Atlantic piece: "My Daughter's Homework is Killing Me"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not true. ^^ I find it very frustrating that whenever the subject of TOO MUCH HOMEWORK comes up, someone - usually a male voice who wasn't much help to his wife when the kids were growing up and now enjoys beating people up on the internet as a retirement hobby - makes this remarks about 'screens". Sorry, 18:36 is that is not your demographic. But it is a pattern and in so many cases it is simply not true. In our household we have rigid screens, phone, Iphone and computer rules. NO TV during the school week etc. Homework comes first. But the kids are still going to bed at midnight and getting up at 5:30 and it has nothing to do with screens or phones. Sorry 18:36 for the vent, but I'm tired of this prattle every time a serious poster compalins about too much homework. Too much homework has ruined our homelife, our kids' lives, and our ability to enjoy and do a lot of activities.

Well, you got my demographic wrong -- woman, of childbearing years, lol, AND I'm in the workforce! And sorry, your rhetoric -- homework that has ruined your homelife and kids' lives?! -- sounds, shall we say, overheated.

On a more serious note, if your children are getting only 5.5 hours of sleep a night they are either (a) over-committed to activities; (b) in a school that is too hard for them and you should re-assess; and/or (c) are putting too much pressure on themselves to be perfect, whether or not you are putting on such pressure.

This.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Assigning excessive homework is a crutch for poor teachers.

I don't know that this is true at all. I think the problem is the expectations of parents, largely. I'm young for this forum--in my 20s and I went to high school in the early 2000s. I had the kind of stressful experience people are describing--played a sport, played an instrument at a high level, and took a lot of honors and AP classes. For my classes that were honors and AP, what was expected was an average of one hour out of class per class period. I had 5 academic subjects (science, math, English, foreign language, and social studies), thus an average of five hours of homework. But this is average--I had a lot of assignments that were long term, like writing a paper--and remember that for those you can work over the weekend. Some days a class would have more homework, some days less.

Is this healthy? Well I don't know that it is healthy to subject kids to the kind of stresses that parents subject them to these days, with trying to get into THE BEST COLLEGE OR ELSE. But I also think that it is nearly impossible to teach a lot of subjects at a high level without investment after the school day is over, and this has nothing to do with poor teaching. Learning math requires practice. Teaching a rigorous English class is impossible without assigning reading. Writing assignments not something that can be done during the class time, and good social studies classes involve research papers. In the higher levels of foreign language, when you start writing and reading assignments (but you also need to spend time just memorizing vocabulary and grammar for fluency), it is impossible to do that during class time. Lab write ups? You barely have time to teach a good lab during the time allotted in a class period, so how are you going to have kids write them up AND do the lab in class? Especially if you have questions that require them to link up the lab to concepts?

Perhaps homework is a crutch for poor teachers in elementary school, but by middle and high school, you're getting into areas that simply cannot be taught entirely during the class day if you want a rigorous education. So something has to give--either the depth of the classes (less writing intensive classes, covering less material, less accelerated math sequence, less complex lab write ups, etc.), the intensity of extracurriculars, or sleep. Or you could not take APs and honors classes. Choose your poison.

I agree that true mastery of any subject requires plenty of long hours, but the question is this: why must kids 14-18 master so many subjects in such a short time? Do they "need" all these subjects at such a high level? Will they remember any of it a few years later? Are they learning to learn, or are they learning to memorize? Do they get to college as eager, curious learners, or are they simply burnt out and exhausted by age 19, and determined to do the bare minimum?

