the Atlantic: The Elite College Students Who Can't Read Books

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand this. Aren't admissions more competitive than ever? Aren't these the superhuman students who aced the hardest classes, scored extremely highly on SATs, had very time-consuming ECs....? We are told nobody has a chance at these schools, and yet, those who are actually there, can't read a book? How is this possible.

Test prep. Read a short passage find the main idea. Move onto the next skill. Meanwhile, they've never read a whole book about anything. I totally understand why this is happening. Since there's no homework these days, I assign it. My kid is always reading a book for homework, and we're always discussing it.

But that just sounds like a run of the mill 4.0 GPA/grade grabber who we are repeatedly told can't get into, e.g. Columbia.

I mean, my 8th grader is not a big reader and she read a non-fiction psychiatry book over just a few days this summer and we discussed it. Pretty sure she would be capable of discussing Pride and prejudice and Crime and punishment within a couple of weeks. I read these books in HS. They are interesting and not that hard to read.

Those books aren't interesting at all. I mean, Crime & Punishment? Are you now going to tell me War & Peace is interesting too?

Perhaps if we let a kid read a non-fiction psychiatry book instead of Pride and Prejudice or whatever, then things would be better.

But, if you want to read Crime & Punishment, then go for it.

Wow, I feel sorry for you. Your inability to understand some of the greatest fiction ever written indicates lacks in other aspects of your understanding of life.

Why...there are a ton of people who hate all fiction writing. Why are you superior because you enjoy fiction and someone else would rather read a 1,000 page book on Oppenheimer or other non-fiction.

DP. Don’t backtrack. This isn’t about someone preferring nonfiction to fiction. It’s about a poster seemingly shocked that someone today could enjoy the classics. “Those books aren’t interesting at all” - seriously? Readers over the past century have disagreed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My dcs go to a good public high school in the south. Ds has not had to read a book since middle school. Dd has had one book to read for AP English Lit so far, that's it.

Have you ever heard of the library? My children read books outside of school. Writing is a whole different matter - I don't know how to get them to write essays as an extracurricular

Don't tell that to the CS major parents on DCUM who seem to think that anything non-STEM is intellectually inferior and unchallenging.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand this. Aren't admissions more competitive than ever? Aren't these the superhuman students who aced the hardest classes, scored extremely highly on SATs, had very time-consuming ECs....? We are told nobody has a chance at these schools, and yet, those who are actually there, can't read a book? How is this possible.

bc kids lie on the apps.

I mean columbia's app makes you list all the books you've read in the last 2 years...

okay... and AOs can't suss that out?

NP. I wish all top schools required three recommendations: one from an English teacher, one from a math teacher, and one from a teacher of the student’s choice.

This way there would be less likelihood of ambitious kids fudging or obscuring big gaps in their education or abilities.

IMhO, test scores don’t help at that level. A kid who scores 750+ math and 750+ is not necessarily engaged and impressive in the classroom in both areas. We’re starting to understand how easy it is for a smart, ambitious kid to study strategically to “beat the test,” if that’s their primary goal. For some, that’s far easier (and more enjoyable) than commiting to a full year of genuine engagement and curiosity in both AP English and AP math.

This whole topic reminds me of an interesting book I read (in full 😜) a few years ago. I think it was called “Excellent Sheep.” Lots of discussion about smart kids who engaged in transactional learning but lacked true engagement. Works fine for some, of course. But it seems antithetical to my idea of true education.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand this. Aren't admissions more competitive than ever? Aren't these the superhuman students who aced the hardest classes, scored extremely highly on SATs, had very time-consuming ECs....? We are told nobody has a chance at these schools, and yet, those who are actually there, can't read a book? How is this possible.

bc kids lie on the apps.

I mean columbia's app makes you list all the books you've read in the last 2 years...

okay... and AOs can't suss that out?

Have you seen the Columbia app?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Parenting. Try it.

This is an indictment of our education system. If children aren’t reading entire books as part of a path to graduation, we as a society should be demanding more. I doubt these parents of students at elite universities are failing at their part in this…their kids are literally at an ivy.

Parents aren’t teachers, we all learned this in the pandemic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand this. Aren't admissions more competitive than ever? Aren't these the superhuman students who aced the hardest classes, scored extremely highly on SATs, had very time-consuming ECs....? We are told nobody has a chance at these schools, and yet, those who are actually there, can't read a book? How is this possible.

Test prep. Read a short passage find the main idea. Move onto the next skill. Meanwhile, they've never read a whole book about anything. I totally understand why this is happening. Since there's no homework these days, I assign it. My kid is always reading a book for homework, and we're always discussing it.

But that just sounds like a run of the mill 4.0 GPA/grade grabber who we are repeatedly told can't get into, e.g. Columbia.

I mean, my 8th grader is not a big reader and she read a non-fiction psychiatry book over just a few days this summer and we discussed it. Pretty sure she would be capable of discussing Pride and prejudice and Crime and punishment within a couple of weeks. I read these books in HS. They are interesting and not that hard to read.

Those books aren't interesting at all. I mean, Crime & Punishment? Are you now going to tell me War & Peace is interesting too?

