Bad for students, who apply for CS or engineering, to take AP Calc AB and then BC?

[Anonymous]

My DC’s high school doesn’t even let you take BC until you have taken AB. This is a local DC private school. I think it is common at private schools AB to be a requirement for BC. Public schools around DC seem to let the kids pick either AB or BC, but they don’t tend to take both.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Many people on DCUM have kids at high schools that don't require AB as a prerequisite to BC. Those schools often offer multi-variable calculus and differential equations. And possibly courses like linear algebra and discrete math. Their suggestions may not apply if your school offers more limited math options.

What does availability of other math classes have to do with testing AB with BC in sequence? You’d do that if you run out of classes, but then it makes more sense to do AP Statistics or dual enrollment instead.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many people on DCUM have kids at high schools that don't require AB as a prerequisite to BC. Those schools often offer multi-variable calculus and differential equations. And possibly courses like linear algebra and discrete math. Their suggestions may not apply if your school offers more limited math options.

What does availability of other math classes have to do with testing AB with BC in sequence? You’d do that if you run out of classes, but then it makes more sense to do AP Statistics or dual enrollment instead.

The suggestion people often make is to take BC directly and then take multi at the hs which doesn't apply if BC is limited to those who have taken AB and multi isn't offered at the HS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's totally fine to do AB+BC, that's the most common path for advanced math students at DS's HS and I know several admitted UVA and VT for engineering last year. DS also did that and is at VT in a math-heavy major. IMO, it's better to do that than jump to BC. No reason to rush through calculus vs. learning it at a slower and more thorough pace.

And you want your engineers and physicists to be fluent in math. My kid (a billion APs, high GPA, 1550+ SAT) is going into a stem field and I insisted she take AB and then BC. I wasn’t convinced that pre-calc was firm because of COVID even though she did fine in the class. I thought that the fundamentals need to be strong so she can really use math as a tool well into the future. Oh and I taught math heavy grad classes as a prof. It’s better that kids really understand this stuff rather than trying to show off to some college counselor.

This was my post last year. My kid made it into 2 Ivys and also into a v. highly selective school with a v strong STEM program (where she is now). AB and then BC didn't seem to stop her at all. She is well grounded in math. This is a kid with her eyes on grad school in STEM and who is on track to making it. So at least in her case, the AO's didn't care.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In another thread (and here) people said strong math students don't do that sequence. They cut out Calc AB. And colleges would look at that sequence as weak and not rigorous.

Those people were incorrect. There is nothing wrong with taking AB and then BC. Indeed, it is the only route at many, many high schools that do not organize their curriculum in a way that allows a student to go directly to BC from precalc.

No those people were not incorrect. The overlap between AB and BC is 80%, essentially it’s the same class with two more chapters in the end for BC out of 10. It’s bizarre to say they organize their curriculum for AB, but not BC.

One can take AB followed by BC but then you waste a full year, which could be used for AP Statistics or other math courses.

If you got A in honors precalculus you should be fine in BC. The problem is that kids that should not be in Calculus are pushed there nevertheless and the school needs to teach again precalculus foundations and go at a slower place.

Some high schools teach AB as Calc I and BC as Calc II.

Other high schools teach AB as Calc I and BC as accelerated Calc I-II.

You are apparently familiar with the second type of high school but not the first.

Students at the first type of high school should not skip Calc I. And no college admissions office will hold it against them, that they took the sequence in order.

Actually you don’t know what you’re talking about. Calculus I and II, and III (multivariable) are typically taught in colleges with first semester as derivatives and second for integrals.

No school teaches Calculus AB as Calculus I, they teach the curriculum set by College Board, otherwise it wouldn’t be called AP Calculus AB.

https://apstudents.collegeboard.org/courses/ap-calculus-ab
https://apstudents.collegeboard.org/courses/ap-calculus-bc

Its easy to see that the first 8 chapters in BC are the same as the entirety of the AB course.

People opine about the classes but have no idea about what is taught, and instead their only qualification is the university their kid went to.

NP. High schools in our area organize their math courses such that AB is a prerequisite to BC, hence the PP's reference to Calc I and II. Many high schools do not allow students to go straight to BC - this varies widely. College Board's curriculum does not prevent high schools from doing this.

Schools can set their own prerequisites, but can’t change what is actually being taught in the class and still call it AP. Really, stop referencing it as Calculus I and II, either you’re being confused, or you’re confusing others, as the PP who erroneously and hilariously thought there’s a direct correspondence between Calculus I and AB. However students reference it in their jargon is not an accurate description of the class, stick to how it’s called in the course catalogue.

Our school also has AB as a prerequisite for BC, because many mid tier students want to end up with calculus in high school but couldn’t really hack it in BC. If you want to go straight to BC, you just need to ask the math department head and they usually accommodate it without much fuss. Hence the claim that strong students usually go straight to BC.

