This is why open enrollment and 50% minimum grades need to stop

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/69e8a356-393a-11ee-be2e-0cc7309dc5b8?shareToken=3a5551270297afd4971127896429e48f

Colleges in the UK are experiencing record drop-out rates ending up in students saddled with debt and no degree due to lax grading policies.

We have the same thing here in districts that adhere to open enrollment policies and 50% minimum grades.

Open enrollment is purportedly designed to prevent teacher bias from shutting out students from courses, but in fact ensures that students who aren't ready for the course will sign up for it anyway, resulting in pressure on teachers to lower standards and/or inflate grades while the student learns little or nothing. If you're worried about teacher bias , give all students automatically graded competency exams that they have to score specific grades on to enroll in specific classes.

It doesn't help disadvantaged students in the long run to just give them a pass. Everyone has to show competency at some point down the line. It's also deeply prejudicial to cast a shadow on the achievement of bright, hardworking students from disadvantaged backgrounds who absolutely belong in those courses and legitimately earned their grade to lump them in with privileged but not too bright nor studious kids who also milk these policies.

50% minima also outrageously inflate averages and mask lack of mastery.

These policies are bad for the country on so many levels.

Not to bring people off their talking points, but what exactly is "open enrollment?" I'm assuming it refers to practices that allows students to enroll in advanced courses in MS/HS without meeting the prerequisites for them, or perhaps by not even having formal prerequisites?

To what degree is this being practiced? (From personal experience up to MS in VA I have to say I haven't seen it: access to advanced Math and English, for instance, is strictly gatekept, much to the detriment of many DCUM posters who believe their child was misplaced. Is this something that starts in HS? Which courses are open enrollment in that they don't require prerequisites? Do they allows kid who haven't taken Algebra I to take Calculus? Or can someone take French AP without having taken French I through IV?)

Please explain what the actual problem is for those not familiar with it.

My experience is FCPS middle school math. Anyone who passes math 7 seems to skip prealgebra and enroll in algebra, whether they passed with an A and a 570 or a C and a 401. I have classes full of 8th grade algebra students who can’t solve a 2 step equation every year.

Meanwhile admin says, “Isn’t open enrollment great? It allows kids to challenge themselves!”

Exactly. In LCPS we have this problem even in 7th grade Algebra 1, which is more common here. Parents just want their kid in the "highest math" regardless of whether or not their kid can handle it. I'm also shocked how many of them don't think down the path that now their child will need to take a math class beyond Calc1 in 12th grade. I hope you teach and grade to the curriculum PP and don't slow down/water down the class for the kids who shouldn't be there.

This is what happens when top colleges care more about what class you’re registered for as a senior than your SAT math score.

Your SAT math score has always just tested up to geometry--it's just not that meaningful anymore for selective colleges.

If you don’t think too SAT scores still help get into to colleges, I’ve got a bridge to sell you. TO is for low scores, not high ones.

At top (like, top 20) schools, no SAT score is high enough to be impressive. A 1600 will not get you into Caltech.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:50% is an F. An F is an F. Is an F.

you want to demand some kind of Super F?

No it isn’t. A 50% inflates the students GPA. If a student doesn’t show up to class and does absolutely nothing the entire year that student deserves a zero.

Agreed. As it is, the student could rip the test in half in front of the teacher and throw it in the trash and would still get a 50.

Why is that a problem? 50 still fails. Did you ever decide how hard you needed to work on an assignment based on how heavily it was weighted?

It's a problem because some students actually try and barely score that. They learn they shouldn't do anything and basically get the same grade. School isn't just about learning content. It's more about learning skills and schools shouldn't be in the business of rewards kids for doing nothing.

