Religion and Science - Barbour’s dialogue model represents wise approach

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^^^

Apart from fighting extreme poverty, another area where religion and science can collab is better understanding Just War Theory and Practice in modern contexts. Just War theory was originated by St Augustine in fourth century and refined by St Aquinas in Middle Ages and has been employed by many countries over hundreds of years to shape their war responses. It emphasizes that wars of aggression should be presumed to be immoral unless in cases of self defense and that civilian loss and non military targets should be avoided.

Now modern warfare can operate so differently with drones/ nuclear arms/ chemical warfare and cyber attacks. Science and religion could dialogue to propose moral limits for many forms of modern war fare.

Much of the non Western world is very religious and many people tend to trust religious leaders more than scientific leaders/ politicians. Again, religion and science could engage in dialogue to figure out the best ways to serve many people facing unprecedented challenges related to climate change.

So…social science, not physical science?

OP again -

Science can help faith leaders who partner with other local leaders to help alleviate poverty in many ways. I would imagine social science is important as well for understanding demographic needs of their populations. Hard science is also needed for volunteer medical clinics such as mobile child wellness clinics in rural areas (even just monitoring weight and heights can detect developmental issues, providing basic medical assistance and dental care as well as vaccines).

Like many things in life factual science based knowledge and services often needs softer delivery with human touches locals can relate to. In many parts of the world, religious leaders can help with garnering trust. In fact, I have lived in places where it is only religious groups providing health and education services. It could help if they collaborate with government agencies and science based agencies.

So that's just regular science applied to various environments that happen to be religious.

Science is still science -- it's not fundamentally changed or explained by the supernatural. The concepts are still independent, compartmentalized.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^^ OP
I am Not interested in arguing about US politics in the religion forum and did not get involved in that except to say that many mainstream Christians are wary of prosperity gospel adherents/ TV preachers/ and white Christian nationalists who misuse religion to spread hatred and division.

I am a firm believer in division of church and state but can see there are areas where religion and science can collaborate to help people in need.

Right, let’s not talk about regular Americans contributing to society via their faith. Let’s not point out the hypocrisy of pp claiming religious leaders are wealthier than elected officials (google shows that’s patently false) and never speak of the political class using religion as a positive attribute in their personal lives, let’s only talk about how religion is bad.

And a multi-page thread attacking republicans for being white supremacy advocates and supporting theocratic government.

And a multi-thread claiming Jesus is a woke liberal, and would agree with democrats and their policies. And that the legislation touted by democrats is effectively what Jesus would want. (Actual quotes from posters in both threads.)

" border="0" class="embeddedImage" />


And Pew shows the people who know about the theory of White Christian Supremacy/Theology are most likely atheists. Somehow the Christians aren’t aware of their evil intentions- yet atheists know about it, definitely.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^ OP
I am Not interested in arguing about US politics in the religion forum and did not get involved in that except to say that many mainstream Christians are wary of prosperity gospel adherents/ TV preachers/ and white Christian nationalists who misuse religion to spread hatred and division.

I am a firm believer in division of church and state but can see there are areas where religion and science can collaborate to help people in need.

Right, let’s not talk about regular Americans contributing to society via their faith. Let’s not point out the hypocrisy of pp claiming religious leaders are wealthier than elected officials (google shows that’s patently false) and never speak of the political class using religion as a positive attribute in their personal lives, let’s only talk about how religion is bad.

And a multi-page thread attacking republicans for being white supremacy advocates and supporting theocratic government.

And a multi-thread claiming Jesus is a woke liberal, and would agree with democrats and their policies. And that the legislation touted by democrats is effectively what Jesus would want. (Actual quotes from posters in both threads.)

" border="0" class="embeddedImage" />


And Pew shows the people who know about the theory of White Christian Supremacy/Theology are most likely atheists. Somehow the Christians aren’t aware of their evil intentions- yet atheists know about it, definitely.

OP - I did not get involved in that and am sad the thread has been hijacked. I am leaving the thread now.

