Law School at 40?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think where you’re going to have a hard time checking all of your boxes, at least at first, is salary and flexibility. The places that offer the most flexibility are often the ones that pay the least. You also mentioned wanting to start at 150k and to be frank any firm starting a brand new lawyer at 150k is not going to be one known for flexibility.

DP but for some more perspective, I have a very flexible government attorney job making 150k, but it took me a decade get here. Also it can be very competitive trying to get a job (especially without veterans or some other hiring preference).

The private legal sector isn’t known for being flexible out the gate, which is why people bust their butts in their 20s and 30s before having kids. You’re not going to get some sweet in house counsel gig as a new grad.

[Anonymous]

I'm a lawyer and it really depends on how concrete of a plan you have, how much debt you'd have, and how you'd feel about the personal sacrifices involved, particularly if you're doing it at night. I went straight through but I did have classmates who were older.

Law school is something you really want to put focus into. I didn't think it was that difficult as long as long as I stayed on top of the reading and work, but I had classmates who dug themselves into a hole pretty badly. Shortcuts like using pre-made outlines can backfire because the act of making your outline and distilling down the semester is really how you prep for exams. Even open book exams you want that immediate recall and to only be using the outline for quick reference. Now coming straight from college, particularly my STEM degree, I was still in study mode. Getting back into that can be an adjustment for some people.

I also agree with the poster above who mentioned that the first couple years as an attorney are difficult, I was regularly not getting home until quite late. At 25 with a husband who was similarly working crazy hours and doing a PhD doable. Today with my kids? I wouldn't want to do that. Now I wasn't allowed to telework in my probationary period, which we loosened up on post COVID, but it will still mean some late nights.

So really take a hard look at your plans, whether your post law school employment idea is concrete, whether you're going to be able to give your classes the focus they need, your debt situation, and whether you're prepared to handle the hours right out of school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m a compliance manager (2 steps below c-suite) at a large corporation. I’m expecting layoffs at my company and am taking this as a chance to think about what I really want to do. So I’m weighing a lateral elsewhere or switching industries into law. I’m not super excited about the lateral because I don’t love the substance of my work now. I also don’t know how easy it would be for me to find a lateral with some WFH flexibility either.

The opportunity costs of missed salary, 401k savings, etc., the cost of tuition, and salary differences are workable for me. What I’m wrestling with is how likely is it that I could have a flexible, high paying job post law school and how long it would take me to get there. I feel like I’m at my last chance age wise to switch industries and still make a decent salary.

It sounds like DH is unrealistic, and I appreciate everyone’s input. That’s exactly what DCUM is great at!

I am in semi-big law right now. High pay and flexible are not possible in the firms I know. If you get an Associate offer, they are going to want the hours, and on their terms. Then add all the non-billable and socializing/team building BS. I would be more positive if you were looking at a specialty you already have a background in. But, if you go, pick an in-state school, the private school tuition is sky high, and not worth it.

Thank you!

[Anonymous]

It’s really hard to get a job in your 40s…particularly an entry level lawyer gig. And with the flexibility and salary you want? I really doubt it.

Plus: I know a number of people who didn’t pass the bar when they had to study in their 40s to sit for it in a new state.

Why not find a way to pivot to a new career without the ridiculous tuition for three years and the risky job prospects?

I’ll say the quiet part out loud: ageism is real. The reality is the people interviewing you will be your age or younger, and most won’t want to supervise someone older than they are. It’s not cool, but it’s a thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm a lawyer and it really depends on how concrete of a plan you have, how much debt you'd have, and how you'd feel about the personal sacrifices involved, particularly if you're doing it at night. I went straight through but I did have classmates who were older.

Law school is something you really want to put focus into. I didn't think it was that difficult as long as long as I stayed on top of the reading and work, but I had classmates who dug themselves into a hole pretty badly. Shortcuts like using pre-made outlines can backfire because the act of making your outline and distilling down the semester is really how you prep for exams. Even open book exams you want that immediate recall and to only be using the outline for quick reference. Now coming straight from college, particularly my STEM degree, I was still in study mode. Getting back into that can be an adjustment for some people.

I also agree with the poster above who mentioned that the first couple years as an attorney are difficult, I was regularly not getting home until quite late. At 25 with a husband who was similarly working crazy hours and doing a PhD doable. Today with my kids? I wouldn't want to do that. Now I wasn't allowed to telework in my probationary period, which we loosened up on post COVID, but it will still mean some late nights.

So really take a hard look at your plans, whether your post law school employment idea is concrete, whether you're going to be able to give your classes the focus they need, your debt situation, and whether you're prepared to handle the hours right out of school.

Thank you!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It’s really hard to get a job in your 40s…particularly an entry level lawyer gig. And with the flexibility and salary you want? I really doubt it.

Plus: I know a number of people who didn’t pass the bar when they had to study in their 40s to sit for it in a new state.

Why not find a way to pivot to a new career without the ridiculous tuition for three years and the risky job prospects?

I’ll say the quiet part out loud: ageism is real. The reality is the people interviewing you will be your age or younger, and most won’t want to supervise someone older than they are. It’s not cool, but it’s a thing.

Good feedback. Thank you!

[Anonymous]

I know someone who had a very successful transition older: she worked as a paralegal for years, went to law school part time at night, and then was hired by her firm to do trusts and estates. To me that is a doable plan.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It’s really hard to get a job in your 40s…particularly an entry level lawyer gig. And with the flexibility and salary you want? I really doubt it.

Plus: I know a number of people who didn’t pass the bar when they had to study in their 40s to sit for it in a new state.

Why not find a way to pivot to a new career without the ridiculous tuition for three years and the risky job prospects?