Perhaps if we let a kid read a non-fiction psychiatry book instead of Pride and Prejudice or whatever, then things would be better.

But, if you want to read Crime & Punishment, then go for it.

War & Peace is VERY interesting, I feel sorry for you that you've never read it. It remains and I suspect always will remain one of the greatest works of literature ever crafted.

The same is true of Crime & Punishment.

If I had to be stranded on a deserted island with a single crate of books, you can bet that everything ever written by Dostoevsky and Tolstoy would be in that crate.

Honestly it makes me sad to think of you living your whole life and never learning to appreciate those two novels, or any of the other brilliant works by two of the greatest writers who ever drew breath on this planet. You must not have any real interest in humanity if you have no interest in Russian literature.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My dcs go to a good public high school in the south. Ds has not had to read a book since middle school. Dd has had one book to read for AP English Lit so far, that's it.

Have you ever heard of the library? My children read books outside of school. Writing is a whole different matter - I don't know how to get them to write essays as an extracurricular

The snark was not needed. I was speaking about school reading and not what we do at home. I took my kids to the library from babyhood, read to them constantly, then dh read all of Harry Potter, all of Lord of the Rings to them when they got older. My dd reads a lot outside of school, including classics. Ds is just not interested at all, and at 17yo I do not have the power to enforce reading.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand this. Aren't admissions more competitive than ever? Aren't these the superhuman students who aced the hardest classes, scored extremely highly on SATs, had very time-consuming ECs....? We are told nobody has a chance at these schools, and yet, those who are actually there, can't read a book? How is this possible.

Test prep. Read a short passage find the main idea. Move onto the next skill. Meanwhile, they've never read a whole book about anything. I totally understand why this is happening. Since there's no homework these days, I assign it. My kid is always reading a book for homework, and we're always discussing it.

But that just sounds like a run of the mill 4.0 GPA/grade grabber who we are repeatedly told can't get into, e.g. Columbia.

I mean, my 8th grader is not a big reader and she read a non-fiction psychiatry book over just a few days this summer and we discussed it. Pretty sure she would be capable of discussing Pride and prejudice and Crime and punishment within a couple of weeks. I read these books in HS. They are interesting and not that hard to read.

Those books aren't interesting at all. I mean, Crime & Punishment? Are you now going to tell me War & Peace is interesting too?

Perhaps if we let a kid read a non-fiction psychiatry book instead of Pride and Prejudice or whatever, then things would be better.

But, if you want to read Crime & Punishment, then go for it.

War & Peace is VERY interesting, I feel sorry for you that you've never read it. It remains and I suspect always will remain one of the greatest works of literature ever crafted.

The same is true of Crime & Punishment.

If I had to be stranded on a deserted island with a single crate of books, you can bet that everything ever written by Dostoevsky and Tolstoy would be in that crate.

Honestly it makes me sad to think of you living your whole life and never learning to appreciate those two novels, or any of the other brilliant works by two of the greatest writers who ever drew breath on this planet. You must not have any real interest in humanity if you have no interest in Russian literature.

It's actually not sad at all. That's like saying it's sad that you think Led Zeppelin is the greatest band and you think The Beatles are terrible.

It's equally no different to say you think the greatest book ever written is Silent Spring by Rachel Carson, and you don't care for War & Peace.

It's simply a matter of taste. Nothing more.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:DC is taking AP Language this year (11th), and the teacher had them read Outliers, by Malcolm Gladwell over the summer. DC enjoyed it and said the class discussion and spin-off wring assignments have been great! But …

At Open House / meet the teacher night, DC’s teacher said for the rest of the year the class will be reading non-fiction book EXCERPTS and articles and editorials. Is this normal for AP Lang??

Hopefully AP Lit will be different. A steady stream of actual full-length books, right? That’s what I remember from back in my day (the 90s).

I honestly don’t know what’s normal. But we had to order a slew of novels for my kid’s AP lang class. They do read excerpts also though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand this. Aren't admissions more competitive than ever? Aren't these the superhuman students who aced the hardest classes, scored extremely highly on SATs, had very time-consuming ECs....? We are told nobody has a chance at these schools, and yet, those who are actually there, can't read a book? How is this possible.

Test prep. Read a short passage find the main idea. Move onto the next skill. Meanwhile, they've never read a whole book about anything. I totally understand why this is happening. Since there's no homework these days, I assign it. My kid is always reading a book for homework, and we're always discussing it.

But that just sounds like a run of the mill 4.0 GPA/grade grabber who we are repeatedly told can't get into, e.g. Columbia.

I mean, my 8th grader is not a big reader and she read a non-fiction psychiatry book over just a few days this summer and we discussed it. Pretty sure she would be capable of discussing Pride and prejudice and Crime and punishment within a couple of weeks. I read these books in HS. They are interesting and not that hard to read.

Those books aren't interesting at all. I mean, Crime & Punishment? Are you now going to tell me War & Peace is interesting too?

Perhaps if we let a kid read a non-fiction psychiatry book instead of Pride and Prejudice or whatever, then things would be better.

But, if you want to read Crime & Punishment, then go for it.