I'm all in favor of learning and mastery (I'm a university professor with nine post-secondary Ivy League years under my belt), and I never, ever had this kind of homework when I was in high school. Instead, I talked to my friends and my parents, and I read for pleasure. I look now at the undergraduate students I teach (at a very highly ranked college), and frankly they aren't terribly impressive: they're consumeristic, careerist and often seem amazingly uninterested in ideas, as opposed to grades. There are exceptions, but they're rare. I often feel-- as a parent and a professor-- that parents and kids have been sold a bill of goods by American high schools. All that homework and achievement is not worth much if it only produces stressed out, high-achieving automatons. And will they be happier or more successful than my generation? I can't imagine that the answer is yes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not true. ^^ I find it very frustrating that whenever the subject of TOO MUCH HOMEWORK comes up, someone - usually a male voice who wasn't much help to his wife when the kids were growing up and now enjoys beating people up on the internet as a retirement hobby - makes this remarks about 'screens". Sorry, 18:36 is that is not your demographic. But it is a pattern and in so many cases it is simply not true. In our household we have rigid screens, phone, Iphone and computer rules. NO TV during the school week etc. Homework comes first. But the kids are still going to bed at midnight and getting up at 5:30 and it has nothing to do with screens or phones. Sorry 18:36 for the vent, but I'm tired of this prattle every time a serious poster compalins about too much homework. Too much homework has ruined our homelife, our kids' lives, and our ability to enjoy and do a lot of activities.

Well, you got my demographic wrong -- woman, of childbearing years, lol, AND I'm in the workforce! And sorry, your rhetoric -- homework that has ruined your homelife and kids' lives?! -- sounds, shall we say, overheated.

On a more serious note, if your children are getting only 5.5 hours of sleep a night they are either (a) over-committed to activities; (b) in a school that is too hard for them and you should re-assess; and/or (c) are putting too much pressure on themselves to be perfect, whether or not you are putting on such pressure.

This.

If you had bothered to read before posting you would know this has already been answered and addressed at 00:58.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Does no one have study hall any longer in school?

No

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Every DC area kid I know has a phone and uses it a lot -- I don't believe that the increased use of phones/computers for entertainment is not a part of this. Fits in with the pattern of affluent parents assuming nothing is ever attributable to their children, though.

Mine don't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Assigning excessive homework is a crutch for poor teachers.

I don't know that this is true at all. I think the problem is the expectations of parents, largely. I'm young for this forum--in my 20s and I went to high school in the early 2000s. I had the kind of stressful experience people are describing--played a sport, played an instrument at a high level, and took a lot of honors and AP classes. For my classes that were honors and AP, what was expected was an average of one hour out of class per class period. I had 5 academic subjects (science, math, English, foreign language, and social studies), thus an average of five hours of homework. But this is average--I had a lot of assignments that were long term, like writing a paper--and remember that for those you can work over the weekend. Some days a class would have more homework, some days less.

Is this healthy? Well I don't know that it is healthy to subject kids to the kind of stresses that parents subject them to these days, with trying to get into THE BEST COLLEGE OR ELSE. But I also think that it is nearly impossible to teach a lot of subjects at a high level without investment after the school day is over, and this has nothing to do with poor teaching. Learning math requires practice. Teaching a rigorous English class is impossible without assigning reading. Writing assignments not something that can be done during the class time, and good social studies classes involve research papers. In the higher levels of foreign language, when you start writing and reading assignments (but you also need to spend time just memorizing vocabulary and grammar for fluency), it is impossible to do that during class time. Lab write ups? You barely have time to teach a good lab during the time allotted in a class period, so how are you going to have kids write them up AND do the lab in class? Especially if you have questions that require them to link up the lab to concepts?

Perhaps homework is a crutch for poor teachers in elementary school, but by middle and high school, you're getting into areas that simply cannot be taught entirely during the class day if you want a rigorous education. So something has to give--either the depth of the classes (less writing intensive classes, covering less material, less accelerated math sequence, less complex lab write ups, etc.), the intensity of extracurriculars, or sleep. Or you could not take APs and honors classes. Choose your poison.

I agree that true mastery of any subject requires plenty of long hours, but the question is this: why must kids 14-18 master so many subjects in such a short time? Do they "need" all these subjects at such a high level? Will they remember any of it a few years later? Are they learning to learn, or are they learning to memorize? Do they get to college as eager, curious learners, or are they simply burnt out and exhausted by age 19, and determined to do the bare minimum?

I'm all in favor of learning and mastery (I'm a university professor with nine post-secondary Ivy League years under my belt), and I never, ever had this kind of homework when I was in high school. Instead, I talked to my friends and my parents, and I read for pleasure. I look now at the undergraduate students I teach (at a very highly ranked college), and frankly they aren't terribly impressive: they're consumeristic, careerist and often seem amazingly uninterested in ideas, as opposed to grades. There are exceptions, but they're rare. I often feel-- as a parent and a professor-- that parents and kids have been sold a bill of goods by American high schools. All that homework and achievement is not worth much if it only produces stressed out, high-achieving automatons. And will they be happier or more successful than my generation? I can't imagine that the answer is yes.

