Flu?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Have the COVIDians moved onto worrying about flu in schools now?!?

It's like humans haven't survived for 100K+ years.

I wish they'd put the same energy into improving the academic performance of our public schools, which just suffered a significant amount of damage because of prolonged school closures they supported. The learning loss, especially among the most vulnerable students, is so sad.

Actually, about 30K don't survive the flu each year. Mainly the very young and the very old. So it's good to be concerned every year about the flu.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Have the COVIDians moved onto worrying about flu in schools now?!?

It's like humans haven't survived for 100K+ years.

I wish they'd put the same energy into improving the academic performance of our public schools, which just suffered a significant amount of damage because of prolonged school closures they supported. The learning loss, especially among the most vulnerable students, is so sad.

Actually, about 30K don't survive the flu each year. Mainly the very young and the very old. So it's good to be concerned every year about the flu.

More kdis are estimated to have died from H1N1 than from COVID. What did we do then?

Get the vaccine (if you want to) and otherwise act normally unless you're immunocompromised (immunocompromised didn't start existing in March 2020, as some people like to think).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Symptomatic with the flu?!? No, don't come to school.

Symptomatic as in coughing or sneezing but no symptoms so severe as to keep your child home. You seem to be missing the point, nobody cares if you mask and nobody is telling you to. Some people might choose to, and that’s fine. No skin off my back if other people mask themselves or their children.

Masks need to go away here in Northern Virginia. They're non-existent in Europe and very rare in much of the United States.

I understand they're a political statement here, but just wear a button or something else, and stop the dystopian masking. If someone loves masking, I'd recommend Afghanistan.

People have snotty noses all winter. If you have a fever, stay home for 24 hours. If not, go to school.

Well I'm immune compromised and somehow I don't think wearing a button will protect me quite as well as my mask. But, I'm sure you don't care because me wearing my mask clearly bothers you that much. You're probably the jerk who sends your kids to school sick and amped up on cough medicine to get everyone else sick.

Please define immune compromised. Did you just have an organ transplant? Are you getting chemo? Or do you just have asthma?

And stop with the blaming people for spread of diseases. It's absolutely disgusting.

No I don't "just" have asthma (but weird that you'd minimize a condition that can be very serious for some). I'm not going to parade my medical history around here for your scrutiny because it's pretty clear with an attitude like that, you'd find some way to pick it apart.

You really should look inward when you're this mean to a person with a medical condition doing what they need to do to protect their health, especially when it has zero impact on you. Do you hate people in wheelchairs too?

+1 Its so weird how some people act like human behavior can't and shouldn't change. Ever. Like we should all live like we did thousands of years ago and nothing we have learned about hygiene and the spread of disease should be implemented. Also, its pretty sick to conflate masking to prevent the spread of disease with the Taliban's forced masking of women in Afghanistan.

No it's not. The only place that previously forced mask people was Afghanistan (but only women).

And the only science that changed around forced masking in March 2020 was political science, not medical science.

Anyone fearmongering flu in schools at this stage is the sick one. Probably the same exact people who fearmongered monkeypox this summer.

You're completely trivializing what is happening in Afghanistan. Just stop.

Unscientifically force masking women is bad when it's based upon religion? But unscientifically force masking children (and only children) is not bad when it's based on 0 solid science and no random control trials (i.e., a quasi-religion)?

They're both flat out wrong and disgusting.

And now the same people are fearmonging based on the flu (and ignore the prior 14 RCTs on masks and the flu). It's like if forced masking was dropped in Afghanistan, and the mullahs were trying to blame more out of wedlock births on the lack of forced masking of women.

The replies in this string (a big distraction from the original topic) are about people choosing to mask themselves and someone asking that a person who is symptomatic with the flu stay home. Presumably that person is ok with someone coming back to school once they are no longer symptomatic. Requiring women to mask because they are women is a human rights abuse. It singles out a specific group of people based on an immutable characteristic, i.e. a physical attribute which is perceived as being unchangeable, entrenched and innate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Symptomatic with the flu?!? No, don't come to school.

Symptomatic as in coughing or sneezing but no symptoms so severe as to keep your child home. You seem to be missing the point, nobody cares if you mask and nobody is telling you to. Some people might choose to, and that’s fine. No skin off my back if other people mask themselves or their children.

Masks need to go away here in Northern Virginia. They're non-existent in Europe and very rare in much of the United States.

I understand they're a political statement here, but just wear a button or something else, and stop the dystopian masking. If someone loves masking, I'd recommend Afghanistan.

People have snotty noses all winter. If you have a fever, stay home for 24 hours. If not, go to school.

Well I'm immune compromised and somehow I don't think wearing a button will protect me quite as well as my mask. But, I'm sure you don't care because me wearing my mask clearly bothers you that much. You're probably the jerk who sends your kids to school sick and amped up on cough medicine to get everyone else sick.

