Which elite schools emphasize test scores?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

The schools out west won't be able to distinguish the top privates, from the lesser privates or top publics. To the average college counselor out West, Whitman looks the same or better than HOLTON, Sidwell or NCS.

I don't know that this is true. I went to one of those SLACs "out west" and while the bay area, Seattle, and the LA are were definitely overrepresented relative to an east coast SLAC, people were from all over the place. There were plenty of people from NYC, Chicago, Boston, DC, and other large non-west Coast cities. I grew up in the Chicago area and attended a well regarded suburban high school, and the admissions dean said that he was aware of my school, in part because there are several schools from each major metropolitan area that almost every year have several applicants and are known for having rigorous curriculums. It is a relatively small, privileged pool of people who have the financial means and academic preparation/guidance to apply to small private liberal arts schools all over the country. Of course, not everyone comes from that background, and I also had friends from college who came from working class backgrounds, or went to non top-notch schools, but I would say privilege is certainly over-represented. A far larger portion of people at any reasonably selective SLAC are going to come from top suburban districts, top magnets (especially NYC magnets like Styvusant and so on), top prep day schools (Dalton and the like at NYC, GDS or Sidwell in DC, University of Chicago lab in Chicago, etc.), and NE boarding schools (Choate, Exeter, etc.) than the general population (or even the population of a state school). The point is--they are pretty familiar with this relatively tiny pool of schools that continually have students applying year after year, especially when the school is located far away.

The world of people who attend small, well regarded SLACs and other private colleges (even "out west") is an insular bubble. For example, one of my best friends from college has a twin sister. My friend went to a SLAC on the west coast and her twin sister went to a SLAC on the east coast. Her sister dated a guy in high school who went at MIT. My best friend from high school went to MIT, and ended up dating my college friend's sister's ex. Also, she became really good friends with a high school friend of mine, who went to a different east coast SLAC through a mutual friend from high school. We're not even talking about ivy networks--just your average SLAC.

So if you're looking at Reed, Occidental, Pomona, Colorado College, or Claremont McKenna, and you think that college admissions people are oblivious to the reputations of Sidwell or Holton or whatever, think again. Same goes for Carleton, Oberlin, Macalester, and Kenyon. The landscape of high quality colleges and universities is not nearly as regional or provincial as people on DCUM seem to think.

This. Indeed, these colleges and universities have a much better idea of the relative quality of education at Sidwell or Holton than Sidwell/Holton parents do.

[Anonymous]

GPA is meaningless. That's not me saying that. That's the Dean of Admission at UVA. What they really like to know is class rank. If a student is getting significantly outperformed in high school, that student is clearly not top tier eligible.

Counselor letters seem to be a way to provide backdoor rank info for those high schools that do not provide it. Let the games begin.

And there is no doubt that certain colleges have a track record of taking more (or fewer kids) from particular high schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Experienced area reps know the schools in their area. But college admissions offices are seeing a "brain drain" as admission office personnel leave to go into private consulting and other areas. Just this year I've noted that the majority of DMV area reps are very inexperienced. Reps from distant schools are often given 5-8 states and there is no way they know the schools inside and out.

+1
True Story: An admissions rep from a prestigious California SLAC mistook “Georgetown Day School” for a school for disadvantaged DC youth and mentioned that she’d be attending the DC College Fair. It’s totally understandable given that her territory covered a bunch of states, but anyone who thinks remote schools will understand the rigor of the top DC private schools as well as the colleges in the NE and SE is kidding themselves. The further you get away from the DC area, the less impressive your private school becomes.

Of course, people choose their private school because they want what they believe is a better education for their children, not because they are seeking an advantage in admission to elite colleges, right?

LOL.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:GPA is meaningless. That's not me saying that. That's the Dean of Admission at UVA. What they really like to know is class rank. If a student is getting significantly outperformed in high school, that student is clearly not top tier eligible.

Counselor letters seem to be a way to provide backdoor rank info for those high schools that do not provide it. Let the games begin.

And there is no doubt that certain colleges have a track record of taking more (or fewer kids) from particular high schools.

If true, it would follow that the path to top tier eligibility would be finding the school with the least competitive student body so that you could reach the top rank most easily. It's not that simple.

Private schools in particular have a track record of feeding students to SLACs that know that school well. There are exceptions each year, but the year over year trends seldom change.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A friend just had his son accepted ED at Colorado College with a B- GPA and very high SAT scores. A school out west like that might be a good choice. I think it really depends on your high school. My son's private really does not award very many A's but seems to place kids very well despite nearly no 4.0s.

The schools out west won't be able to distinguish the top privates, from the lesser privates or top publics. To the average college counselor out West, Whitman looks the same or better than HOLTON, Sidwell or NCS.

The schools that most understand and appreciate the top private schools are the Eastern SLACS

Well, are you so sure there is really such a difference in the education at a "top private" from a "lesser private" in DC and that colleges -- even locally -- really think that? As I understand it, in what you call "a top private" many of the students are in very rigorous classes so those that do well are recognized as having done something special, as opposed to those that have not done as well. In a "lesser private," there are often different tracks of classes -- so those who do well in the AP or most accelerated classes may be seen as on the same footing as the kids in the "top private" for evaluating the rigor of the classes. The standardized tests play the role of equalizers -- my DC in our "lesser private" managed to get the same high scores on SAT IIs and AP exams that some -- but not most - of DC's friends got at what you may call "top privates" and will see them next fall in the same absurdly selective university. I guess for students who graduated a top private that would be called a "top university" - whereas for our DC that would be called a "lesser university" -- even though it is the exact same school.