"Strong students usually" is overbroad. There is too much variability.

My student took AB in 9th, BC in 10th, AP Stats in 11th, and dual enrollment Calc 3 at a CC in 12th. Headed to a top 10 university.

Sibling with straight As (different high school) took precalc in 11th, skipped the AB prereq and took BC in 12th, and crashed and burned. Lots of reasons that weren't the teacher's fault, though on top of those, the calc teacher was also terrible. It was a mistake.

Now next sibling is at first kid's high school, where calc teacher is also teaching AP precalc. Teacher suggested kid can skip AB and go right to BC. Kid is planning to take AB as far as I know.

[Anonymous]

You can just look up the course description from a college board.

https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/media/pdf/ap-calculus-ab-and-bc-course-and-exam-description.pdf

In the prerequisites section, it’s clear they aren’t supposed to be taken in sequence. The only additional prerequisite is that students are familiar with basic series and sequences, usually covered in precalculus if not algebra 2.

It’s fine if students want to take AB+BC, just as it is fine to repeat Algebra if the foundation is not there. Obviously very strong students don’t typically repeat material because they can handle it in one pass well enough. Making AB a prerequisite goes against the College Board course description and recommendation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You can just look up the course description from a college board.

https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/media/pdf/ap-calculus-ab-and-bc-course-and-exam-description.pdf

In the prerequisites section, it’s clear they aren’t supposed to be taken in sequence. The only additional prerequisite is that students are familiar with basic series and sequences, usually covered in precalculus if not algebra 2.

It’s fine if students want to take AB+BC, just as it is fine to repeat Algebra if the foundation is not there. Obviously very strong students don’t typically repeat material because they can handle it in one pass well enough. Making AB a prerequisite goes against the College Board course description and recommendation.

And yet many high schools make AB a prerequisite to BC, and have done so for many years, and the College Board goes on certifying their courses as official AP courses.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You can just look up the course description from a college board.

https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/media/pdf/ap-calculus-ab-and-bc-course-and-exam-description.pdf

In the prerequisites section, it’s clear they aren’t supposed to be taken in sequence. The only additional prerequisite is that students are familiar with basic series and sequences, usually covered in precalculus if not algebra 2.

It’s fine if students want to take AB+BC, just as it is fine to repeat Algebra if the foundation is not there. Obviously very strong students don’t typically repeat material because they can handle it in one pass well enough. Making AB a prerequisite goes against the College Board course description and recommendation.

College Board doesn't seem to care that many, many high schools make AB a prereq for BC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You can just look up the course description from a college board.

https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/media/pdf/ap-calculus-ab-and-bc-course-and-exam-description.pdf

In the prerequisites section, it’s clear they aren’t supposed to be taken in sequence. The only additional prerequisite is that students are familiar with basic series and sequences, usually covered in precalculus if not algebra 2.

It’s fine if students want to take AB+BC, just as it is fine to repeat Algebra if the foundation is not there. Obviously very strong students don’t typically repeat material because they can handle it in one pass well enough. Making AB a prerequisite goes against the College Board course description and recommendation.

And yet many high schools make AB a prerequisite to BC, and have done so for many years, and the College Board goes on certifying their courses as official AP courses.

College board audits courses, not certifies them. Why wouldn’t they, it’s about the course contents, covered material and standards. If the schools wants to have a third of the class take AP calculus then it makes sense to herd them through the AB and BC in sequence, but honestly I think the top 5-10% of the class could just go straight to BC. It’s a disservice to them to do make AB mandatory.

So far the only argument for taking AB+BC is that somebody’s kid did this and ended up a a good school. Good for them, I don’t think it’s a red flag for admissions, it’s just that repeating material to get a better “foundation” is not optimal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You can just look up the course description from a college board.

https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/media/pdf/ap-calculus-ab-and-bc-course-and-exam-description.pdf

In the prerequisites section, it’s clear they aren’t supposed to be taken in sequence. The only additional prerequisite is that students are familiar with basic series and sequences, usually covered in precalculus if not algebra 2.

It’s fine if students want to take AB+BC, just as it is fine to repeat Algebra if the foundation is not there. Obviously very strong students don’t typically repeat material because they can handle it in one pass well enough. Making AB a prerequisite goes against the College Board course description and recommendation.

And yet many high schools make AB a prerequisite to BC, and have done so for many years, and the College Board goes on certifying their courses as official AP courses.

College board audits courses, not certifies them. Why wouldn’t they, it’s about the course contents, covered material and standards. If the schools wants to have a third of the class take AP calculus then it makes sense to herd them through the AB and BC in sequence, but honestly I think the top 5-10% of the class could just go straight to BC. It’s a disservice to them to do make AB mandatory.