Please define immune compromised. Did you just have an organ transplant? Are you getting chemo? Or do you just have asthma?

And stop with the blaming people for spread of diseases. It's absolutely disgusting.

No I don't "just" have asthma (but weird that you'd minimize a condition that can be very serious for some). I'm not going to parade my medical history around here for your scrutiny because it's pretty clear with an attitude like that, you'd find some way to pick it apart.

You really should look inward when you're this mean to a person with a medical condition doing what they need to do to protect their health, especially when it has zero impact on you. Do you hate people in wheelchairs too?

+1 Its so weird how some people act like human behavior can't and shouldn't change. Ever. Like we should all live like we did thousands of years ago and nothing we have learned about hygiene and the spread of disease should be implemented. Also, its pretty sick to conflate masking to prevent the spread of disease with the Taliban's forced masking of women in Afghanistan.

No it's not. The only place that previously forced mask people was Afghanistan (but only women).

And the only science that changed around forced masking in March 2020 was political science, not medical science.

Anyone fearmongering flu in schools at this stage is the sick one. Probably the same exact people who fearmongered monkeypox this summer.

You're completely trivializing what is happening in Afghanistan. Just stop.

Unscientifically force masking women is bad when it's based upon religion? But unscientifically force masking children (and only children) is not bad when it's based on 0 solid science and no random control trials (i.e., a quasi-religion)?

They're both flat out wrong and disgusting.

And now the same people are fearmonging based on the flu (and ignore the prior 14 RCTs on masks and the flu). It's like if forced masking was dropped in Afghanistan, and the mullahs were trying to blame more out of wedlock births on the lack of forced masking of women.

The replies in this string (a big distraction from the original topic) are about people choosing to mask themselves and someone asking that a person who is symptomatic with the flu stay home. Presumably that person is ok with someone coming back to school once they are no longer symptomatic. Requiring women to mask because they are women is a human rights abuse. It singles out a specific group of people based on an immutable characteristic, i.e. a physical attribute which is perceived as being unchangeable, entrenched and innate.

Someone in this thread asked that your kids "consider" (meaning parents force them to) wearing a mask if they have any flu like symptoms, which means mine would be in a mask all spring from allergies.

Sorry the truth hurts, but the only other society that is forcibly masking people is Afghanistan.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Have the COVIDians moved onto worrying about flu in schools now?!?

It's like humans haven't survived for 100K+ years.

I wish they'd put the same energy into improving the academic performance of our public schools, which just suffered a significant amount of damage because of prolonged school closures they supported. The learning loss, especially among the most vulnerable students, is so sad.

Actually, about 30K don't survive the flu each year. Mainly the very young and the very old. So it's good to be concerned every year about the flu.

More kdis are estimated to have died from H1N1 than from COVID. What did we do then?

Get the vaccine (if you want to) and otherwise act normally unless you're immunocompromised (immunocompromised didn't start existing in March 2020, as some people like to think).

Maybe a lot more people know more about how to prevent the spread of diseases now? Maybe a lot more people understand that when they go out knowingly spreading their diseases they are adversely effecting other people? Pre-March 2020 colleagues would complain when a co-worker would came to our cube farm coughing and sneezing all over. Selfishness is nothing new. Maybe we all know a bit more now and can be more considerate of others, especially the immunocompromised and others with health conditions that make the flu a bigger risk for them.

What are you doing that is so vital to the human race that you can't mitigate the spread of the flu when you are contagious?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Symptomatic with the flu?!? No, don't come to school.

Symptomatic as in coughing or sneezing but no symptoms so severe as to keep your child home. You seem to be missing the point, nobody cares if you mask and nobody is telling you to. Some people might choose to, and that’s fine. No skin off my back if other people mask themselves or their children.

Masks need to go away here in Northern Virginia. They're non-existent in Europe and very rare in much of the United States.

I understand they're a political statement here, but just wear a button or something else, and stop the dystopian masking. If someone loves masking, I'd recommend Afghanistan.

People have snotty noses all winter. If you have a fever, stay home for 24 hours. If not, go to school.

Well I'm immune compromised and somehow I don't think wearing a button will protect me quite as well as my mask. But, I'm sure you don't care because me wearing my mask clearly bothers you that much. You're probably the jerk who sends your kids to school sick and amped up on cough medicine to get everyone else sick.

Please define immune compromised. Did you just have an organ transplant? Are you getting chemo? Or do you just have asthma?

And stop with the blaming people for spread of diseases. It's absolutely disgusting.

No I don't "just" have asthma (but weird that you'd minimize a condition that can be very serious for some). I'm not going to parade my medical history around here for your scrutiny because it's pretty clear with an attitude like that, you'd find some way to pick it apart.