My apologies if anyone felt attacked. The thread was intended to highlight the work of a brilliant theological physicist who argues for constructive dialogue between science and religion

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^ OP
I am Not interested in arguing about US politics in the religion forum and did not get involved in that except to say that many mainstream Christians are wary of prosperity gospel adherents/ TV preachers/ and white Christian nationalists who misuse religion to spread hatred and division.

I am a firm believer in division of church and state but can see there are areas where religion and science can collaborate to help people in need.

Right, let’s not talk about regular Americans contributing to society via their faith. Let’s not point out the hypocrisy of pp claiming religious leaders are wealthier than elected officials (google shows that’s patently false) and never speak of the political class using religion as a positive attribute in their personal lives, let’s only talk about how religion is bad.

And a multi-page thread attacking republicans for being white supremacy advocates and supporting theocratic government.

And a multi-thread claiming Jesus is a woke liberal, and would agree with democrats and their policies. And that the legislation touted by democrats is effectively what Jesus would want. (Actual quotes from posters in both threads.)

" border="0" class="embeddedImage" />


And Pew shows the people who know about the theory of White Christian Supremacy/Theology are most likely atheists. Somehow the Christians aren’t aware of their evil intentions- yet atheists know about it, definitely.

OP - I did not get involved in that and am sad the thread has been hijacked. I am leaving the thread now.

My apologies if anyone felt attacked. The thread was intended to highlight the work of a brilliant theological physicist who argues for constructive dialogue between science and religion

The thread was hijacked by a pp who claimed religious leaders are wealthier than politicians.

That claim is untrue and easily googled to show the claim in untrue.

If I respond to the claim, the thread is being “hijacked.”

Posters should have alerted the mod to the false claim and had it removed.

Many threads are hijacked here, are you new?

The moderator either allows it, or no one alerts him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^^^

Apart from fighting extreme poverty, another area where religion and science can collab is better understanding Just War Theory and Practice in modern contexts. Just War theory was originated by St Augustine in fourth century and refined by St Aquinas in Middle Ages and has been employed by many countries over hundreds of years to shape their war responses. It emphasizes that wars of aggression should be presumed to be immoral unless in cases of self defense and that civilian loss and non military targets should be avoided.

Now modern warfare can operate so differently with drones/ nuclear arms/ chemical warfare and cyber attacks. Science and religion could dialogue to propose moral limits for many forms of modern war fare.

Much of the non Western world is very religious and many people tend to trust religious leaders more than scientific leaders/ politicians. Again, religion and science could engage in dialogue to figure out the best ways to serve many people facing unprecedented challenges related to climate change.

Is this true?
Jimmy Swaggert
Jim Bakker
Joel Osteen
Ted Hagard
and too many Catholic priests to name?

I think your premise is a bit off here

See? pp hijacked this thread, did you not see it? You didn’t alert or leave the thread at this point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^^^

Apart from fighting extreme poverty, another area where religion and science can collab is better understanding Just War Theory and Practice in modern contexts. Just War theory was originated by St Augustine in fourth century and refined by St Aquinas in Middle Ages and has been employed by many countries over hundreds of years to shape their war responses. It emphasizes that wars of aggression should be presumed to be immoral unless in cases of self defense and that civilian loss and non military targets should be avoided.

Now modern warfare can operate so differently with drones/ nuclear arms/ chemical warfare and cyber attacks. Science and religion could dialogue to propose moral limits for many forms of modern war fare.

Much of the non Western world is very religious and many people tend to trust religious leaders more than scientific leaders/ politicians. Again, religion and science could engage in dialogue to figure out the best ways to serve many people facing unprecedented challenges related to climate change.

Is this true?
Jimmy Swaggert
Jim Bakker
Joel Osteen
Ted Hagard
and too many Catholic priests to name?

