I Dropped Computer Science at CMU: Here's Why

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Just wondering if this could be someone trying to scare competition away from applying to CMU.

+1

[Anonymous]

In some countries (e.g., UK), it is normal for 6th form (high school) students to apply to a specific degree program (such as CS) and then spend nearly all of their college academic time in modules (courses) from that one department. Those (CS) graduates are not less capable than students who graduated from equivalent US universities (e.g., comparing Cambridge/Imperial CS graduates with MIT/CalTech/CMU CS graduates; comparing GMU CS graduates with some mid-tier UK CS department’s graduates).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

should a kid interested in pursuing CS in college not waste time taking courses in history, foreign language, English?

No he should not. But he will be forced to so that the college can milk his parents for another year of tuition and fees etc. Basically welfare for non-tech professors.

The theory courses give foundation and understanding that expand the student’s knowledge base, critical thinking, and troubleshooting. Such skills are very important while working because the problems one tackles at work will be very different from the problems one solves in assignments and exams at college

The skills you need to solve problems at work, you will learn at work. Academic theory will remain largely useless to this.

Just curious. What is your formal education and what line of professional work are you in?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:DD (TJ grad) was waitlisted at CMU CS. Now she studies CS at a T20 college and although considers herself the best CS student in her college class, she knows how far ahead CS-wise her ex-classmates got by studying at CMU and MIT. Their CS classes are much harder than hers, and she has to self-educate in her spare time.

OP, what amount of money are they making?

It is possible that MIT manages the stress in a better way. CMU has very hard grading on a curve...so it is difficult to get an A or a B. At the same time, Stanford CS (as example) basically says everyone will get an A or a B. Having the threat of a C (or lower) hanging over your head can cause massive anxiety vs. knowing that as long as you are trying, you won't get less than a B (and most will get As).

+100
Most of the kids in a program like CMU SCS have never gotten a grade below an A on any high school assignment. The transition into an environment where C's (and below) or 50% & below are handed out freely, and following what the kids believe is "intense" studying (relative to their history), can be soul crushing for them.

It makes you wonder about the kids who are crushing it in these high level classes vs this kid, who seems intelligent enough, but obviously was in a program not suited for his interests. What did these other kids experience in HS that this kid did not?

The kids who are crushing it are not smarter, they are just working harder. The kid who quit very likely never had to work very hard at something in HS, never had to reach out for help, and always had plenty of time for games, reading, and watching videos. When in Florida, the kid had plenty of time for games, reading, and watching videos, as well as partying and women. Meanwhile the kids at CMU were having no fun at all, just grinding away.

Being in a tech program very often means committing to that being your whole life for four years. Not everyone is sufficiently motivated for that.

I would put it another way: if four years of CS is not fun, you should not be majoring in it. Because you are looking at 40+ years of CS if you want to go into that field.

There are a lot of kids, and DCUMs, that see the $$$ for CS majors and say, "that's for me." But picking a major you hate for the money is why so many kids drop out of "hard" majors.

The things you do to get a CS degree don’t track all that closely to what you do in the working world. In my view the CS curriculum is typically padded with too much theoretical nonsense.

There are millions of software developers. There are a handful writing compilers, operating systems, transaction monitors, developing new languages, etc. The handful use such nonsense every single day. Don't go to CMU SCS/Waterloo/Cornell/MIT unless your ambition is to be one of the handful. You'll never use the nonsense and you'll hate suffering through it.

For whatever reason, the MIT CS kids I know don't seem nearly as stressed as the CMU kids. I have no idea why that is the case, but would imagine it has to do with grading and other policies that relieve the stress. My sample set is very low on both sides.

[Anonymous]

I think the issue here is that there is a career with a lot of lucrative jobs involving computer programming that doesn't require hard computer science. But the discussions here are sometimes lumping the two together.

For example,
Most BS ChemEs are not plumbers
Most BS MechEs are not mechanics
Most BS ElecEs are not electricians
but most BS CS are programmers????

There's an in-between major called Engineering Technology that not as grueling as Engineering but has some higher education that practicians may find useful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What a gross post, OP. "Partied a lot and dated a lot of women"? You think this is appealing? Your circle must very small.

....Yeah, there's no reason why any male college students would find a university with more parties and attractive women appealing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:DD (TJ grad) was waitlisted at CMU CS. Now she studies CS at a T20 college and although considers herself the best CS student in her college class, she knows how far ahead CS-wise her ex-classmates got by studying at CMU and MIT. Their CS classes are much harder than hers, and she has to self-educate in her spare time.

OP, what amount of money are they making?