My neighbor teaches and she said every year she has to pass students who don't show up and then hand in 1-3 assignments at the end of the semester. She said she couldn't pick those students out of a lineup because they've never attended class. Since attendance isn't part of the grade, they are free to skip classes for the entire semester if they want (and they do). They hand in a few pretty crappy assignments and get a C or D. Meanwhile, some students show up and try their best and end up with the same grade. Why are we giving anyone a passing grade who doesn't attend class? What are they learning? They are learning that they can go through life not showing up. Sadly, real life will teach them the opposite. Schools should be more about teaching content. They should be equally about teaching life skills.

Is this actually true though? Don't teachers just recalibrate and make it so the scale is just compressed? If 50 is equal to no work, some work even if very misguided is 65, crappy work is 75, etc. This is the basis of grade inflation.

Bingo. We have a winner. Grade inflation is a huge problem in American high schools. Then kids go off to college and suffer a rude awakening.

Unless the get into some of the selective colleges that keep the grade inflation going, then it falls to the employer to let the kid know they are nothing special.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:50% is an F. An F is an F. Is an F.

you want to demand some kind of Super F?

No it isn’t. A 50% inflates the students GPA. If a student doesn’t show up to class and does absolutely nothing the entire year that student deserves a zero.

Agreed. As it is, the student could rip the test in half in front of the teacher and throw it in the trash and would still get a 50.

Why is that a problem? 50 still fails. Did you ever decide how hard you needed to work on an assignment based on how heavily it was weighted?

It's a problem because some students actually try and barely score that. They learn they shouldn't do anything and basically get the same grade. School isn't just about learning content. It's more about learning skills and schools shouldn't be in the business of rewards kids for doing nothing.

My neighbor teaches and she said every year she has to pass students who don't show up and then hand in 1-3 assignments at the end of the semester. She said she couldn't pick those students out of a lineup because they've never attended class. Since attendance isn't part of the grade, they are free to skip classes for the entire semester if they want (and they do). They hand in a few pretty crappy assignments and get a C or D. Meanwhile, some students show up and try their best and end up with the same grade. Why are we giving anyone a passing grade who doesn't attend class? What are they learning? They are learning that they can go through life not showing up. Sadly, real life will teach them the opposite. Schools should be more about teaching content. They should be equally about teaching life skills.

Is this actually true though? Don't teachers just recalibrate and make it so the scale is just compressed? If 50 is equal to no work, some work even if very misguided is 65, crappy work is 75, etc. This is the basis of grade inflation.

Bingo. We have a winner. Grade inflation is a huge problem in American high schools. Then kids go off to college and suffer a rude awakening.

Unless the get into some of the selective colleges that keep the grade inflation going, then it falls to the employer to let the kid know they are nothing special.

Teachers don't do that though. Do you have children?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:50% is an F. An F is an F. Is an F.

you want to demand some kind of Super F?

No it isn’t. A 50% inflates the students GPA. If a student doesn’t show up to class and does absolutely nothing the entire year that student deserves a zero.

Agreed. As it is, the student could rip the test in half in front of the teacher and throw it in the trash and would still get a 50.

Why is that a problem? 50 still fails. Did you ever decide how hard you needed to work on an assignment based on how heavily it was weighted?

It's a problem because some students actually try and barely score that. They learn they shouldn't do anything and basically get the same grade. School isn't just about learning content. It's more about learning skills and schools shouldn't be in the business of rewards kids for doing nothing.

My neighbor teaches and she said every year she has to pass students who don't show up and then hand in 1-3 assignments at the end of the semester. She said she couldn't pick those students out of a lineup because they've never attended class. Since attendance isn't part of the grade, they are free to skip classes for the entire semester if they want (and they do). They hand in a few pretty crappy assignments and get a C or D. Meanwhile, some students show up and try their best and end up with the same grade. Why are we giving anyone a passing grade who doesn't attend class? What are they learning? They are learning that they can go through life not showing up. Sadly, real life will teach them the opposite. Schools should be more about teaching content. They should be equally about teaching life skills.