You are probably correct in your assessment of your students at your "very highly ranked college". However, placing the blame on high schools is misdirected. The reason high school students are so grade-obsessed and "careerist" is becasue your "highly ranked college" will not even look at their application if they don't have high grades in rigorous courses, multiple AP's, outside interests, etc. The university admissions offices make the rules of this game, and unless they change them, the drive for admittance to top schools will remain. The answer lies in your Ivory Tower, Professor, not in the high schools. High school teachers would like to get rid of AP exams, SAT II's. They would love to have their students spend their time reading for pleasure rather than going to tedious SAT prep courses. I hope you will work to change this, since you do some genuinely concerned.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:But be honest. Aren't many of you lamenting the loss of free time for exploration, family, chores, etc also the same ones who will be wringing your hands if your kids don't have the grades to get into Harvard or Williams?

Maybe you can't have it both ways. My kid isn't getting into Harvard or Williams. But he'll get into a second tier college and likely do very well for himself. And in the meantime, he has time to read, researching things that interest him, help out around the house, AND he gets a solid 9 hours of sleep a night. I honestly don't think Harvard could serve him better, but obviously YMMV.

No. I think the parents trying to get eir kids into an Ivy think it is a good amount of homework. I suspect their lives are out of balance too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But be honest. Aren't many of you lamenting the loss of free time for exploration, family, chores, etc also the same ones who will be wringing your hands if your kids don't have the grades to get into Harvard or Williams?

Maybe you can't have it both ways. My kid isn't getting into Harvard or Williams. But he'll get into a second tier college and likely do very well for himself. And in the meantime, he has time to read, researching things that interest him, help out around the house, AND he gets a solid 9 hours of sleep a night. I honestly don't think Harvard could serve him better, but obviously YMMV.

No. I think the parents trying to get eir kids into an Ivy think it is a good amount of homework. I suspect their lives are out of balance too.

Exactly. It is a choice. Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford accept fewer than 6 % of their applicants. Of those, 3 % have some sort of " Golden Ticket" ( they are athletes, talented musicians, wealthy legacies, etc). That leaves about 3% of spots for the general applicants. Therefore, only the truly brilliant kids will get those spots. Lots of straight A, great kids will be denied. Therefore, this dream of the Ivies is unrealistic for most people. They should calm down and set their sites on more realistic schools for their kids. 50 years ago, practically the only people who went to these schools were white males from one of the top prep schools. Now, people form all over the world are applying. Unless you have a golden ticket or your kid is truly exceptional ( and they likely are not), give up the dream and let your kids enjoy high school a little.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think that 3 to 5 hours of homework a night is ridiculous, but I also wonder about time management in this family. To whine that your kid went to bed at 11:40 "because" they had 3 hours of homework, makes me wonder why they couldn't start HW until 8:40.

I have a kid who plays an intense sport, about 15 hours a week, and he knows that some days he needs to squeeze in some work at lunch, or read a few pages on the bus coming home. If he waited until 8:00 to crack a book he'd never get through his homework.

And what are kids supposed to do who have to work part-time jobs?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Whats interesting is the overwhelming number of posts here saying there's too much homework, which is pretty much what I hear from all parents. So why is this happening? Who is supporting it?

There are some parents on this thread that don't think 3 hours is too much and they just think kids are busy on social media, exercise too much and spend too much time volunteering and that is the problem.

If they would just stop doing sports and helping others the hw problem will go away.

I don't think three hours of homework is too much for a high school student. If an elementary school student is getting that much homework, I would agree.

The research shows American students are spending more screen time and doing less work than ever before (the numbers on college students are staggering). I am sympathetic to the poster whose kids are in public school and have homework in seven courses that is limiting them to an unhealthy amount of sleep -- that sounds terrible and perhaps is linked to the NCLB driven test frenzy?

