Another wasted day of school at MCPS

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My MCPS eighth grader is going to private high school next year. He has been a solid A in English every year, every quarter. But we still find his writing ability very mediocre. We worry about his ability to succeed in this new school and have hired a tutor to help him improve over the summer. It is really pathetic and we wish we had pulled him out of public sooner. The expectations in English vs. math are so lopsided.

We moved our daughter to private after 5th grade and she really struggled with writing, speech and grammar the first two years. It really showed how little they write in public school as well as present topics, debate and talk in front of a room. I think it comes down to room size and the number of papers a teacher can read. Still never understood wy grammar was never presented either but in her private, they were well ahead. Getting a tutor is a good thing. Hoping to move my youngest out of public by 3rd for the same reasons.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I was diagramming sentences in 4th grade. They don't even start grammar until middle here. It is a very strange slow mindless curriculum. And I agree with a PP. Most kids suck at writing. They hardly offer anything with critical thinking and process. And don't get me started on the severe lack of science in ES

I don't know what you mean by "start grammar". My kids were learning parts of speech in kindergarten or first grade. They also did "Daily Oral Language" in 1-3, which involves correcting sentences with incorrect punctuation and/or non-standard English, which I actually could have done without.

Also, there is a lot more writing and presenting under Curriculum 2.0, and I think that's a good thing.

Diagramming sentences can be fun, if you're somebody who likes diagramming sentences, but I think that there are more useful things to learn in school. And as far as I know, the idea of diagramming sentences is a purely American thing. Nobody else did/does it. Why?

http://www.npr.org/blogs/ed/2014/08/22/341898975/a-picture-of-language-the-fading-art-of-diagramming-sentences

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was diagramming sentences in 4th grade. They don't even start grammar until middle here. It is a very strange slow mindless curriculum. And I agree with a PP. Most kids suck at writing. They hardly offer anything with critical thinking and process. And don't get me started on the severe lack of science in ES

I don't know what you mean by "start grammar". My kids were learning parts of speech in kindergarten or first grade. They also did "Daily Oral Language" in 1-3, which involves correcting sentences with incorrect punctuation and/or non-standard English, which I actually could have done without.

Also, there is a lot more writing and presenting under Curriculum 2.0, and I think that's a good thing.

Diagramming sentences can be fun, if you're somebody who likes diagramming sentences, but I think that there are more useful things to learn in school. And as far as I know, the idea of diagramming sentences is a purely American thing. Nobody else did/does it. Why?

http://www.npr.org/blogs/ed/2014/08/22/341898975/a-picture-of-language-the-fading-art-of-diagramming-sentences

There is something call sentence structure. Many (even graduates with advanced degrees) do not know how to properly structure a sentence with all kinds of grammatical errors littering their writing. This is where diagramming sentences can help someone understand proper sentence structure. However if you are an employer that doesn't care about such things, then you can hire the poor souls who never learned to write properly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was diagramming sentences in 4th grade. They don't even start grammar until middle here. It is a very strange slow mindless curriculum. And I agree with a PP. Most kids suck at writing. They hardly offer anything with critical thinking and process. And don't get me started on the severe lack of science in ES

I don't know what you mean by "start grammar". My kids were learning parts of speech in kindergarten or first grade. They also did "Daily Oral Language" in 1-3, which involves correcting sentences with incorrect punctuation and/or non-standard English, which I actually could have done without.

Also, there is a lot more writing and presenting under Curriculum 2.0, and I think that's a good thing.

Diagramming sentences can be fun, if you're somebody who likes diagramming sentences, but I think that there are more useful things to learn in school. And as far as I know, the idea of diagramming sentences is a purely American thing. Nobody else did/does it. Why?

http://www.npr.org/blogs/ed/2014/08/22/341898975/a-picture-of-language-the-fading-art-of-diagramming-sentences

There is something call sentence structure. Many (even graduates with advanced degrees) do not know how to properly structure a sentence with all kinds of grammatical errors littering their writing. This is where diagramming sentences can help someone understand proper sentence structure. However if you are an employer that doesn't care about such things, then you can hire the poor souls who never learned to write properly.

But it is possible to learn to write properly, and understand sentence structure, without knowing how to diagram a sentences. In fact, most of the world does it this way. Did you read the link?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was diagramming sentences in 4th grade. They don't even start grammar until middle here. It is a very strange slow mindless curriculum. And I agree with a PP. Most kids suck at writing. They hardly offer anything with critical thinking and process. And don't get me started on the severe lack of science in ES

I don't know what you mean by "start grammar". My kids were learning parts of speech in kindergarten or first grade. They also did "Daily Oral Language" in 1-3, which involves correcting sentences with incorrect punctuation and/or non-standard English, which I actually could have done without.