Is this actually true though? Don't teachers just recalibrate and make it so the scale is just compressed? If 50 is equal to no work, some work even if very misguided is 65, crappy work is 75, etc. This is the basis of grade inflation.

Bingo. We have a winner. Grade inflation is a huge problem in American high schools. Then kids go off to college and suffer a rude awakening.

Unless the get into some of the selective colleges that keep the grade inflation going, then it falls to the employer to let the kid know they are nothing special.

Teachers don't do that though. Do you have children?

Yes, I have children. Do all teachers do that no. Are many in school systems that essential force that to happen due to administration policies, yes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:50% is an F. An F is an F. Is an F.

you want to demand some kind of Super F?

No it isn’t. A 50% inflates the students GPA. If a student doesn’t show up to class and does absolutely nothing the entire year that student deserves a zero.

Agreed. As it is, the student could rip the test in half in front of the teacher and throw it in the trash and would still get a 50.

Why is that a problem? 50 still fails. Did you ever decide how hard you needed to work on an assignment based on how heavily it was weighted?

It's a problem because some students actually try and barely score that. They learn they shouldn't do anything and basically get the same grade. School isn't just about learning content. It's more about learning skills and schools shouldn't be in the business of rewards kids for doing nothing.

My neighbor teaches and she said every year she has to pass students who don't show up and then hand in 1-3 assignments at the end of the semester. She said she couldn't pick those students out of a lineup because they've never attended class. Since attendance isn't part of the grade, they are free to skip classes for the entire semester if they want (and they do). They hand in a few pretty crappy assignments and get a C or D. Meanwhile, some students show up and try their best and end up with the same grade. Why are we giving anyone a passing grade who doesn't attend class? What are they learning? They are learning that they can go through life not showing up. Sadly, real life will teach them the opposite. Schools should be more about teaching content. They should be equally about teaching life skills.

Is this actually true though? Don't teachers just recalibrate and make it so the scale is just compressed? If 50 is equal to no work, some work even if very misguided is 65, crappy work is 75, etc. This is the basis of grade inflation.

Bingo. We have a winner. Grade inflation is a huge problem in American high schools. Then kids go off to college and suffer a rude awakening.

Unless the get into some of the selective colleges that keep the grade inflation going, then it falls to the employer to let the kid know they are nothing special.

Teachers don't do that though. Do you have children?

Yes, I have children. Do all teachers do that no. Are many in school systems that essential force that to happen due to administration policies, yes.

No. At the schools where 0-is-50, the floor isn't raised. Students who do the assignment or test badly can get a 60 or 70, same as if 0-were-0. They aren't encouraged to keep doing that though when a 0-is-50 is close to their grade but without any effort.

It doesn't seem like you have children. Or pay attention to these issues.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:50% is an F. An F is an F. Is an F.

you want to demand some kind of Super F?

No it isn’t. A 50% inflates the students GPA. If a student doesn’t show up to class and does absolutely nothing the entire year that student deserves a zero.

Agreed. As it is, the student could rip the test in half in front of the teacher and throw it in the trash and would still get a 50.

Why is that a problem? 50 still fails. Did you ever decide how hard you needed to work on an assignment based on how heavily it was weighted?

It's a problem because some students actually try and barely score that. They learn they shouldn't do anything and basically get the same grade. School isn't just about learning content. It's more about learning skills and schools shouldn't be in the business of rewards kids for doing nothing.

My neighbor teaches and she said every year she has to pass students who don't show up and then hand in 1-3 assignments at the end of the semester. She said she couldn't pick those students out of a lineup because they've never attended class. Since attendance isn't part of the grade, they are free to skip classes for the entire semester if they want (and they do). They hand in a few pretty crappy assignments and get a C or D. Meanwhile, some students show up and try their best and end up with the same grade. Why are we giving anyone a passing grade who doesn't attend class? What are they learning? They are learning that they can go through life not showing up. Sadly, real life will teach them the opposite. Schools should be more about teaching content. They should be equally about teaching life skills.

