Switching schools at 5th grade?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:the earlier poster said the % staying on for the feeder middle school is reflective of the overall mix of abilities at the elementary school. i think once you have over 1/2 the kids staying thats mostly right.

No it’s not an overall mix. It’s the kids who are lower performing mixing in with lower performing kids from other schools.

Just look at math scores. Almost 1 in 5 kids at Maury above grade level in math. EH 1 in 50 kids. That is a huge difference of 10 fold.

SY22-23 meeting or exceeding for 4th grade math compared to SY23-24 meeting or exceeding for 5th grade math:

JO Wilson went from 8 to 15 students (16% to 32%)
Ludlow went from 27 to 19 students (50% to 40%)
Maury went from 52 to 29 students (68% to 55%)
Miner went from data suppressed to 6 students (DS to 15%)
Payne went from 13 to 12 students (34% to 29%)
SWS went from 28 to 9 students (68% to 39%)
Watkins went from 31 to 18 students (41% to 27%)

Note this includes 4s and 5s. 5s alone would include too much data suppression at the individual school/grade level.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that the kids who leave after *4th* aren't disproportionately high achievers. Of course they are, Basis is a self-selecting pool and just entering the charter lottery at all tilts a certain way. This thread was talking about the kids who left the feeder pattern after *5th*, since those are the ones the OP's kids would befriend. Those kids, at LT at least, are not disproportionately to high achievers.

But also, look at your numbers. SH is getting 19 kids + 18 kids + 15 kids... That's a pretty big cohort of 52 kids. If 70% of them head to SH, which seems about right across the schools, that's 36ish kids. That's enough for two truly on grade level math classes and math is tracked. Also, the numbers of ELA are even higher and that matters more for the untracked classes.

PP. I agree with you. I think a lot of the higher SES attrition at these schools happens between 4th and 5th as students enroll in BASIS or the Latins. And even so, most of the feeder schools maintain a cohort of students scoring 4 and 5 on math assessments.

Going back another year in math meeting and exceeding to get a cohort progression into middle school ...

SY21-22 4th grade EH feeders: 77 students
SY22-23 5th grade EH feeders: 41 students
SY23-24 6th grade EH: 26 students
(54-59 percent of all students moved on from feeders to EH in this year)

SY21-22 4th grade SH feeders: 62 students
SY22-23 5th grade SH feeders: 34 students
SY23-24 6th grade SH: 32 students
(68 percent of all students moved on from feeders to SH in this year)


And the same for ELA ...

SY21-22 4th grade EH feeders: 105 students
SY22-23 5th grade EH feeders: 66 students
SY23-24 6th grade EH: 43 students

SY21-22 4th grade SH feeders: 72 students
SY22-23 5th grade SH feeders: 49 students
SY23-24 6th grade SH: 66 students

Can't say for sure but collectively that suggests to me that both schools get a decent cohort of on-or-above grade level students from feeders. Seems like SH gets on-or-above grade level students from the lottery too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:the earlier poster said the % staying on for the feeder middle school is reflective of the overall mix of abilities at the elementary school. i think once you have over 1/2 the kids staying thats mostly right.

No it’s not an overall mix. It’s the kids who are lower performing mixing in with lower performing kids from other schools.

Just look at math scores. Almost 1 in 5 kids at Maury above grade level in math. EH 1 in 50 kids. That is a huge difference of 10 fold.

SY22-23 meeting or exceeding for 4th grade math compared to SY23-24 meeting or exceeding for 5th grade math:

JO Wilson went from 8 to 15 students (16% to 32%)
Ludlow went from 27 to 19 students (50% to 40%)
Maury went from 52 to 29 students (68% to 55%)
Miner went from data suppressed to 6 students (DS to 15%)
Payne went from 13 to 12 students (34% to 29%)
SWS went from 28 to 9 students (68% to 39%)
Watkins went from 31 to 18 students (41% to 27%)

Note this includes 4s and 5s. 5s alone would include too much data suppression at the individual school/grade level.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that the kids who leave after *4th* aren't disproportionately high achievers. Of course they are, Basis is a self-selecting pool and just entering the charter lottery at all tilts a certain way. This thread was talking about the kids who left the feeder pattern after *5th*, since those are the ones the OP's kids would befriend. Those kids, at LT at least, are not disproportionately to high achievers.