It is possible that MIT manages the stress in a better way. CMU has very hard grading on a curve...so it is difficult to get an A or a B. At the same time, Stanford CS (as example) basically says everyone will get an A or a B. Having the threat of a C (or lower) hanging over your head can cause massive anxiety vs. knowing that as long as you are trying, you won't get less than a B (and most will get As).

+100
Most of the kids in a program like CMU SCS have never gotten a grade below an A on any high school assignment. The transition into an environment where C's (and below) or 50% & below are handed out freely, and following what the kids believe is "intense" studying (relative to their history), can be soul crushing for them.

It makes you wonder about the kids who are crushing it in these high level classes vs this kid, who seems intelligent enough, but obviously was in a program not suited for his interests. What did these other kids experience in HS that this kid did not?

The kids who are crushing it are not smarter, they are just working harder. The kid who quit very likely never had to work very hard at something in HS, never had to reach out for help, and always had plenty of time for games, reading, and watching videos. When in Florida, the kid had plenty of time for games, reading, and watching videos, as well as partying and women. Meanwhile the kids at CMU were having no fun at all, just grinding away.

Being in a tech program very often means committing to that being your whole life for four years. Not everyone is sufficiently motivated for that.

I would put it another way: if four years of CS is not fun, you should not be majoring in it. Because you are looking at 40+ years of CS if you want to go into that field.

There are a lot of kids, and DCUMs, that see the $$$ for CS majors and say, "that's for me." But picking a major you hate for the money is why so many kids drop out of "hard" majors.

The things you do to get a CS degree don’t track all that closely to what you do in the working world. In my view the CS curriculum is typically padded with too much theoretical nonsense.

Is your "working world" computer science or code monkeying? If the latter, just do an 8 week boot camp, get a bunch of certs, and be well on your way to a 6 figure code monkey job. No need to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars at one of the best universities in the world if you're just writing drivers to operate touchless faucets.

If the former, then you definitely need all that theory. And more.. continuously for 40+ years.

So there seems to be a massive confusion about what a CS degree is for. The "drop out" in the video thinks being a programmer at Facebook is the goal and therefore learning that programming language is what he wants. On the other hand, based on some posters here there seems to be careers / jobs that do require much of the CS education.

So, can someone indicate what the careers in computer science "working world" are? Also, can you get that education in grad school (say you do math, stat, physics, economics or something and then realize you would like to go deeper into CS)?

CS and advanced application thereof seem quite exciting, while the aspirations of a bright student at a top notch school in the video quite frankly seem a bit depressing (to me)?

Desperately trying to interest my DC in something outside my own (admittedly exciting) field to at least consider - any insight would be greatly appreciated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What a gross post, OP. "Partied a lot and dated a lot of women"? You think this is appealing? Your circle must very small.

Hmm. That's the typical college aged male.

Yes apparently these are all “local” or “townie” women. Women attending college do not party, date or show any interest in men. There is a documentary on this. Think it is called “An Officer and a Gentleman”.

:avid Attenborough voice:: And finally, the male enters the hive of the chosen female to carry her off. The female indicates her acceptance of this role by placing the male's headcovering on her own head.

[Anonymous]

I have a BS Computer Engineering (VTech) and an MS Computer Engineering (UVA) in 2010.  I am currently working for a cybersecurity company and I am going to try my best to answer.  My experience might be different from other CS folks and my salary is about 350K per year.  Here we go:
- I use less than 1% of what I learned at VTech and UVA for my current job.  One can say that I could have done it just as well without degrees from VTech and UVA.  99% of what I do I learn on the job,
- I was an Oracle Database Administrator in my previous position and again, one doesn't need a degree to be a good DBA, certainly not a fancy degree.  HOWEVER, if you're the one who writes the code and designs the actual Oracle database (i.e. working for Oracle), yes, those CS courses at VTech and UVA are a must.  For a regular DBA, the answer is NO,
- I am currently in CyberSecurity and I don't use those advanced CS courses for my daily work, far from it.  Most of the cybersecurity courses taught at universities are very "academic" and have very little usage in the real world.  For example, reading packet capture is very sophisticated but 99% of the time, you do NOT need to go deep into that level.  
- Even those "software" engineers who work for AWS, they are more like "coders" and nothing else thus making 99% of what you studied in college unnecessary, unless you work for companies like Cisco Sytems, Palo Alto network, Checkpoint where you actually build the actual software.  In that case, yes a lot of what you learn in college will apply,  
In summary, 99% of CS classes do not apply to most people who work in CS field, only a very few.  YMMV.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have a BS Computer Engineering (VTech) and an MS Computer Engineering (UVA) in 2010.  I am currently working for a cybersecurity company and I am going to try my best to answer.  My experience might be different from other CS folks and my salary is about 350K per year.  Here we go:
- I use less than 1% of what I learned at VTech and UVA for my current job.  One can say that I could have done it just as well without degrees from VTech and UVA.  99% of what I do I learn on the job,
- I was an Oracle Database Administrator in my previous position and again, one doesn't need a degree to be a good DBA, certainly not a fancy degree.  HOWEVER, if you're the one who writes the code and designs the actual Oracle database (i.e. working for Oracle), yes, those CS courses at VTech and UVA are a must.  For a regular DBA, the answer is NO,
- I am currently in CyberSecurity and I don't use those advanced CS courses for my daily work, far from it.  Most of the cybersecurity courses taught at universities are very "academic" and have very little usage in the real world.  For example, reading packet capture is very sophisticated but 99% of the time, you do NOT need to go deep into that level.  
- Even those "software" engineers who work for AWS, they are more like "coders" and nothing else thus making 99% of what you studied in college unnecessary, unless you work for companies like Cisco Sytems, Palo Alto network, Checkpoint where you actually build the actual software.  In that case, yes a lot of what you learn in college will apply,  
In summary, 99% of CS classes do not apply to most people who work in CS field, only a very few.  YMMV.