Is this actually true though? Don't teachers just recalibrate and make it so the scale is just compressed? If 50 is equal to no work, some work even if very misguided is 65, crappy work is 75, etc. This is the basis of grade inflation.

Bingo. We have a winner. Grade inflation is a huge problem in American high schools. Then kids go off to college and suffer a rude awakening.

Unless the get into some of the selective colleges that keep the grade inflation going, then it falls to the employer to let the kid know they are nothing special.

Teachers don't do that though. Do you have children?

Yes, I have children. Do all teachers do that no. Are many in school systems that essential force that to happen due to administration policies, yes.

No. At the schools where 0-is-50, the floor isn't raised. Students who do the assignment or test badly can get a 60 or 70, same as if 0-were-0. They aren't encouraged to keep doing that though when a 0-is-50 is close to their grade but without any effort.

It doesn't seem like you have children. Or pay attention to these issues.

I have children and pay very close attention. I have seen the grade inflation caused by it in my kids school system for the past few years.

I am glad you teach in a system where it doesn’t happen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/69e8a356-393a-11ee-be2e-0cc7309dc5b8?shareToken=3a5551270297afd4971127896429e48f

Colleges in the UK are experiencing record drop-out rates ending up in students saddled with debt and no degree due to lax grading policies.

We have the same thing here in districts that adhere to open enrollment policies and 50% minimum grades.

Open enrollment is purportedly designed to prevent teacher bias from shutting out students from courses, but in fact ensures that students who aren't ready for the course will sign up for it anyway, resulting in pressure on teachers to lower standards and/or inflate grades while the student learns little or nothing. If you're worried about teacher bias , give all students automatically graded competency exams that they have to score specific grades on to enroll in specific classes.

It doesn't help disadvantaged students in the long run to just give them a pass. Everyone has to show competency at some point down the line. It's also deeply prejudicial to cast a shadow on the achievement of bright, hardworking students from disadvantaged backgrounds who absolutely belong in those courses and legitimately earned their grade to lump them in with privileged but not too bright nor studious kids who also milk these policies.

50% minima also outrageously inflate averages and mask lack of mastery.

These policies are bad for the country on so many levels.

Not to bring people off their talking points, but what exactly is "open enrollment?" I'm assuming it refers to practices that allows students to enroll in advanced courses in MS/HS without meeting the prerequisites for them, or perhaps by not even having formal prerequisites?

To what degree is this being practiced? (From personal experience up to MS in VA I have to say I haven't seen it: access to advanced Math and English, for instance, is strictly gatekept, much to the detriment of many DCUM posters who believe their child was misplaced. Is this something that starts in HS? Which courses are open enrollment in that they don't require prerequisites? Do they allows kid who haven't taken Algebra I to take Calculus? Or can someone take French AP without having taken French I through IV?)

Please explain what the actual problem is for those not familiar with it.

My experience is FCPS middle school math. Anyone who passes math 7 seems to skip prealgebra and enroll in algebra, whether they passed with an A and a 570 or a C and a 401. I have classes full of 8th grade algebra students who can’t solve a 2 step equation every year.

Meanwhile admin says, “Isn’t open enrollment great? It allows kids to challenge themselves!”

Exactly. In LCPS we have this problem even in 7th grade Algebra 1, which is more common here. Parents just want their kid in the "highest math" regardless of whether or not their kid can handle it. I'm also shocked how many of them don't think down the path that now their child will need to take a math class beyond Calc1 in 12th grade. I hope you teach and grade to the curriculum PP and don't slow down/water down the class for the kids who shouldn't be there.

This is what happens when top colleges care more about what class you’re registered for as a senior than your SAT math score.

Your SAT math score has always just tested up to geometry--it's just not that meaningful anymore for selective colleges.

If you don’t think too SAT scores still help get into to colleges, I’ve got a bridge to sell you. TO is for low scores, not high ones.