But also, look at your numbers. SH is getting 19 kids + 18 kids + 15 kids... That's a pretty big cohort of 52 kids. If 70% of them head to SH, which seems about right across the schools, that's 36ish kids. That's enough for two truly on grade level math classes and math is tracked. Also, the numbers of ELA are even higher and that matters more for the untracked classes.

PP. I agree with you. I think a lot of the higher SES attrition at these schools happens between 4th and 5th as students enroll in BASIS or the Latins. And even so, most of the feeder schools maintain a cohort of students scoring 4 and 5 on math assessments.

Going back another year in math meeting and exceeding to get a cohort progression into middle school ...

SY21-22 4th grade EH feeders: 77 students
SY22-23 5th grade EH feeders: 41 students
SY23-24 6th grade EH: 26 students
(54-59 percent of all students moved on from feeders to EH in this year)

SY21-22 4th grade SH feeders: 62 students
SY22-23 5th grade SH feeders: 34 students
SY23-24 6th grade SH: 32 students
(68 percent of all students moved on from feeders to SH in this year)


And the same for ELA ...

SY21-22 4th grade EH feeders: 105 students
SY22-23 5th grade EH feeders: 66 students
SY23-24 6th grade EH: 43 students

SY21-22 4th grade SH feeders: 72 students
SY22-23 5th grade SH feeders: 49 students
SY23-24 6th grade SH: 66 students

Can't say for sure but collectively that suggests to me that both schools get a decent cohort of on-or-above grade level students from feeders. Seems like SH gets on-or-above grade level students from the lottery too.

Thanks. This data shows that at SH, at least, there isn’t really 5th to 6th attrition of high achievers or, to the extent there is, it’s offset by lottery gains. That makes sense to me because Brent and SWS both send a number of kids to SH each year. Indeed, one reason that SWS has been slower to start feeding EH en masse is that more than a third of the kids have SH access by right.

[Anonymous]

those are interesting numbers because they grew a lot both schools this years now 7th graders compared to the 8th graders. was it an abnormally strong year, was the next year more or less the same, is the growth trajectory continuing, some combination???

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:those are interesting numbers because they grew a lot both schools this years now 7th graders compared to the 8th graders. was it an abnormally strong year, was the next year more or less the same, is the growth trajectory continuing, some combination???

Both schools were hit hard by COVID, I suspect we’ll continue to see growth but not as fast as during the rebound year or two.

[Anonymous]

The dynamic PP suggested applies to our family. High CAPE score kid at a feeder for another MS. We lotteried for SH w/understanding there is generally a decent-sized cohort of higher performing kids, which allows the school to do some more differentiation than is offered at our feeder MS, which has a smaller such cohort.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: The dynamic PP suggested applies to our family. High CAPE score kid at a feeder for another MS. We lotteried for SH w/understanding there is generally a decent-sized cohort of higher performing kids, which allows the school to do some more differentiation than is offered at our feeder MS, which has a smaller such cohort.

The only tracking at SH is math and it’s basically on grade level.

You are naive if you think there is differentiation in middle school classes.

That’s the reality

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: The dynamic PP suggested applies to our family. High CAPE score kid at a feeder for another MS. We lotteried for SH w/understanding there is generally a decent-sized cohort of higher performing kids, which allows the school to do some more differentiation than is offered at our feeder MS, which has a smaller such cohort.

The only tracking at SH is math and it’s basically on grade level.

SH actually places some 6th graders in 7th grade ELA classes based on their CAPE scores, so this isn’t exactly true. Also, drama class is competitive admission.

You are naive if you think there is differentiation in middle school classes.

That’s the reality

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: The dynamic PP suggested applies to our family. High CAPE score kid at a feeder for another MS. We lotteried for SH w/understanding there is generally a decent-sized cohort of higher performing kids, which allows the school to do some more differentiation than is offered at our feeder MS, which has a smaller such cohort.

The only tracking at SH is math and it’s basically on grade level.

You are naive if you think there is differentiation in middle school classes.

That’s the reality

SH actually places some 6th graders in 7th grade ELA classes based on their CAPE scores, so this isn’t exactly true. Also, drama class is competitive admission.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: The dynamic PP suggested applies to our family. High CAPE score kid at a feeder for another MS. We lotteried for SH w/understanding there is generally a decent-sized cohort of higher performing kids, which allows the school to do some more differentiation than is offered at our feeder MS, which has a smaller such cohort.

The only tracking at SH is math and it’s basically on grade level.

You are naive if you think there is differentiation in middle school classes.