So far the only argument for taking AB+BC is that somebody’s kid did this and ended up a a good school. Good for them, I don’t think it’s a red flag for admissions, it’s just that repeating material to get a better “foundation” is not optimal.

For the numerous high schools that separate the AP calculus into two separate years, AB and BC, and REQUIRE AB then BC, due to the BC course being designed to start mid-curriculum for what College board lists as BC, there is NOchoice for the students. Need it or not, it is taught over two yrs by design by those (usually private) HS. Who cares? No one. Those students are following what they have to do in their HS curriculum. AOs understand that there is not unnecessary “repetition “, rather the pace is just slowed and split into two yrs, on purpose.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In another thread (and here) people said strong math students don't do that sequence. They cut out Calc AB. And colleges would look at that sequence as weak and not rigorous.

Those people were incorrect. There is nothing wrong with taking AB and then BC. Indeed, it is the only route at many, many high schools that do not organize their curriculum in a way that allows a student to go directly to BC from precalc.

No those people were not incorrect. The overlap between AB and BC is 80%, essentially it’s the same class with two more chapters in the end for BC out of 10. It’s bizarre to say they organize their curriculum for AB, but not BC.

One can take AB followed by BC but then you waste a full year, which could be used for AP Statistics or other math courses.

If you got A in honors precalculus you should be fine in BC. The problem is that kids that should not be in Calculus are pushed there nevertheless and the school needs to teach again precalculus foundations and go at a slower place.

Some high schools teach AB as Calc I and BC as Calc II.

Other high schools teach AB as Calc I and BC as accelerated Calc I-II.

You are apparently familiar with the second type of high school but not the first.

Students at the first type of high school should not skip Calc I. And no college admissions office will hold it against them, that they took the sequence in order.

Actually you don’t know what you’re talking about. Calculus I and II, and III (multivariable) are typically taught in colleges with first semester as derivatives and second for integrals.

No school teaches Calculus AB as Calculus I, they teach the curriculum set by College Board, otherwise it wouldn’t be called AP Calculus AB.

https://apstudents.collegeboard.org/courses/ap-calculus-ab
https://apstudents.collegeboard.org/courses/ap-calculus-bc

Its easy to see that the first 8 chapters in BC are the same as the entirety of the AB course.

People opine about the classes but have no idea about what is taught, and instead their only qualification is the university their kid went to.

NP. High schools in our area organize their math courses such that AB is a prerequisite to BC, hence the PP's reference to Calc I and II. Many high schools do not allow students to go straight to BC - this varies widely. College Board's curriculum does not prevent high schools from doing this.

Schools can set their own prerequisites, but can’t change what is actually being taught in the class and still call it AP. Really, stop referencing it as Calculus I and II, either you’re being confused, or you’re confusing others, as the PP who erroneously and hilariously thought there’s a direct correspondence between Calculus I and AB. However students reference it in their jargon is not an accurate description of the class, stick to how it’s called in the course catalogue.

Our school also has AB as a prerequisite for BC, because many mid tier students want to end up with calculus in high school but couldn’t really hack it in BC. If you want to go straight to BC, you just need to ask the math department head and they usually accommodate it without much fuss. Hence the claim that strong students usually go straight to BC.

"Strong students usually" is overbroad. There is too much variability.

My student took AB in 9th, BC in 10th, AP Stats in 11th, and dual enrollment Calc 3 at a CC in 12th. Headed to a top 10 university.

Sibling with straight As (different high school) took precalc in 11th, skipped the AB prereq and took BC in 12th, and crashed and burned. Lots of reasons that weren't the teacher's fault, though on top of those, the calc teacher was also terrible. It was a mistake.

Now next sibling is at first kid's high school, where calc teacher is also teaching AP precalc. Teacher suggested kid can skip AB and go right to BC. Kid is planning to take AB as far as I know.

Which district are you in? Did the first kid take algebra in 5th or what?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You can just look up the course description from a college board.

https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/media/pdf/ap-calculus-ab-and-bc-course-and-exam-description.pdf

In the prerequisites section, it’s clear they aren’t supposed to be taken in sequence. The only additional prerequisite is that students are familiar with basic series and sequences, usually covered in precalculus if not algebra 2.

It’s fine if students want to take AB+BC, just as it is fine to repeat Algebra if the foundation is not there. Obviously very strong students don’t typically repeat material because they can handle it in one pass well enough. Making AB a prerequisite goes against the College Board course description and recommendation.

Interesting, but ultimately irrelevant what College Board says — since the OP said their school does NOT allow skipping Calc AB en route to Calc BC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You can just look up the course description from a college board.

https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/media/pdf/ap-calculus-ab-and-bc-course-and-exam-description.pdf

In the prerequisites section, it’s clear they aren’t supposed to be taken in sequence. The only additional prerequisite is that students are familiar with basic series and sequences, usually covered in precalculus if not algebra 2.

