Positive Momentum in Alexandria?

[Anonymous]

Seriously? The dual immersion program is a joke! My husband and I do speak Spanish and laugh about the program. It is absolutely not the way to learn Spanish! Better to put your kid in one of the better ACPS schools, Saturday school for Spanish, or move to a district that is serious about language learning.

And to respond to the orignial question--what you, OP see as positives, I see as negatives, which is why our house is on the market and we will be moving very soon.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Seriously? The dual immersion program is a joke! My husband and I do speak Spanish and laugh about the program. It is absolutely not the way to learn Spanish! Better to put your kid in one of the better ACPS schools, Saturday school for Spanish, or move to a district that is serious about language learning.

And to respond to the orignial question--what you, OP see as positives, I see as negatives, which is why our house is on the market and we will be moving very soon.

So, because you and your DH speak Spanish, you feel qualified to offer an opinion on dual immersion? Guess what? My DH is a native Spanish speaker, I'm multi-lingual and we think dual immersion is a great way to learn Spanish - our three kids are in the program. The best thing is that we don't have to waste our Saturdays on Spanish school. I'm glad I don't have to worry about my kids being in class with yours.

[Anonymous]

"My DH is a native Spanish speaker, I'm multi-lingual" ergo you are an authority? Guess what everyone gets to voice their opinion here Franco.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Seriously? The dual immersion program is a joke! My husband and I do speak Spanish and laugh about the program. It is absolutely not the way to learn Spanish! Better to put your kid in one of the better ACPS schools, Saturday school for Spanish, or move to a district that is serious about language learning.

And to respond to the orignial question--what you, OP see as positives, I see as negatives, which is why our house is on the market and we will be moving very soon.

So, because you and your DH speak Spanish, you feel qualified to offer an opinion on dual immersion? Guess what? My DH is a native Spanish speaker, I'm multi-lingual and we think dual immersion is a great way to learn Spanish - our three kids are in the program. The best thing is that we don't have to waste our Saturdays on Spanish school. I'm glad I don't have to worry about my kids being in class with yours.

So, basically, you're another one of these defensive ACPS parents who feel the need to lash out with bromides like "I'm glad I don't know you" to cover up your rampant insecurities about your sucky situation?

[Anonymous]

The dual immersion program is a joke! My husband and I do speak Spanish and laugh about the program. It is absolutely not the way to learn Spanish!

Ok, so you have stated your opinion but not explained the basis for it, which is not very helpful to those considering the program. Can you provide further explanation as to why you feel it is not an effective program?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I really don't understand the incessant criticism of the Alexandria City public system.

We enrolled our child at two very well-known, and I think highly-regarded, private schools. We experienced invasive parents, truly weak academics, and Lord Of The Flies behavior even among the younger kids. We found private school heads to be behaviorally similar to legal recruiters.

We yanked our daughter out, in disgust, and sent her to an ACPS school (Charles Barrett) starting in third grade. It has been more wonderful than I imagined any school could be, especially once her very patient third grade teacher got her up to speed in math after very weak prior instruction. We know several private-school refugees in the ACPS system. We've toured GW, we know many GW parents and kids, and we've been to TC repeatedly. We know many recent grads, all of who have done genuinely well. The ACPS that has been described in these messages is completely unknown to us.

We've heard only a few real ACPS horror stories, and they were molehills compared to what we've directly observed at private schools. And the vast majority of the area private schools basically do not accommodate more academically advanced students.

Which private schools did your DC attend?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I really don't understand the incessant criticism of the Alexandria City public system.

We enrolled our child at two very well-known, and I think highly-regarded, private schools. We experienced invasive parents, truly weak academics, and Lord Of The Flies behavior even among the younger kids. We found private school heads to be behaviorally similar to legal recruiters.

We yanked our daughter out, in disgust, and sent her to an ACPS school (Charles Barrett) starting in third grade. It has been more wonderful than I imagined any school could be, especially once her very patient third grade teacher got her up to speed in math after very weak prior instruction. We know several private-school refugees in the ACPS system. We've toured GW, we know many GW parents and kids, and we've been to TC repeatedly. We know many recent grads, all of who have done genuinely well. The ACPS that has been described in these messages is completely unknown to us.