That’s the reality

SH actually places some 6th graders in 7th grade ELA classes based on their CAPE scores, so this isn’t exactly true. Also, drama class is competitive admission.

Competitive drama?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: The dynamic PP suggested applies to our family. High CAPE score kid at a feeder for another MS. We lotteried for SH w/understanding there is generally a decent-sized cohort of higher performing kids, which allows the school to do some more differentiation than is offered at our feeder MS, which has a smaller such cohort.

The only tracking at SH is math and it’s basically on grade level.

You are naive if you think there is differentiation in middle school classes.

That’s the reality

SH actually places some 6th graders in 7th grade ELA classes based on their CAPE scores, so this isn’t exactly true. Also, drama class is competitive admission.

Competitive drama?

Yes, drama is a class at SH and you have to apply to get into it. Not everyone is accepted. It's like auditioning for a play, except it's for the class itself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd recommend learning more about Jefferson before writing it off.

I came here to say this too. Especially if your kid is happy at ES, two transitions in two years is a lot. We are heading there next year, and I’ve talked to a lot of parents that are really happy there. I’ve also talked to several families that initially saw Jefferson as a nonstarter until they visited and talked with staff, and many of them attended or will be attending next year.

Don't fall this sort of whitewashing BS, OP. The truth is that there hasn't been a year when "many" UMC Brent grads (read a dozen+) went to Jefferson since pre-Covid. I know this because my kids' time at Brent extended from 2014 to 2024. We know several families where older sibs attended Jefferson during the pandemic yet younger sibs are at SH now. Jefferson has a nice building and faculty and staff talk the talk about supporting advanced learners but there isn't much to inspire.

The inconvenient truth is that hardly anybody bothers with Jefferson when they have access to SH and some of the UMC Brent families who start at Jefferson bail before 8th grade year after year.

While I think it would be great if more Brent families attended, there are kids other than the UMC Brent grads who attend and thrive at Jefferson. Those families, who represent current 6th, 7th, and 8th graders, were the ones who informed my family's decision (not kids who attended during the pandemic 5 years ago). I get that different families are going to make different choices, my main point was to agree with the person who recommended learning more before writing it off completely because I've seen people (not all UMC and not all white, but all kind, smart kids) change their mind after doing so.

FWIW, there are Brent alums who graduated from Jefferson last year and who are now freshmen at SWW, Banneker and McKinley.

While the number of kids who go from Brent to Jefferson may be small, those who do seem to have a very high success rate in getting into selective high schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: The dynamic PP suggested applies to our family. High CAPE score kid at a feeder for another MS. We lotteried for SH w/understanding there is generally a decent-sized cohort of higher performing kids, which allows the school to do some more differentiation than is offered at our feeder MS, which has a smaller such cohort.

The only tracking at SH is math and it’s basically on grade level.

You are naive if you think there is differentiation in middle school classes.

That’s the reality

SH actually places some 6th graders in 7th grade ELA classes based on their CAPE scores, so this isn’t exactly true. Also, drama class is competitive admission.

This may be a dumb question but if a 6th grader is moved into the 7th grade English class what do they do once they are in 8th?

[Anonymous]

I feel like this post is all over the place.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd recommend learning more about Jefferson before writing it off.

I came here to say this too. Especially if your kid is happy at ES, two transitions in two years is a lot. We are heading there next year, and I’ve talked to a lot of parents that are really happy there. I’ve also talked to several families that initially saw Jefferson as a nonstarter until they visited and talked with staff, and many of them attended or will be attending next year.

Don't fall this sort of whitewashing BS, OP. The truth is that there hasn't been a year when "many" UMC Brent grads (read a dozen+) went to Jefferson since pre-Covid. I know this because my kids' time at Brent extended from 2014 to 2024. We know several families where older sibs attended Jefferson during the pandemic yet younger sibs are at SH now. Jefferson has a nice building and faculty and staff talk the talk about supporting advanced learners but there isn't much to inspire.

The inconvenient truth is that hardly anybody bothers with Jefferson when they have access to SH and some of the UMC Brent families who start at Jefferson bail before 8th grade year after year.

While I think it would be great if more Brent families attended, there are kids other than the UMC Brent grads who attend and thrive at Jefferson. Those families, who represent current 6th, 7th, and 8th graders, were the ones who informed my family's decision (not kids who attended during the pandemic 5 years ago). I get that different families are going to make different choices, my main point was to agree with the person who recommended learning more before writing it off completely because I've seen people (not all UMC and not all white, but all kind, smart kids) change their mind after doing so.