I think your premise is a bit off here

See? pp hijacked this thread, did you not see it? You didn’t alert or leave the thread at this point.

you left out the post this was responding to that said religious leaders are more respected than politicians. I don't think that's necessarily true, esp. considering the scandals in the Catholic church

[Anonymous]

Just report off topic posts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Community service reminder for the forum atheists and for any theists who think they have to choose between religion and science - science and religion do not need to be seen and approached as being in conflict …

For better understanding how science and religion are related to reality, I recommend reading the brilliant physicist and theologian Ian Barbour. His work on reconciling science and religion, describes a four-category typology of the ways we may think science and religion relate to one another: conflict, independence, dialogue, and integration.

He advocated for the dialogue model.

Ian Barbour’s 4 models of the interaction between religion and science:
* Conflict: Science and religion are in conflict. This view assumes that either science or religion is true while the other is necessarily false, and thus the perspectives of each will be in conflict.
* Independence: Both science and religion can be true, but in different domains. This view assumes that science and religion focus on different things, so as long as each keeps to its own domain, it can yield truth in that domain (Stephen J Gould’s idea of non-overlapping magesteria would be an example of this view).
* Dialogue: Science and religion can be conversation partners, as they both contain truth about many things. This view doesn’t assume that science and religion are the same, but that there is enough overlap in what they focus on to mutually inform one another about truths.
* Integration: The truths of science and religion can be integrated into a larger whole. This view assumes that the best way to understand the world is through an integration of science and religion, because they are complementary modes of knowing the truth about reality.

https://ohiostate.pressbooks.pub/enr3470/chapter/4-3/

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/13/us/ian-barbour-academic-who-resisted-conflicts-of-faith-and-science-dies-at-90.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

So the social aspects of religion can support science.

But the core concepts (science vs supernatural forces) are still compartmentalized.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^^^

Apart from fighting extreme poverty, another area where religion and science can collab is better understanding Just War Theory and Practice in modern contexts. Just War theory was originated by St Augustine in fourth century and refined by St Aquinas in Middle Ages and has been employed by many countries over hundreds of years to shape their war responses. It emphasizes that wars of aggression should be presumed to be immoral unless in cases of self defense and that civilian loss and non military targets should be avoided.

Now modern warfare can operate so differently with drones/ nuclear arms/ chemical warfare and cyber attacks. Science and religion could dialogue to propose moral limits for many forms of modern war fare.

Much of the non Western world is very religious and many people tend to trust religious leaders more than scientific leaders/ politicians. Again, religion and science could engage in dialogue to figure out the best ways to serve many people facing unprecedented challenges related to climate change.

Is this true?
Jimmy Swaggert
Jim Bakker
Joel Osteen
Ted Hagard
and too many Catholic priests to name?

I think your premise is a bit off here

See? pp hijacked this thread, did you not see it? You didn’t alert or leave the thread at this point.

you left out the post this was responding to that said religious leaders are more respected than politicians. I don't think that's necessarily true, esp. considering the scandals in the Catholic church

Yes- there are plenty of off topic posts in this thread and most threads in this forum.

Someone dramatically said they are sad and leaving this thread because I dared respond factually to the unreported/unremoved off topic posts.

So the original off topic posts were ok- the posts that were factually incorrect. When the record is corrected, it makes people sad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^ OP
I am Not interested in arguing about US politics in the religion forum and did not get involved in that except to say that many mainstream Christians are wary of prosperity gospel adherents/ TV preachers/ and white Christian nationalists who misuse religion to spread hatred and division.

I am a firm believer in division of church and state but can see there are areas where religion and science can collaborate to help people in need.

Right, let’s not talk about regular Americans contributing to society via their faith. Let’s not point out the hypocrisy of pp claiming religious leaders are wealthier than elected officials (google shows that’s patently false) and never speak of the political class using religion as a positive attribute in their personal lives, let’s only talk about how religion is bad.

And a multi-page thread attacking republicans for being white supremacy advocates and supporting theocratic government.

And a multi-thread claiming Jesus is a woke liberal, and would agree with democrats and their policies. And that the legislation touted by democrats is effectively what Jesus would want. (Actual quotes from posters in both threads.)

" border="0" class="embeddedImage" />


And Pew shows the people who know about the theory of White Christian Supremacy/Theology are most likely atheists. Somehow the Christians aren’t aware of their evil intentions- yet atheists know about it, definitely.