It’s fine if students want to take AB+BC, just as it is fine to repeat Algebra if the foundation is not there. Obviously very strong students don’t typically repeat material because they can handle it in one pass well enough. Making AB a prerequisite goes against the College Board course description and recommendation.

College Board doesn't seem to care that many, many high schools make AB a prereq for BC.

This.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You can just look up the course description from a college board.

https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/media/pdf/ap-calculus-ab-and-bc-course-and-exam-description.pdf

In the prerequisites section, it’s clear they aren’t supposed to be taken in sequence. The only additional prerequisite is that students are familiar with basic series and sequences, usually covered in precalculus if not algebra 2.

It’s fine if students want to take AB+BC, just as it is fine to repeat Algebra if the foundation is not there. Obviously very strong students don’t typically repeat material because they can handle it in one pass well enough. Making AB a prerequisite goes against the College Board course description and recommendation.

And yet many high schools make AB a prerequisite to BC, and have done so for many years, and the College Board goes on certifying their courses as official AP courses.

College board audits courses, not certifies them. Why wouldn’t they, it’s about the course contents, covered material and standards. If the schools wants to have a third of the class take AP calculus then it makes sense to herd them through the AB and BC in sequence, but honestly I think the top 5-10% of the class could just go straight to BC. It’s a disservice to them to do make AB mandatory.

So far the only argument for taking AB+BC is that somebody’s kid did this and ended up a a good school. Good for them, I don’t think it’s a red flag for admissions, it’s just that repeating material to get a better “foundation” is not optimal.

For the numerous high schools that separate the AP calculus into two separate years, AB and BC, and REQUIRE AB then BC, due to the BC course being designed to start mid-curriculum for what College board lists as BC, there is NOchoice for the students. Need it or not, it is taught over two yrs by design by those (usually private) HS. Who cares? No one. Those students are following what they have to do in their HS curriculum. AOs understand that there is not unnecessary “repetition “, rather the pace is just slowed and split into two yrs, on purpose.

The PP that gets hung up on course title and repetition is missing the forest for the trees. As someone pointed out this is how math is taught throughout, on a spiral, reinforcement past concepts introduce new.

With the right cohort of kids, there is enough depth in algebra 1 to make a challenging class.Two years of calculus is not remedial if the school plans it that way. OTOH, there are ways to teach MV or linear, that are not at all engaging. Collection of techniques without motivation, no student participation or discussion. Plenty of CC classes are exactly that. Crazy, but being in a room with engaged students is more important than course title.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You can just look up the course description from a college board.

https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/media/pdf/ap-calculus-ab-and-bc-course-and-exam-description.pdf

In the prerequisites section, it’s clear they aren’t supposed to be taken in sequence. The only additional prerequisite is that students are familiar with basic series and sequences, usually covered in precalculus if not algebra 2.

It’s fine if students want to take AB+BC, just as it is fine to repeat Algebra if the foundation is not there. Obviously very strong students don’t typically repeat material because they can handle it in one pass well enough. Making AB a prerequisite goes against the College Board course description and recommendation.

And yet many high schools make AB a prerequisite to BC, and have done so for many years, and the College Board goes on certifying their courses as official AP courses.

College board audits courses, not certifies them. Why wouldn’t they, it’s about the course contents, covered material and standards. If the schools wants to have a third of the class take AP calculus then it makes sense to herd them through the AB and BC in sequence, but honestly I think the top 5-10% of the class could just go straight to BC. It’s a disservice to them to do make AB mandatory.

So far the only argument for taking AB+BC is that somebody’s kid did this and ended up a a good school. Good for them, I don’t think it’s a red flag for admissions, it’s just that repeating material to get a better “foundation” is not optimal.

For the numerous high schools that separate the AP calculus into two separate years, AB and BC, and REQUIRE AB then BC, due to the BC course being designed to start mid-curriculum for what College board lists as BC, there is NOchoice for the students. Need it or not, it is taught over two yrs by design by those (usually private) HS. Who cares? No one. Those students are following what they have to do in their HS curriculum. AOs understand that there is not unnecessary “repetition “, rather the pace is just slowed and split into two yrs, on purpose.

Maybe some people care how calculus is taught to their kids, I do. You are happy to leave that decision to your high school, great. I also don’t do everything wondering about what an AO might think, it’s enough for me to look through the teaching materials to see it as repetition.

The pace is not slowed down and split into two years on purpose. The BC course doesn’t start mid curriculum as you claim. Just the fact that you are making up these lies clearly shows you have absolutely no clue. Schools can’t just teach whatever they want in an AP class, there’s a list of topics, instruction time down to the weekly progression etc. Check the curriculum and it’s actually repetition. Some kids need it, and that’s fine, but others don’t and they shouldn’t sit through the same class twice. Most schools recognize this which is why in the prerequisite course section they also list “permission/recommendation if teacher”.