You really should look inward when you're this mean to a person with a medical condition doing what they need to do to protect their health, especially when it has zero impact on you. Do you hate people in wheelchairs too?

+1 Its so weird how some people act like human behavior can't and shouldn't change. Ever. Like we should all live like we did thousands of years ago and nothing we have learned about hygiene and the spread of disease should be implemented. Also, its pretty sick to conflate masking to prevent the spread of disease with the Taliban's forced masking of women in Afghanistan.

No it's not. The only place that previously forced mask people was Afghanistan (but only women).

And the only science that changed around forced masking in March 2020 was political science, not medical science.

Anyone fearmongering flu in schools at this stage is the sick one. Probably the same exact people who fearmongered monkeypox this summer.

You're completely trivializing what is happening in Afghanistan. Just stop.

Unscientifically force masking women is bad when it's based upon religion? But unscientifically force masking children (and only children) is not bad when it's based on 0 solid science and no random control trials (i.e., a quasi-religion)?

They're both flat out wrong and disgusting.

And now the same people are fearmonging based on the flu (and ignore the prior 14 RCTs on masks and the flu). It's like if forced masking was dropped in Afghanistan, and the mullahs were trying to blame more out of wedlock births on the lack of forced masking of women.

The replies in this string (a big distraction from the original topic) are about people choosing to mask themselves and someone asking that a person who is symptomatic with the flu stay home. Presumably that person is ok with someone coming back to school once they are no longer symptomatic. Requiring women to mask because they are women is a human rights abuse. It singles out a specific group of people based on an immutable characteristic, i.e. a physical attribute which is perceived as being unchangeable, entrenched and innate.

Someone in this thread asked that your kids "consider" (meaning parents force them to) wearing a mask if they have any flu like symptoms, which means mine would be in a mask all spring from allergies.

Sorry the truth hurts, but the only other society that is forcibly masking people is Afghanistan.

You need to check your definitions. Consider means "think carefully about (something), typically before making a decision."

Look around. There is no forced masking in this country, even when people are ill will COVID. Afghanistan is an incredibly heart breaking situation. You are insulting every women who live there by continuing to conflate their experience with what is happening here. Stop.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If people need a mask medically that is one thing. The concern is that people feel they need a mask when they do not, because of all the fearmongering and virtue signaling that has happened over two years. For example, there were CNN reporters giving reports with a mask on outdoors, then taking it off once filmingwas finished.

Look around. Very few people are wearing masks. Why are you so triggered by that? I'm still figuring out how long I'll continue wearing a mask inside but I've had plenty of winters that I have gotten very sick and tired of being sick with one cold after another after another, followed by bronchitis or sometimes pneumonia. Masks don't impede my ability to socialize or get work done but if they keep me from getting sick as often that is good for me. Why does my mask bother you?

I'm bothered by the previous fearmongering, and that it will continue. If McAuliffe had been elected governor, I suspect we would still have masking in schools, and school closures as well. A lot of students have gotten sick the past few days, with many classes being below ten students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If people need a mask medically that is one thing. The concern is that people feel they need a mask when they do not, because of all the fearmongering and virtue signaling that has happened over two years. For example, there were CNN reporters giving reports with a mask on outdoors, then taking it off once filmingwas finished.

Look around. Very few people are wearing masks. Why are you so triggered by that? I'm still figuring out how long I'll continue wearing a mask inside but I've had plenty of winters that I have gotten very sick and tired of being sick with one cold after another after another, followed by bronchitis or sometimes pneumonia. Masks don't impede my ability to socialize or get work done but if they keep me from getting sick as often that is good for me. Why does my mask bother you?

I'm bothered by the previous fearmongering, and that it will continue. If McAuliffe had been elected governor, I suspect we would still have masking in schools, and school closures as well. A lot of students have gotten sick the past few days, with many classes being below ten students.

Yep and we'll have a lot more sickness if people like you won't put on masks when Covid gets bad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If people need a mask medically that is one thing. The concern is that people feel they need a mask when they do not, because of all the fearmongering and virtue signaling that has happened over two years. For example, there were CNN reporters giving reports with a mask on outdoors, then taking it off once filmingwas finished.

Look around. Very few people are wearing masks. Why are you so triggered by that? I'm still figuring out how long I'll continue wearing a mask inside but I've had plenty of winters that I have gotten very sick and tired of being sick with one cold after another after another, followed by bronchitis or sometimes pneumonia. Masks don't impede my ability to socialize or get work done but if they keep me from getting sick as often that is good for me. Why does my mask bother you?

I'm bothered by the previous fearmongering, and that it will continue. If McAuliffe had been elected governor, I suspect we would still have masking in schools, and school closures as well. A lot of students have gotten sick the past few days, with many classes being below ten students.

Yep and we'll have a lot more sickness if people like you won't put on masks when Covid gets bad.