I guess it just proves the old adage -- "less is more."

[Anonymous]

Poster about UVA looking at class rank primarily ... Then how do so many TJ kids get admitted? TJ doesn't compute class rank.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Poster about UVA looking at class rank primarily ... Then how do so many TJ kids get admitted? TJ doesn't compute class rank.

TJ (and most other HSs) does give GPAs. It's not hard for admissions to sort application files from highest to lowest.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:GPA is meaningless. That's not me saying that. That's the Dean of Admission at UVA. What they really like to know is class rank. If a student is getting significantly outperformed in high school, that student is clearly not top tier eligible.

Counselor letters seem to be a way to provide backdoor rank info for those high schools that do not provide it. Let the games begin.

And there is no doubt that certain colleges have a track record of taking more (or fewer kids) from particular high schools.

Actually what Dean J says is that GPA is meaningless as a comparison across students who are coming from different schools because of the different ways those are calculated. They don't say that GPA is meaningless and in fact I got the impression that they care quite a bit about GPA.

[Anonymous]

Actually what Dean J says is that GPA is meaningless as a comparison across students who are coming from different schools because of the different ways those are calculated. They don't say that GPA is meaningless and in fact I got the impression that they care quite a bit about GPA.

What standardized test scores do is they allow an imperfect but standardized way to compare preparedness from various schools with different grading systems. Since grade inflation is so rampant, a 3.3 from one school might be really good (B+ average) and another school might be considered awful. And then there are always those kids who go to underperforming schools out of lack of opportunity but are just as talented, motivated, and prepared as other students from more rigorous backgrounds--but their transcript might not be substantially different from someone who got As just because of the lack of competition. Once you get 30+ on the ACT, you are talking about the top 95% of scorers in the country--obviously these kids are prepared for a rigorous college. But if someone has a 4.0 and a 23, then perhaps it might flag grade inflation and lack of preparedness, or at least say something about the rigor of their high school program.

The same is true of graduate school. DH and his sisters all went to a regional state school for reasons of affordability. DH got a full ride--and probably would have been competitive elsewhere, but decided to go close to home--but got the most out of his experience taking a rigorous course load and being mentored by faculty. When he applied to graduate school, his GRE scores were completely in the range you would expect for someone applying to competitive graduate programs. His sister, however wanted to go to law school and was a sociology major with a 4.0. She literally failed (i.e. got a 120, the 0% percentile) the LSAT. You would think that an A student would have at least been able to hit the national average. This indicates something about the rigor of her program and her preparedness as a student.

[Anonymous]

Most (not necessarily all) competitive schools go through a rigorous calibration process when evaluating GPAs. This is, of course, for the obvious reason that different schools (regionally, public/private, IB, AP bump) use non-comparable methodologies and scales. Further, all high schools typically submit a School Profile through their counseling departments that provides key data on a typical graduating class (% attending 4yr college, distribution of grades given, number of accelerated courses offered, and occasionally board score distribution). So, even if a college on the west coast is less "familiar" with the reputations of our local schools, they do have data at their disposal to make rough comparisons. Grades in an absolute sense do matter - but class rank and a willingness to take challenging courses matter more.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Most (not necessarily all) competitive schools go through a rigorous calibration process when evaluating GPAs. This is, of course, for the obvious reason that different schools (regionally, public/private, IB, AP bump) use non-comparable methodologies and scales. Further, all high schools typically submit a School Profile through their counseling departments that provides key data on a typical graduating class (% attending 4yr college, distribution of grades given, number of accelerated courses offered, and occasionally board score distribution). So, even if a college on the west coast is less "familiar" with the reputations of our local schools, they do have data at their disposal to make rough comparisons. Grades in an absolute sense do matter - but class rank and a willingness to take challenging courses matter more.

The local private schools at the very top publish their school profile, but most shy away:

https://www.ncs.cathedral.org//ftpimages/59/download/NCS%20Academic%20Profile%202013-2014.pdf

http://www.stalbansschool.org/document.doc?id=1094

http://www.holton-arms.edu/uploaded/documents/admissions/school_profile_sy2014_a.pdf

[Anonymous]

These are great examples. My understanding is that even though not published publicly, the other schools share simpler versions with interested colleges.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:These are great examples. My understanding is that even though not published publicly, the other schools share simpler versions with interested colleges.

The school profile is part of the application package provided by the school with the counselor recommendation. That includes public schools. It was required for all the schools my DCs applied to.

[Anonymous]

OP, you don't say and I'd be curious to know if there is a pattern to your DD's B grades vs. A grades. If she had Bs in 9th and then kicked it up a notch as an upperclassman, i'd recommend a higher reach. Likewise if she earned a B in something like Differential Equations. If she earned As as an underclassman and her grades dropped as material got harder, then I'd look for a better fit school rather than just elite.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, you don't say and I'd be curious to know if there is a pattern to your DD's B grades vs. A grades. If she had Bs in 9th and then kicked it up a notch as an upperclassman, i'd recommend a higher reach. Likewise if she earned a B in something like Differential Equations. If she earned As as an underclassman and her grades dropped as material got harder, then I'd look for a better fit school rather than just elite.

Sound advice. Trend is very important.