However, as someone with kids in independent schools who taught in independent schools at the high school level a generation ago, I can tell you that the amount of homework does not appear to have increased. Same general amount of reading assigned in the English classes (and if anything, shorter English papers), same general amount of math homework, etc. What has increased is outside sports commitment (an athletic kid used to have his/her school team, now there is a club apparatus for almost all sports than can take up a tremendous amount of time, including on weekends); an increased anxiety about college admissions that appears to leave teenagers and parents thinking they need to be experts in a multiplicity of areas; and, yes, "screen time" -- just think honestly about how distracting the internet/cellphone/computer is for grown adults and then think back to what you would have done as a teenager with that magical device, the cell phone.

High school students who are able to use their time efficiently (and I'm not judging, I was a bit of a social gabber in high school myself) can generally knock off an hour or more of work during the school day and/or before school sports begin, and if they work efficiently at home and use the weekend to do some work (reading ahead for English and history, for example), there's no need for staying up to ungodly hours. But yeah, high school kids are not always efficient, and they want to hang out or get a snack before practice, and they want to chill out on the weekend because they are tired out from an admittedly fast-paced week. But, at least in the independent school world (can't speak to kids in public school carrying seven homework-assigning classes), to my relatively experienced eye it's not the schools that have changed in terms of homeowrk, it's the additional demands and distractions that have been added to the kids' lives.

But at least when I attended back in the 90s, the schools pressured the kids to do these things for college applications. I was an editor of my paper, did several arts activities, community service, debate club, a musical instrument, etc, and my college counselor to,d me I needed more activities! Even though I had something every single day! Absurd.

We're you satisfied with where you got into college?

[Anonymous]

*were.
I'm getting pretty sick of autocorrect!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that 3 to 5 hours of homework a night is ridiculous, but I also wonder about time management in this family. To whine that your kid went to bed at 11:40 "because" they had 3 hours of homework, makes me wonder why they couldn't start HW until 8:40.

I have a kid who plays an intense sport, about 15 hours a week, and he knows that some days he needs to squeeze in some work at lunch, or read a few pages on the bus coming home. If he waited until 8:00 to crack a book he'd never get through his homework.

And what are kids supposed to do who have to work part-time jobs?

They will have to make choices -- such as not playing a sport (not every school requires sports), and/or picking some extra-curriculars that don't conflict with the part-time job.

[Anonymous]

I am a teacher and I hate excessive homework as well. I am a firm believer that downtime, activities, time with friend and family and a good nights sleep are going to go much farther in supporting a teen's overall well-being and academic outcomes then reading an extra 100 pages of Angela's Ashes, doing math worksheets, and reading science textbooks.

I don't think all homework is bad and it has a place. Most project work needs extra time that we don't have in class, some kids need extra practice in certain areas, studying for tests is going to have to happen outside of class, and there are occasionally things that just need to be memorized or reinforced and that has to happen out side of class time too. Additionally as much as many of you are against extra homework there is pressure from some parents to assign more as they believe that hours of homework develops work ethic and augments learning and that those extra hours are going to be what helps their child get ahead in life. There is also pressure from within to cover excessive amounts of curriculum and that homework can be used to meet that outcome. I disagree with this as new learning or material as homework is extremely frustrating for many students.

The reality is that the kids who are going to get into Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford are typically very self motivated and are going to do hours a night to make sure they fully understand every concept and perfect every project even if it isn't assigned. They are pretty self-driven.

For many other kids, hours of work at night is a frustration and isn't leading to any greater good. And for some kids it is actually very detrimental to their overall well-being and to the family as a whole.

Trying to balance all of these issues to know what to assign and how much is a daily struggle.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Every DC area kid I know has a phone and uses it a lot -- I don't believe that the increased use of phones/computers for entertainment is not a part of this. Fits in with the pattern of affluent parents assuming nothing is ever attributable to their children, though.

Mine don't.

Do they use the computer doing homework? Have access to anything with an internet connection? If so, they are probably being distracted by Facebook, Twitter, Vine -- at least to a degree. The 2 minute breaks add up.

If they are screen free during homework time that's great -- it makes a huge difference not just to getting homework done but to being able to go to sleep more easily.

[Anonymous]

most kids are checking thier I-phones every 15 minutes for text messages. I adds up - alot.