I’ll say the quiet part out loud: ageism is real. The reality is the people interviewing you will be your age or younger, and most won’t want to supervise someone older than they are. It’s not cool, but it’s a thing.

Ugh. I’m taking VA in Feb and feel like I remember nothing lol. I’m licensed in CA so don’t have to take the mbe, but I’m not looking forward to this. When I took CA I thought it was pretty easy. But yeah, none of it is still in my head…

[Anonymous]

That’s insanely stupid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s really hard to get a job in your 40s…particularly an entry level lawyer gig. And with the flexibility and salary you want? I really doubt it.

Plus: I know a number of people who didn’t pass the bar when they had to study in their 40s to sit for it in a new state.

Why not find a way to pivot to a new career without the ridiculous tuition for three years and the risky job prospects?

I’ll say the quiet part out loud: ageism is real. The reality is the people interviewing you will be your age or younger, and most won’t want to supervise someone older than they are. It’s not cool, but it’s a thing.

Ugh. I’m taking VA in Feb and feel like I remember nothing lol. I’m licensed in CA so don’t have to take the mbe, but I’m not looking forward to this. When I took CA I thought it was pretty easy. But yeah, none of it is still in my head…

Are you doing a prep course? There's a bunch or quirky stuff I learned just for the VA bar, then promptly forgot. Do they still make people weird suits? I thought that was the weirdest part. I was warned the conference center was cold so I wore thick tights and layered under my suit. I was glad I did.

[Anonymous]

There’s got to be a way to leverage your current experience into something better with less intensive retraining or pivoting. I don’t know anything about compliance, but what about cybersecurity? I would come up with several other ideas besides law and run an analysis.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are you looking at a top tier law school? How much will it cost and how much do you make now? From a financial perspective this does not seem to make sense. Also, while you may be able to obtain that type of job eventually, new associates need to put in a lot of work to prove themselves in the beginning. And you will be a 43 year old competing with 25 year olds?

Yes, have done the math. Of course I will be competing with the 25 year olds but he thinks that will be an advantage in a way. So many of the babies they interview just lack basic work skills. So many of the K to JDs need training in work culture and how to practice, whereas I’d only need the latter. Also, I’ve paid my “child bearing years” tax, which while unfortunate, would be an advantage for me over a 25yo female. ☹️

He is wrong. They want people to work 18 hours a day. Do you not know a single lawyer you could talk to about this? I can’t imagine anyone would tell you this was feasible. Go to law school if you want, but not for you to make money.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Step One is getting through law school. Assuming you go full time, expect to having to put in a solid 10-12 hours a day for the next three years. Then you have to study for the bar exam. Then you have to get hired, and unless you are willing to start at a lower salary “flexibility” and being a junior lawyer don’t mix.

You are at least a half a dozen years away from what you after, at which point you will be much closer to 50 than 40.

What? No. Ugh, I hate it when people who are clearly not lawyers play them on DCUM.

I went to a first-tier law school and graduated top 15% of my class and I treated it like a full-time job, spending about 8-9 hours a day at school, attending class and studying in the library. I spent a few hours (or more if I had a paper due or something) on Saturday studying, but took every Sunday completely off. Law Review work or Moot Court Board (which you have to do, OP, if given the opportunity) can add hours, but you get credit hours for it.

This poster is right about the second part though. You don't get flexibility once at a law firm until way down the line, and even then, it's "flexibility". You have to be reachable to put out fires late at night, during weekends...

New people often don't get how things really are. I spent a lot of time in big law before moving to a small firm with some other big law defectors. Sure, we have some flexibility in where we work, but that doesn’t mean we aren’t answering emails late at night. We recently brought on someone who's never worked in big law and integrated them into deals and they thought they could just take time off whenever and leave the other people on the deal hanging. If it were up to me, we'd only hire folks who graduated at the top of their class, made law review, and put in their time in big law before wanting flexibility. People looking for flexibility and easier rides with poor law school grades and no big firm experience have been a liability.

I would say “people looking for flexibility and easier rides” period. Even those with a high gpa. And when they are coming from Biglaw I feel a lot of concern that they are leaving precisely because they don’t want to work that hard.

I recognize there may be risks of hiring someone leaving Big Law for more flexibility, but those who have spent a few years in Big Law generally understand that they can't leave in the middle of a transaction they've been integrated into and decide to go on vacation without any notice. They know they need to check emails before 10 AM and after 4 PM. We hired a new attorney who had just graduated from law school looking for "flexibility, " which was a total disaster.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are you looking at a top tier law school? How much will it cost and how much do you make now? From a financial perspective this does not seem to make sense. Also, while you may be able to obtain that type of job eventually, new associates need to put in a lot of work to prove themselves in the beginning. And you will be a 43 year old competing with 25 year olds?

Yes, have done the math. Of course I will be competing with the 25 year olds but he thinks that will be an advantage in a way. So many of the babies they interview just lack basic work skills. So many of the K to JDs need training in work culture and how to practice, whereas I’d only need the latter. Also, I’ve paid my “child bearing years” tax, which while unfortunate, would be an advantage for me over a 25yo female. ☹️

He is wrong. They want people to work 18 hours a day. Do you not know a single lawyer you could talk to about this? I can’t imagine anyone would tell you this was feasible. Go to law school if you want, but not for you to make money.

I've personally had mixed experiences. Some straight out of school lawyers are easier to train because they're more willing to take feedback and don't have to unlearn things. However sometimes they just haven't learned how to put the work in and flame out for that reason.

Yes, having a 29 year old check your work might feel insulting, but it's just how it goes sometimes. Sometimes people with experience get stuck in old patterns and don't want to relearn things.

[Anonymous]

You want an initial salary of $150K. What is your goal of income 10 years out of law school?