Also, there is a lot more writing and presenting under Curriculum 2.0, and I think that's a good thing.

Diagramming sentences can be fun, if you're somebody who likes diagramming sentences, but I think that there are more useful things to learn in school. And as far as I know, the idea of diagramming sentences is a purely American thing. Nobody else did/does it. Why?

http://www.npr.org/blogs/ed/2014/08/22/341898975/a-picture-of-language-the-fading-art-of-diagramming-sentences

There is something call sentence structure. Many (even graduates with advanced degrees) do not know how to properly structure a sentence with all kinds of grammatical errors littering their writing. This is where diagramming sentences can help someone understand proper sentence structure. However if you are an employer that doesn't care about such things, then you can hire the poor souls who never learned to write properly.

But it is possible to learn to write properly, and understand sentence structure, without knowing how to diagram a sentences. In fact, most of the world does it this way. Did you read the link?

Yes, of course it is possible to write properly (for some), but I expect if kids went through this exercise at some point of their education, they would be less likely to make subtle and glaring grammatical errors while writing complex material. My DH works in consulting and has hired kids with advanced ivy league degrees. They clearly understand content, but cannot write about it in a manner that is grammatically correct on a consistent basis. Such poor work should never be put in front of a client. DH, who is a partner in the firm (and was taught how to diagram sentences as a child), is making grammatical corrections on their papers. I doubt these kids ever diagrammed sentences. It is unfortunate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Yes, of course it is possible to write properly (for some), but I expect if kids went through this exercise at some point of their education, they would be less likely to make subtle and glaring grammatical errors while writing complex material. My DH works in consulting and has hired kids with advanced ivy league degrees. They clearly understand content, but cannot write about it in a manner that is grammatically correct on a consistent basis. Such poor work should never be put in front of a client. DH, who is a partner in the firm (and was taught how to diagram sentences as a child), is making grammatical corrections on their papers. I doubt these kids ever diagrammed sentences. It is unfortunate.

Please read the link.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/ed/2014/08/22/341898975/a-picture-of-language-the-fading-art-of-diagramming-sentences

The US is the only country where diagramming sentences was ever a thing. And yet people in other countries manage to learn how to write.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Yes, of course it is possible to write properly (for some), but I expect if kids went through this exercise at some point of their education, they would be less likely to make subtle and glaring grammatical errors while writing complex material. My DH works in consulting and has hired kids with advanced ivy league degrees. They clearly understand content, but cannot write about it in a manner that is grammatically correct on a consistent basis. Such poor work should never be put in front of a client. DH, who is a partner in the firm (and was taught how to diagram sentences as a child), is making grammatical corrections on their papers. I doubt these kids ever diagrammed sentences. It is unfortunate.

Please read the link.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/ed/2014/08/22/341898975/a-picture-of-language-the-fading-art-of-diagramming-sentences

The US is the only country where diagramming sentences was ever a thing. And yet people in other countries manage to learn how to write.

I read the link. I don't put any credence in that article. Why are you so against it? Are you a MCPS teacher/administrator defending your pathetic curriculum?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I read the link. I don't put any credence in that article. Why are you so against it? Are you a MCPS teacher/administrator defending your pathetic curriculum?

You don't? Why not? What is incorrect in the article? What do you know that the people in the link don't know?

(As always, I'm impressed that it's impossible to post something that doesn't criticize MCPS without being accused of being an MCPS teacher/administrator.)

[Anonymous]

I did sentence diagramming in jr high (circa 1980). I don't think it has anything to do with how I write today. I think lots of reading just makes things intuitive. I just know when something sounds wrong..though I can not explain the technical reasons why.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Yes, of course it is possible to write properly (for some), but I expect if kids went through this exercise at some point of their education, they would be less likely to make subtle and glaring grammatical errors while writing complex material. My DH works in consulting and has hired kids with advanced ivy league degrees. They clearly understand content, but cannot write about it in a manner that is grammatically correct on a consistent basis. Such poor work should never be put in front of a client. DH, who is a partner in the firm (and was taught how to diagram sentences as a child), is making grammatical corrections on their papers. I doubt these kids ever diagrammed sentences. It is unfortunate.