FWIW, there are Brent alums who graduated from Jefferson last year and who are now freshmen at SWW, Banneker and McKinley.

While the number of kids who go from Brent to Jefferson may be small, those who do seem to have a very high success rate in getting into selective high schools.

Yes, we were part of this Brent cohort from PreS3-5th grade. These kids were self-starters, book worms and good students all along and, from what we hear, they had OK experiences at Jefferson. But if your UMC kid needs a push in middle school, Jefferson isn't the place to head. Few will care, but, last time I checked, Jefferson was 0% Asian. If your family is Asian and you don't have access to BASIS or one of the Latins and can't afford a private, SH has some Asians these days.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:the earlier poster said the % staying on for the feeder middle school is reflective of the overall mix of abilities at the elementary school. i think once you have over 1/2 the kids staying thats mostly right.

No it’s not an overall mix. It’s the kids who are lower performing mixing in with lower performing kids from other schools.

Just look at math scores. Almost 1 in 5 kids at Maury above grade level in math. EH 1 in 50 kids. That is a huge difference of 10 fold.

This isn’t true at LT. It’s true that the out flux to Basis/Latin is disproportionately kids who are at least on grade level. However, once the kids are in 5th, the kids going to SH are representative, if not slightly above the 5th grade average. A few kids go private, and a handful of kids go to “good” middle schools, but most of the other kids are heading to schools UMC families don’t use.

LT loses high performing kids in the upper grades in 4th and 5th. In fact, stats at the school are not good, much worst then Maury.

Only 1 out of 10 kids above grade level in math. That’s only 10% which is then diluted with kids leaving in upper grades so really the percentages of high performing kids going to SH is likely in the low single percentages.

Maury has very high stats, so saying LT's stats are "worse than Maury" is not the same as saying LT's stats are bad. LT is one of the highest performing schools on the Hill, Maury is just higher performing.

My sense is that for a time, more LT families were sending kids to SH than Maury kids were sending their kids to EH. Plus SH was getting more kids from Brent for proximity reasons. So SH's reputation seems to have risen faster than EH's. But I'm enthusiastic to see more Maury families sending their kids to EH as well. The more UMC families on the Hill continue to invest in their in-boundary public schools into MS, the better for the neighborhood and the schools, IMO.

What I am not getting is your tone. Just because a school's test scores are not quite as high as another school's doesn't mean it's a bad school. LT has a slightly higher at-risk percentage than Maury, and I don't know how that shakes out by grade, but that alone could account for the differences in scores because, unfortunately, the strongest predictor of test scores at the elementary level is parents' income and education level.

LT is a well liked school with a lot of IB buy in and a good school culture. That's to be celebrated.

+1

Not sure if it is the same person repeatedly posting about test scores, and I appreciate different perspectives. But I would rather evaluate how my child is doing by seeing how many grade levels ahead they are in their reading, what advanced math classes they are taking, what type of writing/narratives they are completing, etc. All of which is not possible to capture in one standardized test score.

Also will add that LT and Maury are great schools with lots of bright kids, but there are also high achieving cohorts of kids coming from other feeder schools at both of those middle schools. I know the enrollment has jumped significantly at EH since COVID, and it may have at SH and other middle schools as well.

+1. There are significant demographic differences between LT and Maury, including that LT has a much larger OOB population. The subgroup population scores at LT are very good in ELA (e.g., 100% of white 3rd & 5th graders score 4 or 5 on PARCC last year; you can't quite tell for 4th, but likely 1 single kid didn't; also, it has at-risk scores way above the city average) and decent but not great for math. But LT has kids that excel in all sort of other academic adjacent fora (as I have no doubt Maury does too). It had 6 of the top 15 debate teams at the recent DC elementary school debate tournament, including 1st, 2nd & 4th, and that event had teams from Janney, Mann, and YY among others. It had the 2nd place team at the recent DCPS 3rd-5th grade Math team tournament. It was the only DCPS school in the city to host Math Kangaroo this year and had a bunch of kids place nationally (as well as in DC). It hosts a big science fair with impressive projects. It has an actual printed HS-style newspaper that comes out 3 times a year. It has a super impressive musical that over 60 kids participate in. All of which is to say, it has tons of indicia of smart, high achieving kids with involved parents and teachers.

Maury is a fabulous school with excellent test results (among the best in the city). I would be thrilled to send my kid there too.

+1 to this.