At top (like, top 20) schools, no SAT score is high enough to be impressive. A 1600 will not get you into Caltech.

For schools in the top 100 (even too 50) having a high, not perfect but high, SAY score absolutely helps. Anyway saying otherwise clearly thinks their kid can’t do it.

[Anonymous]

It's very simple a zero equals a 50 but 50 percent completion does not equal a zero usually its guessanominated to about a 75 however mastery will be about in the 20% range earning the student about 81.2%. Get it now get to grading! The great thing is college requirements will require having a pencil and a social security number for the blissfully ignorant and the debt that you will be jumping into. Good luck!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's very simple a zero equals a 50 but 50 percent completion does not equal a zero usually its guessanominated to about a 75 however mastery will be about in the 20% range earning the student about 81.2%. Get it now get to grading! The great thing is college requirements will require having a pencil and a social security number for the blissfully ignorant and the debt that you will be jumping into. Good luck!

I’m sure this was an autocorrect thing, but … “guessanominated” ?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:50% is an F. An F is an F. Is an F.

you want to demand some kind of Super F?

No it isn’t. A 50% inflates the students GPA. If a student doesn’t show up to class and does absolutely nothing the entire year that student deserves a zero.

Agreed. As it is, the student could rip the test in half in front of the teacher and throw it in the trash and would still get a 50.

That would be a disciplinary matter, and should be addressed as such. Having a minimum score of 50 is just math, no different than how each section of the SAT has a minimum score of 200. Not every scale has to go to zero to be useful.

Except it wouldn't be a disciplinary matter. Maybe, MAYBE a dean would talk the kid about his/her "feelings" and ask them not to do it again, but that's it.

The kid will come back with candy, too. There’s no disciplinary action anymore.

Students know how to play the system. Plenty of students are only going to reach for the bar you set, and they won’t go a millimeter further. I’ve worked with many students who have realized they can submit almost empty papers for their 50%. They then do a 70% job on one big assignment at the end of the quarter and end up passing. In truth, they worked about 2 hours total all quarter and spent the rest of their time on their phone. (No consequences for that allowed, either.)

Imagine if we raised the bar a bit. This child will now be motivated to do a bit more.

50% minimums encourage students’ low expectations of themselves. That’s all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:50% is an F. An F is an F. Is an F.

you want to demand some kind of Super F?

No it isn’t. A 50% inflates the students GPA. If a student doesn’t show up to class and does absolutely nothing the entire year that student deserves a zero.

Agreed. As it is, the student could rip the test in half in front of the teacher and throw it in the trash and would still get a 50.

That would be a disciplinary matter, and should be addressed as such. Having a minimum score of 50 is just math, no different than how each section of the SAT has a minimum score of 200. Not every scale has to go to zero to be useful.

Except it wouldn't be a disciplinary matter. Maybe, MAYBE a dean would talk the kid about his/her "feelings" and ask them not to do it again, but that's it.

The kid will come back with candy, too. There’s no disciplinary action anymore.

Students know how to play the system. Plenty of students are only going to reach for the bar you set, and they won’t go a millimeter further. I’ve worked with many students who have realized they can submit almost empty papers for their 50%. They then do a 70% job on one big assignment at the end of the quarter and end up passing. In truth, they worked about 2 hours total all quarter and spent the rest of their time on their phone. (No consequences for that allowed, either.)

Imagine if we raised the bar a bit. This child will now be motivated to do a bit more.

50% minimums encourage students’ low expectations of themselves. That’s all.

And then then they become one of the millions of people who work at Burger King or Enterprise and life goes on.
Or they have non academic talent that becomes a career.

Or your higher standard systems flunks them and they end up in the same place or they drop out and spend all day doing drugs and crime.

[Anonymous]

The trends in schooling—grade inflation, lack of consequences—didn’t start overnight. They were beginning to emerge at least 15 years ago. A lot of it is in response to adversarial meetings with parents and to lawsuits around the civil rights of kids with IEPs and BIPs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:50% is an F. An F is an F. Is an F.

you want to demand some kind of Super F?