We've heard only a few real ACPS horror stories, and they were molehills compared to what we've directly observed at private schools. And the vast majority of the area private schools basically do not accommodate more academically advanced students.

This says more about the poor quality of the privates in Alexandria than it does about ACPS, although I have def. heard good things about Barrett (which is the overflow school for Tucker and other schools that are getting too crowded now).

The issue in ACPS really isn't the elementaries anyway. It's the middle schools.

The most popular privates (SSSA, Alexandria Country Day, Burgundy Farms, Browne, Ireton, Blessed Sac, Grace Episcopal, etc.) generally are a notch or three below the quality of comparable privates in the DC area.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really don't understand the incessant criticism of the Alexandria City public system.

We enrolled our child at two very well-known, and I think highly-regarded, private schools. We experienced invasive parents, truly weak academics, and Lord Of The Flies behavior even among the younger kids. We found private school heads to be behaviorally similar to legal recruiters.

We yanked our daughter out, in disgust, and sent her to an ACPS school (Charles Barrett) starting in third grade. It has been more wonderful than I imagined any school could be, especially once her very patient third grade teacher got her up to speed in math after very weak prior instruction. We know several private-school refugees in the ACPS system. We've toured GW, we know many GW parents and kids, and we've been to TC repeatedly. We know many recent grads, all of who have done genuinely well. The ACPS that has been described in these messages is completely unknown to us.

We've heard only a few real ACPS horror stories, and they were molehills compared to what we've directly observed at private schools. And the vast majority of the area private schools basically do not accommodate more academically advanced students.

This says more about the poor quality of the privates in Alexandria than it does about ACPS, although I have def. heard good things about Barrett (which is the overflow school for Tucker and other schools that are getting too crowded now).

The issue in ACPS really isn't the elementaries anyway. It's the middle schools.

The most popular privates (SSSA, Alexandria Country Day, Burgundy Farms, Browne, Ireton, Blessed Sac, Grace Episcopal, etc.) generally are a notch or three below the quality of comparable privates in the DC area.

what evidence do you have to support this statement?

[Anonymous]

Just to elaborate on why I think dual immersion is a joke in Alexandria. Many of the teachers don't speak very good Spanish. I've spotted many errors in work brought home and I often hear that they just lapse into English or "Spanglish" to explain difficult concepts. Also, most children are lost and not comprehending by the time they get to 3rd or 4th grade, so they are learning neither the language or the subject matter. This seems to be lost on the schools, because the kids are still (barely) passing in the subject matter--they don't seem to think that dropping from an A student to a C student is worth investigating. So, these kids go on to middle school significantly behind their monolingual peers. And finally, where do they go with the dual immersion concept after elementary? Nowhere.

Obviously with bilingual or linguistically interested parents, the result can be different, but such children are clearly a very small minority within the program.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Just to elaborate on why I think dual immersion is a joke in Alexandria. Many of the teachers don't speak very good Spanish. I've spotted many errors in work brought home and I often hear that they just lapse into English or "Spanglish" to explain difficult concepts. Also, most children are lost and not comprehending by the time they get to 3rd or 4th grade, so they are learning neither the language or the subject matter. This seems to be lost on the schools, because the kids are still (barely) passing in the subject matter--they don't seem to think that dropping from an A student to a C student is worth investigating. So, these kids go on to middle school significantly behind their monolingual peers. And finally, where do they go with the dual immersion concept after elementary? Nowhere.

Obviously with bilingual or linguistically interested parents, the result can be different, but such children are clearly a very small minority within the program.

You're shortsighted and exaggerating. According to information found though links on ACPS site http://www.cal.org/twi/toolkit/PI/P_QA/parent_a2.htm, research indicates that by middle school native/non-native English speakers in two way immersion "scored at or well above grade level in both languages by middle school; and both groups performed at comparable or superior levels compared to same-language peers in other educational settings. On norm-referenced standardized tests of reading and math achievement in English, native English speakers outscored their English-only peers in English-only classrooms. English language learners who had learned English in a TWI program scored significantly higher than their English language learning peers who had studies in other kinds of programs in the state and also performed on a par with native English speaking students in English-only classrooms (Lindholm-Leary, 2005; Lindholm-Leary & Borsato, in press)."

