I'm coming to terms with the possibility that I'm an atheist....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm sure it's a tough journey, OP, but you'll come through it more peaceful and less fearful. I see life so much more clearly and it is so much more beautiful than I could've imagined when I believed in god. And as horrifying as life on earth can be, it feels better not to believe atrocities are god's will. That would be terrifying.

Who believes that? That is certainly not Christian teaching.

Whatever happens is "God's will" right? The good stuff, the bad stuff -- it's all from God - if you believe in him

No that is not right at all. Where did you ever get such a mixed up view of religious teachings? Gods will is perfect and all good

[Anonymous]

My understanding of "God's will" vs "bad things" is that God gave us free will even though, in His omniscience he knew all the bad things that would come from it, because He knew it was better for us (all of humanity) to endure these bad things than to be puppets.

Our free will allows us to make choices. He knows what choices we will make because the past and the future are all one to Him, but they are our choices.

For the record, I'm an atheist (NP), but I try to understand how an intelligent believer would make sense of the issue of free will vs predetermination.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My understanding of "God's will" vs "bad things" is that God gave us free will even though, in His omniscience he knew all the bad things that would come from it, because He knew it was better for us (all of humanity) to endure these bad things than to be puppets.

Our free will allows us to make choices. He knows what choices we will make because the past and the future are all one to Him, but they are our choices.

For the record, I'm an atheist (NP), but I try to understand how an intelligent believer would make sense of the issue of free will vs predetermination.

There is free will and then there is God's will - two different things, both biblical concepts which I do not pretend to understand in any depth, except to know they are not the same thing. It seems that NP atheist directly above is conflating them

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm sure it's a tough journey, OP, but you'll come through it more peaceful and less fearful. I see life so much more clearly and it is so much more beautiful than I could've imagined when I believed in god. And as horrifying as life on earth can be, it feels better not to believe atrocities are god's will. That would be terrifying.

Who believes that? That is certainly not Christian teaching.

Whatever happens is "God's will" right? The good stuff, the bad stuff -- it's all from God - if you believe in him

To a Christian, it's God's will. Even "act of God" is a legal term, which is ridiculous.

So if God wills a tornado, the only "free will" we have is to lock ourselves up or try to outrun it.

Isn't that a Christian's line of thinking?

And if little Chuckie is swept away in a tsunami, it's still God's will.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm sure it's a tough journey, OP, but you'll come through it more peaceful and less fearful. I see life so much more clearly and it is so much more beautiful than I could've imagined when I believed in god. And as horrifying as life on earth can be, it feels better not to believe atrocities are god's will. That would be terrifying.

Who believes that? That is certainly not Christian teaching.

Hm, okay maybe god doesn't will terrible things, but the fact that there's some benevolent, omnipotent power out there that allows them to happen makes god actually quite horrible in my mind.

The whole argument sounds ridiculous to me anyway, as does the concept of god as humans basically understand it. The atheists in my life are better people than the christians I know.

[Anonymous]

I think that atheism is just part of growing up. Of course, there is an empty feeling when you accept there is no Santa Claus or Tooth Fairy, but you move on. It's difficult to be an adult and know that you are responsible for your planet. To accept that there is no final justice, just the justice of your laws. To accept that, in the end, if you want the world to be a better place you need to WORK on it, not PRAY for it.

Atheism is the result of realizing and accepting that the only magic in the world is that fact that over 4 billion years we are where we are. And the only hope is that we will continue to evolve as a species to a more just society for all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think that atheism is just part of growing up. Of course, there is an empty feeling when you accept there is no Santa Claus or Tooth Fairy, but you move on. It's difficult to be an adult and know that you are responsible for your planet. To accept that there is no final justice, just the justice of your laws. To accept that, in the end, if you want the world to be a better place you need to WORK on it, not PRAY for it.

Atheism is the result of realizing and accepting that the only magic in the world is that fact that over 4 billion years we are where we are. And the only hope is that we will continue to evolve as a species to a more just society for all.

We haven't evolved. Just look at patterns in history. We've simply become more efficient at murdering each other.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that atheism is just part of growing up. Of course, there is an empty feeling when you accept there is no Santa Claus or Tooth Fairy, but you move on. It's difficult to be an adult and know that you are responsible for your planet. To accept that there is no final justice, just the justice of your laws. To accept that, in the end, if you want the world to be a better place you need to WORK on it, not PRAY for it.

Atheism is the result of realizing and accepting that the only magic in the world is that fact that over 4 billion years we are where we are. And the only hope is that we will continue to evolve as a species to a more just society for all.