No it isn’t. A 50% inflates the students GPA. If a student doesn’t show up to class and does absolutely nothing the entire year that student deserves a zero.

Agreed. As it is, the student could rip the test in half in front of the teacher and throw it in the trash and would still get a 50.

Why is that a problem? 50 still fails. Did you ever decide how hard you needed to work on an assignment based on how heavily it was weighted?

It's a problem because some students actually try and barely score that. They learn they shouldn't do anything and basically get the same grade. School isn't just about learning content. It's more about learning skills and schools shouldn't be in the business of rewards kids for doing nothing.

My neighbor teaches and she said every year she has to pass students who don't show up and then hand in 1-3 assignments at the end of the semester. She said she couldn't pick those students out of a lineup because they've never attended class. Since attendance isn't part of the grade, they are free to skip classes for the entire semester if they want (and they do). They hand in a few pretty crappy assignments and get a C or D. Meanwhile, some students show up and try their best and end up with the same grade. Why are we giving anyone a passing grade who doesn't attend class? What are they learning? They are learning that they can go through life not showing up. Sadly, real life will teach them the opposite. Schools should be more about teaching content. They should be equally about teaching life skills.

Is this actually true though? Don't teachers just recalibrate and make it so the scale is just compressed? If 50 is equal to no work, some work even if very misguided is 65, crappy work is 75, etc. This is the basis of grade inflation.

Bingo. We have a winner. Grade inflation is a huge problem in American high schools. Then kids go off to college and suffer a rude awakening.

Unless the get into some of the selective colleges that keep the grade inflation going, then it falls to the employer to let the kid know they are nothing special.

Will they get a rude awakening though? Colleges are lowering their standards as well. I'm an attorney and we have hired interns from Georgetown law that can barely write a paragraph.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:50% is an F. An F is an F. Is an F.

you want to demand some kind of Super F?

No it isn’t. A 50% inflates the students GPA. If a student doesn’t show up to class and does absolutely nothing the entire year that student deserves a zero.

Agreed. As it is, the student could rip the test in half in front of the teacher and throw it in the trash and would still get a 50.

Why is that a problem? 50 still fails. Did you ever decide how hard you needed to work on an assignment based on how heavily it was weighted?

It's a problem because some students actually try and barely score that. They learn they shouldn't do anything and basically get the same grade. School isn't just about learning content. It's more about learning skills and schools shouldn't be in the business of rewards kids for doing nothing.

My neighbor teaches and she said every year she has to pass students who don't show up and then hand in 1-3 assignments at the end of the semester. She said she couldn't pick those students out of a lineup because they've never attended class. Since attendance isn't part of the grade, they are free to skip classes for the entire semester if they want (and they do). They hand in a few pretty crappy assignments and get a C or D. Meanwhile, some students show up and try their best and end up with the same grade. Why are we giving anyone a passing grade who doesn't attend class? What are they learning? They are learning that they can go through life not showing up. Sadly, real life will teach them the opposite. Schools should be more about teaching content. They should be equally about teaching life skills.

Is this actually true though? Don't teachers just recalibrate and make it so the scale is just compressed? If 50 is equal to no work, some work even if very misguided is 65, crappy work is 75, etc. This is the basis of grade inflation.

Bingo. We have a winner. Grade inflation is a huge problem in American high schools. Then kids go off to college and suffer a rude awakening.

Unless the get into some of the selective colleges that keep the grade inflation going, then it falls to the employer to let the kid know they are nothing special.

Will they get a rude awakening though? Colleges are lowering their standards as well. I'm an attorney and we have hired interns from Georgetown law that can barely write a paragraph.

See second paragraph of my previous comment. Looks like Georgetown is passing the problem on to future employers.

[Anonymous]

Colleges are well aware of grade inflation.