If you're focused only on what your child can do in 3rd or 4th grade, immersion isn't for you. I also wasn't aware ACPS no longer provided foreign language instruction after 5th grade. When did that happen? But, if you think sending your kid to Spanish school on Saturdays rather than participating in an immersion classroom, good luck to you. That works better for all of us.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really don't understand the incessant criticism of the Alexandria City public system.

We enrolled our child at two very well-known, and I think highly-regarded, private schools. We experienced invasive parents, truly weak academics, and Lord Of The Flies behavior even among the younger kids. We found private school heads to be behaviorally similar to legal recruiters.

We yanked our daughter out, in disgust, and sent her to an ACPS school (Charles Barrett) starting in third grade. It has been more wonderful than I imagined any school could be, especially once her very patient third grade teacher got her up to speed in math after very weak prior instruction. We know several private-school refugees in the ACPS system. We've toured GW, we know many GW parents and kids, and we've been to TC repeatedly. We know many recent grads, all of who have done genuinely well. The ACPS that has been described in these messages is completely unknown to us.

We've heard only a few real ACPS horror stories, and they were molehills compared to what we've directly observed at private schools. And the vast majority of the area private schools basically do not accommodate more academically advanced students.

This says more about the poor quality of the privates in Alexandria than it does about ACPS, although I have def. heard good things about Barrett (which is the overflow school for Tucker and other schools that are getting too crowded now).

The issue in ACPS really isn't the elementaries anyway. It's the middle schools.

The most popular privates (SSSA, Alexandria Country Day, Burgundy Farms, Browne, Ireton, Blessed Sac, Grace Episcopal, etc.) generally are a notch or three below the quality of comparable privates in the DC area.

what evidence do you have to support this statement?

Purely anecdotal and based on perceptions. SSSA and Country Day aren't particularly selective. Burgundy Farms has a great experiential philosophy but is perceived to be academically week. The Catholics aren't particularly stellar. They're just fine, but nothing to write home about the way the more elite schools in this area are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just to elaborate on why I think dual immersion is a joke in Alexandria. Many of the teachers don't speak very good Spanish. I've spotted many errors in work brought home and I often hear that they just lapse into English or "Spanglish" to explain difficult concepts. Also, most children are lost and not comprehending by the time they get to 3rd or 4th grade, so they are learning neither the language or the subject matter. This seems to be lost on the schools, because the kids are still (barely) passing in the subject matter--they don't seem to think that dropping from an A student to a C student is worth investigating. So, these kids go on to middle school significantly behind their monolingual peers. And finally, where do they go with the dual immersion concept after elementary? Nowhere.

Obviously with bilingual or linguistically interested parents, the result can be different, but such children are clearly a very small minority within the program.

You're shortsighted and exaggerating. According to information found though links on ACPS site http://www.cal.org/twi/toolkit/PI/P_QA/parent_a2.htm, research indicates that by middle school native/non-native English speakers in two way immersion "scored at or well above grade level in both languages by middle school; and both groups performed at comparable or superior levels compared to same-language peers in other educational settings. On norm-referenced standardized tests of reading and math achievement in English, native English speakers outscored their English-only peers in English-only classrooms. English language learners who had learned English in a TWI program scored significantly higher than their English language learning peers who had studies in other kinds of programs in the state and also performed on a par with native English speaking students in English-only classrooms (Lindholm-Leary, 2005; Lindholm-Leary & Borsato, in press)."

If you're focused only on what your child can do in 3rd or 4th grade, immersion isn't for you. I also wasn't aware ACPS no longer provided foreign language instruction after 5th grade. When did that happen? But, if you think sending your kid to Spanish school on Saturdays rather than participating in an immersion classroom, good luck to you. That works better for all of us.

This is general research conducted years ago. It is not specific research based on outcomes of the Alexandria dual immersion programs.