We haven't evolved. Just look at patterns in history. We've simply become more efficient at murdering each other.

We're more efficient at treating each other more compassionately too -- consider the end of slavery, the advent of minority rights, advances in medical science. We humans are a strange species, but overall, we are getting better, not worse

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm sure it's a tough journey, OP, but you'll come through it more peaceful and less fearful. I see life so much more clearly and it is so much more beautiful than I could've imagined when I believed in god. And as horrifying as life on earth can be, it feels better not to believe atrocities are god's will. That would be terrifying.

Who believes that? That is certainly not Christian teaching.

Hm, okay maybe god doesn't will terrible things, but the fact that there's some benevolent, omnipotent power out there that allows them to happen makes god actually quite horrible in my mind.

The whole argument sounds ridiculous to me anyway, as does the concept of god as humans basically understand it. The atheists in my life are better people than the christians I know.

THere's a line of thought that says God weeps when bad things happen -- which, to me is a cop out for someone who is supposed to be omnipotent and answers prayers and has set up a whole eternal heavenly kingdom for his creation. People give him credit for answering prayers but let him get by with weeping when the prayers aren't answered? or say it was his will and we'll understand later? (i.e. after we're dead -- very convenient). It's People making excuse for god.

[Anonymous]

Bad things happen because we live in a fallen world, and because each one of us gives in to our sinful impulses, some more than others. Christian teaching is that Christ came, died and was resurrected to give us a perfect future for eternity after the time when God will bring into judgment every deed that is committed on this earth. This eternal future is open to all who will accept Christ and put their hope in him. You can be sure that God will judge everything that is done, and that he is a God of justice. The mistake is in thinking that this world is all there is or ever will be and that people can get away with things.

Perhaps you can meditate on 2 Corinthians 4 and decide whether you will accept the Christian answer on suffering:

"But we have this treasure in jars of clay, to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us. We are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not driven to despair; persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed. ... So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self his being renewed day by day. For this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, as we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen. For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal."

[Anonymous]

To the OP, that empty feeling you have is the spirit God gave you that was made for a relationship with him. Please don't listen to all on this board who say it gets better with time. That feeling is a deadened spirit that atrophies without God. It might feel OK, but it is not OK. True freedom comes through the forgiveness of Christ and a relationship with him. I can tell you this from personal experience, of 40 years ignoring the things of God, and then the immense joy, peace and contentment, as well as sense of purpose, that God filled me with when I put my trust in Christ. I suspect you have "come to terms with the possibility" that you're an atheist because you have some questions about God that you find intractable. They are not intractable, but they appear so to an unbelieving heart. I have prayed that you will be able to find a kind and loving Christian person who will talk to you patiently about your thoughts and that God will help you with them. Jesus said all we need is faith the size of a mustard seed (meaning really small) to find him, which means you can even pray with just the slightest hope of their being a God if you are open to him revealing himself to you, and he will. God calls all of us to himself. Some ignore the call, and some heed it. Those who heed it will find how great he is. Please ask one of these people before you come to any more terms with disbelief. God bless.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think that atheism is just part of growing up. Of course, there is an empty feeling when you accept there is no Santa Claus or Tooth Fairy, but you move on. It's difficult to be an adult and know that you are responsible for your planet. To accept that there is no final justice, just the justice of your laws. To accept that, in the end, if you want the world to be a better place you need to WORK on it, not PRAY for it.

Atheism is the result of realizing and accepting that the only magic in the world is that fact that over 4 billion years we are where we are. And the only hope is that we will continue to evolve as a species to a more just society for all.

Actually, when I found out that there was no Santa Claus or Tooth Fairy, I was rather happy to find out that it was in fact my parents, who loved me. Knowing the truth was better, and knowing the truth that there is a God who loves me, too, is better also.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I'm far from scared, bible thumper.

I've had 12 years of Catholic education (aka brainwashing). Even then, as we were forced to attend mass and chant in unison, most of us simply went through the motions. If you really STOP and think about your actions in church and what you say again and again b/c it's all so ritualistic, you'll see it amounts to nothing.

If anything, YOU should be scared for not having the ability to think for yourself.

Before Twitter and other such nonsense, there was word of mouth. from oral to written communication, genius

Now, having said that, if Jesus WERE the real deal, you'd still find different accounts of his miracles. Look at all of the primary accounts related to Greek theatre! And the masses were ALSO illiterate. Their brainwashing occurred through tragedies and traveling troupes - carrying the stories to the people.

So there's no comparison.

If Jesus were truly "not of this world," we'd have multiple accounts.

But sadly, your brain is hardwired to "believe."