Please read the link.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/ed/2014/08/22/341898975/a-picture-of-language-the-fading-art-of-diagramming-sentences

The US is the only country where diagramming sentences was ever a thing. And yet people in other countries manage to learn how to write.

NP here. I never learned how to diagram a sentence. And yet I went to an Ivy, a top-10 law school, and a large part of my work involves writing. My middle schooler isn't learning it as far as I can tell, and that is fine with me. But my kid has been a voracious reader since three, so perhaps that is the key. Maybe if kids read more books and did less tweeting, they would be able to construct proper sentences.

[Anonymous]

Diagramming a sentence is not the only thing in grammar and my child has learned sentence structure without actual diagramming. But she did not learn it in public school. As a matter of fact, she only learned simple spelling there. Most of reading in ES was jut reading/comprehension. Never how to structure a sentence. Types of sentences, types of grammar like: action, linking, helping verbs (regular and irregular), adverbs, nouns, pronouns, adjectives, subjects, predicates, prepositions, conjunctions, etc... She also didn't get vocabulary words (defining a word, putting it correctly in a sentence and knowing the type of word it was) until private school too. The other thing I noticed was difference was actual writing. Knowing how to write a letter, how to start and end a paragraph, when to shift to a new paragraph. Conclusions of a short story, etc... I am telling you, she was absolutely behind after leaving public school. MCPS has too much focus on reading comprehension because they have to handle so many non-English students. Lots of busy work instead of teaching to the class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I did sentence diagramming in jr high (circa 1980). I don't think it has anything to do with how I write today. I think lots of reading just makes things intuitive. I just know when something sounds wrong..though I can not explain the technical reasons why.

Junior high school? That is really late. I remember doing it in 4/5th grade only.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Diagramming a sentence is not the only thing in grammar and my child has learned sentence structure without actual diagramming. But she did not learn it in public school. As a matter of fact, she only learned simple spelling there. Most of reading in ES was jut reading/comprehension. Never how to structure a sentence. Types of sentences, types of grammar like: action, linking, helping verbs (regular and irregular), adverbs, nouns, pronouns, adjectives, subjects, predicates, prepositions, conjunctions, etc... She also didn't get vocabulary words (defining a word, putting it correctly in a sentence and knowing the type of word it was) until private school too. The other thing I noticed was difference was actual writing. Knowing how to write a letter, how to start and end a paragraph, when to shift to a new paragraph. Conclusions of a short story, etc... I am telling you, she was absolutely behind after leaving public school. MCPS has too much focus on reading comprehension because they have to handle so many non-English students. Lots of busy work instead of teaching to the class.

That's interesting, because my kids in MCPS have had parts of speech, vocabulary, letter-writing, paragraph-writing, and short-story writing. What MCPS school was your daughter in, and when?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Yes, of course it is possible to write properly (for some), but I expect if kids went through this exercise at some point of their education, they would be less likely to make subtle and glaring grammatical errors while writing complex material. My DH works in consulting and has hired kids with advanced ivy league degrees. They clearly understand content, but cannot write about it in a manner that is grammatically correct on a consistent basis. Such poor work should never be put in front of a client. DH, who is a partner in the firm (and was taught how to diagram sentences as a child), is making grammatical corrections on their papers. I doubt these kids ever diagrammed sentences. It is unfortunate.

Please read the link.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/ed/2014/08/22/341898975/a-picture-of-language-the-fading-art-of-diagramming-sentences

The US is the only country where diagramming sentences was ever a thing. And yet people in other countries manage to learn how to write.

NP here. I never learned how to diagram a sentence. And yet I went to an Ivy, a top-10 law school, and a large part of my work involves writing. My middle schooler isn't learning it as far as I can tell, and that is fine with me. But my kid has been a voracious reader since three, so perhaps that is the key. Maybe if kids read more books and did less tweeting, they would be able to construct proper sentences.

We are talking about elementary school grammar and the lack of it. Why would elementary school kids text? And just because you can read a book does not mean you can write and articulate well. Reading helps some but they don't go hand in hand. The other thing with writing is having to go in front of class and present your writing. That doesn't happen anymore either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

We are talking about elementary school grammar and the lack of it. Why would elementary school kids text? And just because you can read a book does not mean you can write and articulate well. Reading helps some but they don't go hand in hand. The other thing with writing is having to go in front of class and present your writing. That doesn't happen anymore either.

My kids in MCPS did/do it.