Crazy to consider moving to Europe?

[Anonymous]

Op here, thanks so much for all the thoughts. I wasn't saying you just get citizenship after 5 years, but that is the point where you can be eligible and begin the other parts of the process like language testing, background checks, proof of adequate salaries, etc.

[Anonymous]

As much as I think I’d enjoy the adventure of living abroad for a few years, I don’t think I’d want to move permanently.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We did 6 years in Northern Italy and I want to go back every, single, day. I just loved it. My kids loved it. There were plenty of frustrations and annoyances but it was worth it. That said, I have traveled to London, Berlin and Sweden but have no idea what it’s like to live there. If you go, you must be very open minded and let go of your expectations for lots of things.

This is true. It can be tough to get things done in London, by American standards. Customer service just isn't as good. Italy is worse, but even the UK has that issue. Plus, there are details like the washers and dryers don't work as well, the stove might be quirky, etc. Little stuff that doesn't seem like a big deal but may be frustrating at times.

[Anonymous]

Absolutely! We made the move to Frankfurt Germany when the kids were 8 and 5. Best decision ever! We lived there for 5+ years and loved every minute of it (after the first 6 months of getting acclimated….it does take some time). The kids attended an international school and their primary/elementary/middle school education was phenomenal! Lots of outdoor time! The kids have traveled all over Europe, have made numerous friends from other countries (and developed life long friendships), and have a really strong educational base. They transitioned back into US middle school/high school easily. Also, family chose to visit us often and we flew back to the US every other year. Best wishes!

[Anonymous]

We are considering a move as well, but it would be for a fixed amount of time (2-3 years) and in a less glamorous (but also less expensive) European city. I’m kinda stoked, kids are at a good age for it (ES).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Absolutely! We made the move to Frankfurt Germany when the kids were 8 and 5. Best decision ever! We lived there for 5+ years and loved every minute of it (after the first 6 months of getting acclimated….it does take some time). The kids attended an international school and their primary/elementary/middle school education was phenomenal! Lots of outdoor time! The kids have traveled all over Europe, have made numerous friends from other countries (and developed life long friendships), and have a really strong educational base. They transitioned back into US middle school/high school easily. Also, family chose to visit us often and we flew back to the US every other year. Best wishes!

Thank you so much for sharing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DH works for a Swedish company and could basically put in to relocate to Stockholm, London, or Berlin at any point. Our kids are currently 5 and 2 years old. We've been throwing around the idea of moving to the EU since DH would already have a job, I own a small business and could easily work from anywhere, and the kids are not yet really established in the school district or with friends/activities. One major perk we discussed is if we stayed 5+ years and became dual citizens, the kids could go to college anywhere in the EU. Also, we're attracted to the work-life balance, opportunity to travel, healthcare, childcare available. If my DH moved to the European side of the company, he would get August off every year on top of his regular generous PTO. We do currently live within 15 mins of all the grandparents which would be a big change, but DH's parents are in the process of building their retirement home a few hours away. The kids don't have any cousins yet (Dh and I are both the oldest in our families).

Any thoughts or experiences?

I don't think you will necessarily be given citizenship after 5 years, and being an EU citizen doesn't give you the right to college in any EU country. Do you speak German or Swedish? It's no picnic to pick up a new language at your age. Would these countries give you a work visa?

This. People - especially Americans - tend to forget about the whole language thing. Yes, the rest of the world speaks English and of course you can get by with English only or just conversational Swedish/German, but you can never truly integrate into a society without knowing the language. You will exist on the periphery and will be an outside observer to the country. Language learning and complete assimilation is hard at 40+, and most Americans just aren't up for that. They seem to be ready for an "adventure" and not the true life of an immigrant. True assimilation is tough. And it can be very lonely.

[Anonymous]

Op here and I agree we'd work hard to learn the language to the best of our abilities even if locals speak English. We'd put our kids right into local schools/nursery because they are young enough to still soak that up. DH and I are well traveled, respectful, and eager to learn. We backpacked the world for 4 summers in college together including doing work exchanges (helping on farms/orchards/vineyards in exchange for lodging) and couch surfing. We are avid home exchangers and have done home swaps in 25+ countries, including 6 countries with our kid(s) so even though they are young, they understand going somewhere new with different culture, trying new food, playing with kids when they don't have the same language, etc. We enrolled our oldest in a park district program in Spain while we were on a home swap there for 6 weeks and she absolutely loved it.

I do hear you all about true assimilation though. I'd imagine each of those locations has a solid expat community, but we'd love to eventually form genuine friendships with locals as well. I definitely thrive within an active community so it's definitely something to consider. DH does know his Swedish counterparts at work well and I've met a few of them and their spouses at his work events so maybe that could be a starting point. The London and German offices he currently doesn't have much overlap with so that would be more new.