OP - I did not get involved in that and am sad the thread has been hijacked. I am leaving the thread now.

My apologies if anyone felt attacked. The thread was intended to highlight the work of a brilliant theological physicist who argues for constructive dialogue between science and religion

BS - this thread was intended to convince people that religion is over all a good thing and that it meshes nicely with science. Religion CAN be a good thing, but does NOT mesh well with science.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^ OP
I am Not interested in arguing about US politics in the religion forum and did not get involved in that except to say that many mainstream Christians are wary of prosperity gospel adherents/ TV preachers/ and white Christian nationalists who misuse religion to spread hatred and division.

I am a firm believer in division of church and state but can see there are areas where religion and science can collaborate to help people in need.

Right, let’s not talk about regular Americans contributing to society via their faith. Let’s not point out the hypocrisy of pp claiming religious leaders are wealthier than elected officials (google shows that’s patently false) and never speak of the political class using religion as a positive attribute in their personal lives, let’s only talk about how religion is bad.

And a multi-page thread attacking republicans for being white supremacy advocates and supporting theocratic government.

And a multi-thread claiming Jesus is a woke liberal, and would agree with democrats and their policies. And that the legislation touted by democrats is effectively what Jesus would want. (Actual quotes from posters in both threads.)

" border="0" class="embeddedImage" />


And Pew shows the people who know about the theory of White Christian Supremacy/Theology are most likely atheists. Somehow the Christians aren’t aware of their evil intentions- yet atheists know about it, definitely.

OP - I did not get involved in that and am sad the thread has been hijacked. I am leaving the thread now.

My apologies if anyone felt attacked. The thread was intended to highlight the work of a brilliant theological physicist who argues for constructive dialogue between science and religion

BS - this thread was intended to convince people that religion is over all a good thing and that it meshes nicely with science. Religion CAN be a good thing, but does NOT mesh well with science.

pp, are you aware now that any thread that speaks positively of religion will be threadjacked?

Sorry you are sad, it’s really unfair but that’s how it is on dcum religion forum.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^ OP
I am Not interested in arguing about US politics in the religion forum and did not get involved in that except to say that many mainstream Christians are wary of prosperity gospel adherents/ TV preachers/ and white Christian nationalists who misuse religion to spread hatred and division.

I am a firm believer in division of church and state but can see there are areas where religion and science can collaborate to help people in need.

Right, let’s not talk about regular Americans contributing to society via their faith. Let’s not point out the hypocrisy of pp claiming religious leaders are wealthier than elected officials (google shows that’s patently false) and never speak of the political class using religion as a positive attribute in their personal lives, let’s only talk about how religion is bad.

And a multi-page thread attacking republicans for being white supremacy advocates and supporting theocratic government.

And a multi-thread claiming Jesus is a woke liberal, and would agree with democrats and their policies. And that the legislation touted by democrats is effectively what Jesus would want. (Actual quotes from posters in both threads.)

" border="0" class="embeddedImage" />


And Pew shows the people who know about the theory of White Christian Supremacy/Theology are most likely atheists. Somehow the Christians aren’t aware of their evil intentions- yet atheists know about it, definitely.

OP - I did not get involved in that and am sad the thread has been hijacked. I am leaving the thread now.

My apologies if anyone felt attacked. The thread was intended to highlight the work of a brilliant theological physicist who argues for constructive dialogue between science and religion

BS - this thread was intended to convince people that religion is over all a good thing and that it meshes nicely with science. Religion CAN be a good thing, but does NOT mesh well with science.

pp, are you aware now that any thread that speaks positively of religion will be threadjacked?

Sorry you are sad, it’s really unfair but that’s how it is on dcum religion forum.

It's not threadjacking to call out a poster, irrespective of the subject matter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^ OP
I am Not interested in arguing about US politics in the religion forum and did not get involved in that except to say that many mainstream Christians are wary of prosperity gospel adherents/ TV preachers/ and white Christian nationalists who misuse religion to spread hatred and division.

