of other people. Grad school. So different (and I taught undergrads where I saw the intensity).

I don't think CalTech or MIT is a possibility if that's what you did in college.

[Anonymous]

My kids are going to state colleges, purely because of cost. We can't afford Ivies, SLACS.

We're in the donut hole: too much equity/income for FA, but no way can we afford $60+K per year for college.

I think my kids would do better at SLACs because of their personalities, but they are not going to have the choice unless they get merit aid from some SLAC, but I don't think any SLAC can offer enough merit aid to compete with in-state tuition. My kids are B+ students, so they aren't going to get huge merit offers either.

You do know that there are some SLACS that are state schools?

[Anonymous]

OP -- I always tell people if they don't get into a top Ivy then go public. I think they are awful socially for people who don't like fraternities, football, etc. but they do give you the needed piece of paper for graduation. I was a commuter at a public university and it sucked. But, that is all I could afford. My husband and I saved a lot of money so our kid would have the choice to go to a top Ivy and she did.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
There's a maturity angle too. I went to a big state U and an elite (Think Cal Tech or MIT) PhD program. I absolutely without a doubt would have fallen to pieces as an 18 year old in either of those schools. Even though I had a great experience in college, big state schools aren't pressure cookers and there isn't that sense of intensity. I called my college experience very Montessori like. I did what I wanted when I wanted to with whom I wanted. I wasn't even aware of other people. Grad school. So different (and I taught undergrads where I saw the intensity).


I don't think CalTech or MIT is a possibility if that's what you did in college.

I have a PhD from Cal-Tech in Engineering. I went to a big state school and did all of this and let me say having the time to pace myself, build a solid interest in research (instead of a frantic search for the best of the best to mentor me) and being in a honors program did me wonders and laid the path to my success. So, yes. We exist. And we taught your kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
There's a maturity angle too. I went to a big state U and an elite (Think Cal Tech or MIT) PhD program. I absolutely without a doubt would have fallen to pieces as an 18 year old in either of those schools. Even though I had a great experience in college, big state schools aren't pressure cookers and there isn't that sense of intensity. I called my college experience very Montessori like. I did what I wanted when I wanted to with whom I wanted. I wasn't even aware of other people. Grad school. So different (and I taught undergrads where I saw the intensity).


I don't think CalTech or MIT is a possibility if that's what you did in college.

I have a PhD from Cal-Tech in Engineering. I went to a big state school and did all of this and let me say having the time to pace myself, build a solid interest in research (instead of a frantic search for the best of the best to mentor me) and being in a honors program did me wonders and laid the path to my success. So, yes. We exist. And we taught your kids.

Yeah. I got one too. We should catch up.

[Anonymous]

OP -- I always tell people if they don't get into a top Ivy then go public. I think they are awful socially for people who don't like fraternities, football, etc. but they do give you the needed piece of paper for graduation. I was a commuter at a public university and it sucked. But, that is all I could afford. My husband and I saved a lot of money so our kid would have the choice to go to a top Ivy and she did.

There are a lot of terrific state universities--and they don't have to be the flagship ones.

[Anonymous]

Oh great pp. did you live in San Marino or Pasadena?