I honestly don't know what we would do with our house though. We bought it in 2016 with 2.5% mortgage rate so it would be really hard to give that up, but also seems daunting to be a landlord from abroad. We also have a large dog. So much to consider.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Doesn’t Sweden have like 6 hours of daylight in the winter?

This. I absolutely love it there, but you really have to know what you’re getting into weather-wise.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Op here and I agree we'd work hard to learn the language to the best of our abilities even if locals speak English. We'd put our kids right into local schools/nursery because they are young enough to still soak that up. DH and I are well traveled, respectful, and eager to learn. We backpacked the world for 4 summers in college together including doing work exchanges (helping on farms/orchards/vineyards in exchange for lodging) and couch surfing. We are avid home exchangers and have done home swaps in 25+ countries, including 6 countries with our kid(s) so even though they are young, they understand going somewhere new with different culture, trying new food, playing with kids when they don't have the same language, etc. We enrolled our oldest in a park district program in Spain while we were on a home swap there for 6 weeks and she absolutely loved it.

I do hear you all about true assimilation though. I'd imagine each of those locations has a solid expat community, but we'd love to eventually form genuine friendships with locals as well. I definitely thrive within an active community so it's definitely something to consider. DH does know his Swedish counterparts at work well and I've met a few of them and their spouses at his work events so maybe that could be a starting point. The London and German offices he currently doesn't have much overlap with so that would be more new.

I honestly don't know what we would do with our house though. We bought it in 2016 with 2.5% mortgage rate so it would be really hard to give that up, but also seems daunting to be a landlord from abroad. We also have a large dog. So much to consider.

Oof. I don't know what I'd do about the dog. But being a landlord isn't hard if you just get a property manager. They take a cut but with that interest rate it would be worth it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Stockholm has got to be one of if not THE best city in the world to raise children. It is so safe and beautiful and family friendly. And everyone speaks English, too.

I would do it in a millisecond!

[Anonymous]

I love London and have lived there many years. That said, moving there with school-aged kids is not the easiest. Housing is expensive, finding good schools is a hassle (unless you have a large amount of money, in which case it is fine). Pre or post-kids, definitely a no-brainer.

So with this in mind, I would lean towards Berlin or Stockholm. Never been to the latter but I think Berlin is one of the best places to live in Germany, certainly more liberal, open and tolerant than much of the country. Elsewhere Germans can tend to be quite judgmental, which can get a bit wearying.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here and I agree we'd work hard to learn the language to the best of our abilities even if locals speak English. We'd put our kids right into local schools/nursery because they are young enough to still soak that up. DH and I are well traveled, respectful, and eager to learn. We backpacked the world for 4 summers in college together including doing work exchanges (helping on farms/orchards/vineyards in exchange for lodging) and couch surfing. We are avid home exchangers and have done home swaps in 25+ countries, including 6 countries with our kid(s) so even though they are young, they understand going somewhere new with different culture, trying new food, playing with kids when they don't have the same language, etc. We enrolled our oldest in a park district program in Spain while we were on a home swap there for 6 weeks and she absolutely loved it.

I do hear you all about true assimilation though. I'd imagine each of those locations has a solid expat community, but we'd love to eventually form genuine friendships with locals as well. I definitely thrive within an active community so it's definitely something to consider. DH does know his Swedish counterparts at work well and I've met a few of them and their spouses at his work events so maybe that could be a starting point. The London and German offices he currently doesn't have much overlap with so that would be more new.

I honestly don't know what we would do with our house though. We bought it in 2016 with 2.5% mortgage rate so it would be really hard to give that up, but also seems daunting to be a landlord from abroad. We also have a large dog. So much to consider.

Oof. I don't know what I'd do about the dog. But being a landlord isn't hard if you just get a property manager. They take a cut but with that interest rate it would be worth it.

If you're ok with the dog in cargo (I am not, but people do it) there are transport companies that manage shipping dogs overseas. There are also some private flights (K9 Jets comes to mind but I think there are others) that allow you to bring your dog of any size in the cabin with you. It's prohibitively expensive for something like a vacation, but I would totally do it for a multi-year or permanent move. I think it runs about 8k.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, they were wildly more rational than the US during COVID. Two year olds in Europe in 2021 are ten-fold ahead of American 4 year olds today.

Maybe they think they are, but they aren’t. The main thing they have over us is a little extra math and skill with languages, but one sign of how little of the extra math sticks is their inability to calculate tips.

No, they objectively are given every single metric coming out of American public schools in 2023. Crazy how those Europeans just took a wild guess that out forcing people who can’t developmentally talk yet to wear fabric over their mouths for years wouldn’t actually good for society. And ended up being right, who would’ve known!

[Anonymous]

100% yes. I’m sure you know this already but do everything you can ahead of time to make it a success: research cities based on your lifestyle, then even more important is neighborhoods. London for example is MASSIVE - 100 villages squished together to form one city. Join an expat group on Facebook, or find locals, and ask questions!