I am a firm believer in division of church and state but can see there are areas where religion and science can collaborate to help people in need.

Right, let’s not talk about regular Americans contributing to society via their faith. Let’s not point out the hypocrisy of pp claiming religious leaders are wealthier than elected officials (google shows that’s patently false) and never speak of the political class using religion as a positive attribute in their personal lives, let’s only talk about how religion is bad.

And a multi-page thread attacking republicans for being white supremacy advocates and supporting theocratic government.

And a multi-thread claiming Jesus is a woke liberal, and would agree with democrats and their policies. And that the legislation touted by democrats is effectively what Jesus would want. (Actual quotes from posters in both threads.)

" border="0" class="embeddedImage" />


And Pew shows the people who know about the theory of White Christian Supremacy/Theology are most likely atheists. Somehow the Christians aren’t aware of their evil intentions- yet atheists know about it, definitely.

OP - I did not get involved in that and am sad the thread has been hijacked. I am leaving the thread now.

My apologies if anyone felt attacked. The thread was intended to highlight the work of a brilliant theological physicist who argues for constructive dialogue between science and religion

“Religion” as a social group, not an explanation for how the world exists.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^ OP
I am Not interested in arguing about US politics in the religion forum and did not get involved in that except to say that many mainstream Christians are wary of prosperity gospel adherents/ TV preachers/ and white Christian nationalists who misuse religion to spread hatred and division.

I am a firm believer in division of church and state but can see there are areas where religion and science can collaborate to help people in need.

Right, let’s not talk about regular Americans contributing to society via their faith. Let’s not point out the hypocrisy of pp claiming religious leaders are wealthier than elected officials (google shows that’s patently false) and never speak of the political class using religion as a positive attribute in their personal lives, let’s only talk about how religion is bad.

And a multi-page thread attacking republicans for being white supremacy advocates and supporting theocratic government.

And a multi-thread claiming Jesus is a woke liberal, and would agree with democrats and their policies. And that the legislation touted by democrats is effectively what Jesus would want. (Actual quotes from posters in both threads.)

" border="0" class="embeddedImage" />


And Pew shows the people who know about the theory of White Christian Supremacy/Theology are most likely atheists. Somehow the Christians aren’t aware of their evil intentions- yet atheists know about it, definitely.

OP - I did not get involved in that and am sad the thread has been hijacked. I am leaving the thread now.

My apologies if anyone felt attacked. The thread was intended to highlight the work of a brilliant theological physicist who argues for constructive dialogue between science and religion

“Religion” as a social group, not an explanation for how the world exists.

You mean like LGBTQ?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^ OP
I am Not interested in arguing about US politics in the religion forum and did not get involved in that except to say that many mainstream Christians are wary of prosperity gospel adherents/ TV preachers/ and white Christian nationalists who misuse religion to spread hatred and division.

I am a firm believer in division of church and state but can see there are areas where religion and science can collaborate to help people in need.

Right, let’s not talk about regular Americans contributing to society via their faith. Let’s not point out the hypocrisy of pp claiming religious leaders are wealthier than elected officials (google shows that’s patently false) and never speak of the political class using religion as a positive attribute in their personal lives, let’s only talk about how religion is bad.

And a multi-page thread attacking republicans for being white supremacy advocates and supporting theocratic government.

And a multi-thread claiming Jesus is a woke liberal, and would agree with democrats and their policies. And that the legislation touted by democrats is effectively what Jesus would want. (Actual quotes from posters in both threads.)

" border="0" class="embeddedImage" />


And Pew shows the people who know about the theory of White Christian Supremacy/Theology are most likely atheists. Somehow the Christians aren’t aware of their evil intentions- yet atheists know about it, definitely.

OP - I did not get involved in that and am sad the thread has been hijacked. I am leaving the thread now.

My apologies if anyone felt attacked. The thread was intended to highlight the work of a brilliant theological physicist who argues for constructive dialogue between science and religion

“Religion” as a social group, not an explanation for how the world exists.

You mean like LGBTQ?

No. There is no special gay afterlife.