I find your answer a bit strange. The tech ecosystem has companies that actually create the underlying software (Cloudflare, Checkpoint, Oracle, Open Ai, etc.) and IT consulting companies that implement and monitor this software. Certainly, Oracle and other large computer software have consulting arms in addition to creating the underlying platforms.

It sounds like you work for an IT Consulting company...which is a huge market. It is very possible the IT Services market is much, much larger in $$$$s than the underlying "platform" market. However, it is not 99% of IT spend...it is something much less than that.

So, anyone that is working for a "platform" company will need more in-depth CS knowledge. Companies like say Facebook have proprietary things they develop as well as use platform software...those companies as well will need both true CS folks, as well as the "code monkeys".

I would think the Cybersecurity services market is probably much larger in terms of $$$s charged, then the Cybersecurity platform market. I understand your perspective, but you overestimate when you say "99% of CS classes do not apply to people who work in the CS field"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a BS Computer Engineering (VTech) and an MS Computer Engineering (UVA) in 2010.  I am currently working for a cybersecurity company and I am going to try my best to answer.  My experience might be different from other CS folks and my salary is about 350K per year.  Here we go:
- I use less than 1% of what I learned at VTech and UVA for my current job.  One can say that I could have done it just as well without degrees from VTech and UVA.  99% of what I do I learn on the job,
- I was an Oracle Database Administrator in my previous position and again, one doesn't need a degree to be a good DBA, certainly not a fancy degree.  HOWEVER, if you're the one who writes the code and designs the actual Oracle database (i.e. working for Oracle), yes, those CS courses at VTech and UVA are a must.  For a regular DBA, the answer is NO,
- I am currently in CyberSecurity and I don't use those advanced CS courses for my daily work, far from it.  Most of the cybersecurity courses taught at universities are very "academic" and have very little usage in the real world.  For example, reading packet capture is very sophisticated but 99% of the time, you do NOT need to go deep into that level.  
- Even those "software" engineers who work for AWS, they are more like "coders" and nothing else thus making 99% of what you studied in college unnecessary, unless you work for companies like Cisco Sytems, Palo Alto network, Checkpoint where you actually build the actual software.  In that case, yes a lot of what you learn in college will apply,  
In summary, 99% of CS classes do not apply to most people who work in CS field, only a very few.  YMMV.

I find your answer a bit strange. The tech ecosystem has companies that actually create the underlying software (Cloudflare, Checkpoint, Oracle, Open Ai, etc.) and IT consulting companies that implement and monitor this software. Certainly, Oracle and other large computer software have consulting arms in addition to creating the underlying platforms.

It sounds like you work for an IT Consulting company...which is a huge market. It is very possible the IT Services market is much, much larger in $$$$s than the underlying "platform" market. However, it is not 99% of IT spend...it is something much less than that.

So, anyone that is working for a "platform" company will need more in-depth CS knowledge. Companies like say Facebook have proprietary things they develop as well as use platform software...those companies as well will need both true CS folks, as well as the "code monkeys".

I would think the Cybersecurity services market is probably much larger in terms of $$$s charged, then the Cybersecurity platform market. I understand your perspective, but you overestimate when you say "99% of CS classes do not apply to people who work in the CS field"

When I was working for a company similar to checkpoint software, the company had Engineering, software developers, professional/consulting, TAC support, and sales divisions. I can tell you that there are less than 20 Engineers and software developers in the company of 2000 people to work on the "platform".  Those people need to understand CS inside and out.  For everyone else, myself included and I was in the consulting/professional division, none of us required to have deep knowledge of CS such as advanced algorithms, machine theory, etc..  99% of CS courses I studied in college were not useful with the job that I did.