I think we can all tell that your 12 years of Catholic education ruined your relationship with God. Sadly, that does happen, as the Catholic church -- like all churches -- is man made and thus has human flaws. But I do think the level of anger that you display here is indication that you are still struggling with this. And fortunately, God will never give up on you.

Nothing ruined my relationship with God. It was never there to begin with. I went through the motions b/c this was how I was raised. There's no time to reflect when you're a kid. You just follow along b/c it's what you know.

I'm not angry. I'm actually feeling free to be rid of the "duty" to this god. My Sundays are free. My kids don't have to go through indoctrination. My tithing has ended, and all money goes toward a college education.

There is no struggle.

Don't analyze me, PP, b/c it makes you feel as though your religion does indeed serve a purpose.

It doesn't.

It's a man-made way to control the masses.

If religion (and I suspect you mean Christianity in particular) is a man-made way to control the masses, why is it that totalitarian regimes -- those who truly control the masses -- always make one of the first orders of business banishing belief? It's because there is freedom in Christ, and they know it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I'm far from scared, bible thumper.

I've had 12 years of Catholic education (aka brainwashing). Even then, as we were forced to attend mass and chant in unison, most of us simply went through the motions. If you really STOP and think about your actions in church and what you say again and again b/c it's all so ritualistic, you'll see it amounts to nothing.

If anything, YOU should be scared for not having the ability to think for yourself.

Before Twitter and other such nonsense, there was word of mouth. from oral to written communication, genius

Now, having said that, if Jesus WERE the real deal, you'd still find different accounts of his miracles. Look at all of the primary accounts related to Greek theatre! And the masses were ALSO illiterate. Their brainwashing occurred through tragedies and traveling troupes - carrying the stories to the people.

So there's no comparison.

If Jesus were truly "not of this world," we'd have multiple accounts.

But sadly, your brain is hardwired to "believe."

I think we can all tell that your 12 years of Catholic education ruined your relationship with God. Sadly, that does happen, as the Catholic church -- like all churches -- is man made and thus has human flaws. But I do think the level of anger that you display here is indication that you are still struggling with this. And fortunately, God will never give up on you.

Nothing ruined my relationship with God. It was never there to begin with. I went through the motions b/c this was how I was raised. There's no time to reflect when you're a kid. You just follow along b/c it's what you know.

I'm not angry. I'm actually feeling free to be rid of the "duty" to this god. My Sundays are free. My kids don't have to go through indoctrination. My tithing has ended, and all money goes toward a college education.

There is no struggle.

Don't analyze me, PP, b/c it makes you feel as though your religion does indeed serve a purpose.

It doesn't.

It's a man-made way to control the masses.

If religion (and I suspect you mean Christianity in particular) is a man-made way to control the masses, why is it that totalitarian regimes -- those who truly control the masses -- always make one of the first orders of business banishing belief? It's because there is freedom in Christ, and they know it.

In many countries, oppressive governments and religion go hand-in-hand. Where have you been?

[Anonymous]

[quote=Anonymous]To the OP, that empty feeling you have is the spirit God gave you that was made for a relationship with him. Please don't listen to all on this board who say it gets better with time. That feeling is a deadened spirit that atrophies without God. It might feel OK, but it is not OK. True freedom comes through the forgiveness of Christ and a relationship with him. I can tell you this from personal experience, of 40 years ignoring the things of God, and then the immense joy, peace and contentment, as well as sense of purpose, that God filled me with when I put my trust in Christ. I suspect you have "come to terms with the possibility" that you're an atheist because you have some questions about God that you find intractable. They are not intractable, but they appear so to an unbelieving heart. I have prayed that you will be able to find a kind and loving Christian person who will talk to you patiently about your thoughts and that God will help you with them. Jesus said all we need is faith the size of a mustard seed (meaning really small) to find him, which means you can even pray with just the slightest hope of their being a God if you are open to him revealing himself to you, and he will. God calls all of us to himself. Some ignore the call, and some heed it. Those who heed it will find how great he is. Please ask one of these people before you come to any more terms with disbelief. God bless.[/quote]

Not OP but I can tell you that I spent probably a good 4 years praying for my faith to strengthen, to not become an agnostic or atheist. And going to church well past the poInt of believing hoping for something to strike me and rejuvenate my faith. But all that praying did nothing as any belief I had slipped away bit by bit until I could no longer go to church without feeling like a complete hypocrite. And then I pretty much came to a sense of peace at being an agnostic who leans toward atheism, a state I've been in these last 15 or so years. Oh and when my kids were born I went back to church for a few years just in case, but nope, nothing there.