I read Crime & Punishment for AP Lit in high school. We had great discussions about it. Took a Dostoevsky class in college, too. Still think about the things he wrote and the discussions we had. Because that's the thing with the liberal arts, they exist to grow you as a person and inform your outlook on life. Our society would quite possibly be a better place if the programmers and Silicon Valley cowboy coders had to study philosophy and literature.

But I utterly failed at 2 attempts on War & Peace. Oh my goodness, the excessive discussions of the Russian prince from the dying guy. Sorry to the War & Peace lovers on the thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand this. Aren't admissions more competitive than ever? Aren't these the superhuman students who aced the hardest classes, scored extremely highly on SATs, had very time-consuming ECs....? We are told nobody has a chance at these schools, and yet, those who are actually there, can't read a book? How is this possible.

Test prep. Read a short passage find the main idea. Move onto the next skill. Meanwhile, they've never read a whole book about anything. I totally understand why this is happening. Since there's no homework these days, I assign it. My kid is always reading a book for homework, and we're always discussing it.

But that just sounds like a run of the mill 4.0 GPA/grade grabber who we are repeatedly told can't get into, e.g. Columbia.

I mean, my 8th grader is not a big reader and she read a non-fiction psychiatry book over just a few days this summer and we discussed it. Pretty sure she would be capable of discussing Pride and prejudice and Crime and punishment within a couple of weeks. I read these books in HS. They are interesting and not that hard to read.

Those books aren't interesting at all. I mean, Crime & Punishment? Are you now going to tell me War & Peace is interesting too?

Perhaps if we let a kid read a non-fiction psychiatry book instead of Pride and Prejudice or whatever, then things would be better.

But, if you want to read Crime & Punishment, then go for it.

I read Crime & Punishment for AP Lit in high school. We had great discussions about it. Took a Dostoevsky class in college, too. Still think about the things he wrote and the discussions we had. Because that's the thing with the liberal arts, they exist to grow you as a person and inform your outlook on life. Our society would quite possibly be a better place if the programmers and Silicon Valley cowboy coders had to study philosophy and literature.

But I utterly failed at 2 attempts on War & Peace. Oh my goodness, the excessive discussions of the Russian prince from the dying guy. Sorry to the War & Peace lovers on the thread.

You do know that Computer Science is now one of the most popular majors at most SLACs, correct?

[Anonymous]

Why the heck are you all using this thread to argue about your relative interest in (and the merits of) Crime and Punishment???

Are you two current high school or college students? If not, you two are way off topic here. Please stop subjecting the rest of us to your petty one-on-one B$.

If you must keep it going, please get off this thread and start a new one on the DCUM books board.

To state the obvious, you two are way off topic here and subjecting the rest of us to your one-on-one petty B$.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand this. Aren't admissions more competitive than ever? Aren't these the superhuman students who aced the hardest classes, scored extremely highly on SATs, had very time-consuming ECs....? We are told nobody has a chance at these schools, and yet, those who are actually there, can't read a book? How is this possible.

Test prep. Read a short passage find the main idea. Move onto the next skill. Meanwhile, they've never read a whole book about anything. I totally understand why this is happening. Since there's no homework these days, I assign it. My kid is always reading a book for homework, and we're always discussing it.

But that just sounds like a run of the mill 4.0 GPA/grade grabber who we are repeatedly told can't get into, e.g. Columbia.

I mean, my 8th grader is not a big reader and she read a non-fiction psychiatry book over just a few days this summer and we discussed it. Pretty sure she would be capable of discussing Pride and prejudice and Crime and punishment within a couple of weeks. I read these books in HS. They are interesting and not that hard to read.

Those books aren't interesting at all. I mean, Crime & Punishment? Are you now going to tell me War & Peace is interesting too?

Perhaps if we let a kid read a non-fiction psychiatry book instead of Pride and Prejudice or whatever, then things would be better.

But, if you want to read Crime & Punishment, then go for it.

War & Peace is VERY interesting, I feel sorry for you that you've never read it. It remains and I suspect always will remain one of the greatest works of literature ever crafted.

The same is true of Crime & Punishment.

If I had to be stranded on a deserted island with a single crate of books, you can bet that everything ever written by Dostoevsky and Tolstoy would be in that crate.

Honestly it makes me sad to think of you living your whole life and never learning to appreciate those two novels, or any of the other brilliant works by two of the greatest writers who ever drew breath on this planet. You must not have any real interest in humanity if you have no interest in Russian literature.

It's actually not sad at all. That's like saying it's sad that you think Led Zeppelin is the greatest band and you think The Beatles are terrible.

It's equally no different to say you think the greatest book ever written is Silent Spring by Rachel Carson, and you don't care for War & Peace.

It's simply a matter of taste. Nothing more.

PP here. Please ignore my overly wordy post above. Just stop or take it to the Books board.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kid goes to a Big3 high school in DC and has read 50+ books cover-to-cover for class during high school.

This is large part of why parents pay for top private schools.

Public library worked for us. Good deal even with the late fees

[Anonymous]

It's a lie that 20 years ago students were reading the whole book.

This is NOT new.

Professors are the newest victim class.