Basically, the schools that house the programs have large parent population who simply don't care if their kid is in a special program and don't really see the advantages. You are talking about a large segment of the population who see going and staying in school as well as graduating from high school as a major life achievement not a necessary stepping stone to higher education, better career, higher income. Also, if the school serves a large immigrant population that is not Spanish speaking, then the kids are entering school as ELL learners to begin with. They need to get a grasp on English so I can see why a dual immersion program is not attractive to a family who has immigrated from Ethiopia for example.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really don't understand the incessant criticism of the Alexandria City public system.

We enrolled our child at two very well-known, and I think highly-regarded, private schools. We experienced invasive parents, truly weak academics, and Lord Of The Flies behavior even among the younger kids. We found private school heads to be behaviorally similar to legal recruiters.

We yanked our daughter out, in disgust, and sent her to an ACPS school (Charles Barrett) starting in third grade. It has been more wonderful than I imagined any school could be, especially once her very patient third grade teacher got her up to speed in math after very weak prior instruction. We know several private-school refugees in the ACPS system. We've toured GW, we know many GW parents and kids, and we've been to TC repeatedly. We know many recent grads, all of who have done genuinely well. The ACPS that has been described in these messages is completely unknown to us.

We've heard only a few real ACPS horror stories, and they were molehills compared to what we've directly observed at private schools. And the vast majority of the area private schools basically do not accommodate more academically advanced students.

This says more about the poor quality of the privates in Alexandria than it does about ACPS, although I have def. heard good things about Barrett (which is the overflow school for Tucker and other schools that are getting too crowded now).

The issue in ACPS really isn't the elementaries anyway. It's the middle schools.

The most popular privates (SSSA, Alexandria Country Day, Burgundy Farms, Browne, Ireton, Blessed Sac, Grace Episcopal, etc.) generally are a notch or three below the quality of comparable privates in the DC area.

what evidence do you have to support this statement?

Purely anecdotal and based on perceptions. SSSA and Country Day aren't particularly selective. Burgundy Farms has a great experiential philosophy but is perceived to be academically week. The Catholics aren't particularly stellar. They're just fine, but nothing to write home about the way the more elite schools in this area are.

I'm not sure a school's being selective is a great metric (at the K level, how selective can a school really be?). I'm much more interested in outcomes. In my view, a school that can take average students and inspire them to become above average is more impressive than a school that accepts only really bright kids (how do you measure?) and turns them into (surprise!) really bright kids. In other words, the Finns have got it right: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/13/education/from-finland-an-intriguing-school-reform-model.html?pagewanted=all

[Anonymous]

Many of the teachers don't speak very good Spanish. I've spotted many errors in work brought home and I often hear that they just lapse into English or "Spanglish" to explain difficult concepts.

Thank you for this information. I'll have to look into the program further, that doesn't sound promising.

[Anonymous]

This is general research conducted years ago. It is not specific research based on outcomes of the Alexandria dual immersion programs.

Basically, the schools that house the programs have large parent population who simply don't care if their kid is in a special program and don't really see the advantages. You are talking about a large segment of the population who see going and staying in school as well as graduating from high school as a major life achievement not a necessary stepping stone to higher education, better career, higher income. Also, if the school serves a large immigrant population that is not Spanish speaking, then the kids are entering school as ELL learners to begin with. They need to get a grasp on English so I can see why a dual immersion program is not attractive to a family who has immigrated from Ethiopia for example.

I don't think we're talking about the same program. It's the parents that DO care that enter the lottery to get into the program. These kids aren't just snatched from the general school population. Also, only kids who speak the immersion language at home (Spanish in this case) or speak English at home are allowed into the progam. Kids who would be learning Spanish as a third language are not considered for the program.

The research you dismiss out of hand is not outdated. It is relevant and I have yet to see anything subsequent come out disputing or contradicting the earlier findings. You also state "I've spotted many errors in work brought home and I often hear that they just lapse into English or "Spanglish" to explain difficult concepts" but you find no mistakes in the English language materials that come home? I certainly have. My DH sometimes think that there are errors in the Spanish materials that come home but it's not erroneous to Spanish speakers from South America. Finally, you"hear that they lapse into English or Spanglish"? You've never actually heard this yourself? Even if you had, I say 'so what'?

Immersion isn't for everyone but decisions should be made on facts not prejudices and unsubstantiated opinion. You certainly shouldn't be disparaging programs you know so little about.