COVID was horrible in January when everyone was forced masked. I guess we weren't force masking hard enough then.

Masks have continually failed. I understand they're a political statement for you like a MAGA hat, but for the AOC wing of the Democratic party.

And it's getting sick that you're blaming schools for COVID when bars, restaurants, senior centers and everywhere else are operating normally. It's like you really want to damage kids' development because of your germaphobia.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If people need a mask medically that is one thing. The concern is that people feel they need a mask when they do not, because of all the fearmongering and virtue signaling that has happened over two years. For example, there were CNN reporters giving reports with a mask on outdoors, then taking it off once filmingwas finished.

Look around. Very few people are wearing masks. Why are you so triggered by that? I'm still figuring out how long I'll continue wearing a mask inside but I've had plenty of winters that I have gotten very sick and tired of being sick with one cold after another after another, followed by bronchitis or sometimes pneumonia. Masks don't impede my ability to socialize or get work done but if they keep me from getting sick as often that is good for me. Why does my mask bother you?

I'm bothered by the previous fearmongering, and that it will continue. If McAuliffe had been elected governor, I suspect we would still have masking in schools, and school closures as well. A lot of students have gotten sick the past few days, with many classes being below ten students.

Yep and we'll have a lot more sickness if people like you won't put on masks when Covid gets bad.

COVID was horrible in January when everyone was forced masked. I guess we weren't force masking hard enough then.

Masks have continually failed. I understand they're a political statement for you like a MAGA hat, but for the AOC wing of the Democratic party.

And it's getting sick that you're blaming schools for COVID when bars, restaurants, senior centers and everywhere else are operating normally. It's like you really want to damage kids' development because of your germaphobia.

Still trying to claim masks don't work, huh?

Enter actual science:

"Infections cut in half in Boston schools that kept mask mandates compared to schools that did not. Even though the schools that kept masks were higher risk than the comparison group. Lifting mask mandates led to 28,690 additional missed school days."

So have your kid wear a mask when Covid gets bad if you don't want them to get sick and miss school. Otherwise, you do you.

https://twitter.com/dgbassani/status/1559177139395649536?s=46&t=OGDzY1fxYPK_5jqsKy6bEQ&fbclid=IwAR2hDYKZwCPtxguVWiCgmHiZEVKwSW0kubMtKzCcCthrgZJRobKA9KOVug8

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Have the COVIDians moved onto worrying about flu in schools now?!?

It's like humans haven't survived for 100K+ years.

I wish they'd put the same energy into improving the academic performance of our public schools, which just suffered a significant amount of damage because of prolonged school closures they supported. The learning loss, especially among the most vulnerable students, is so sad.

Actually, about 30K don't survive the flu each year. Mainly the very young and the very old. So it's good to be concerned every year about the flu.

More kdis are estimated to have died from H1N1 than from COVID. What did we do then?

Get the vaccine (if you want to) and otherwise act normally unless you're immunocompromised (immunocompromised didn't start existing in March 2020, as some people like to think).

Maybe a lot more people know more about how to prevent the spread of diseases now? Maybe a lot more people understand that when they go out knowingly spreading their diseases they are adversely effecting other people? Pre-March 2020 colleagues would complain when a co-worker would came to our cube farm coughing and sneezing all over. Selfishness is nothing new. Maybe we all know a bit more now and can be more considerate of others, especially the immunocompromised and others with health conditions that make the flu a bigger risk for them.

What are you doing that is so vital to the human race that you can't mitigate the spread of the flu when you are contagious?

I think it's more about the person with the cold or flu or whatever having to work. Not everyone can take a paid sick or vacation day every time they get the sniffles.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If people need a mask medically that is one thing. The concern is that people feel they need a mask when they do not, because of all the fearmongering and virtue signaling that has happened over two years. For example, there were CNN reporters giving reports with a mask on outdoors, then taking it off once filmingwas finished.

Look around. Very few people are wearing masks. Why are you so triggered by that? I'm still figuring out how long I'll continue wearing a mask inside but I've had plenty of winters that I have gotten very sick and tired of being sick with one cold after another after another, followed by bronchitis or sometimes pneumonia. Masks don't impede my ability to socialize or get work done but if they keep me from getting sick as often that is good for me. Why does my mask bother you?

I'm bothered by the previous fearmongering, and that it will continue. If McAuliffe had been elected governor, I suspect we would still have masking in schools, and school closures as well. A lot of students have gotten sick the past few days, with many classes being below ten students.

Arlington follows CDC guidance and would do so even if McAuliffe were governor. We are lucky Youngkin was not governor when COVID hit - we would have had far more deaths and even greater spread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If people need a mask medically that is one thing. The concern is that people feel they need a mask when they do not, because of all the fearmongering and virtue signaling that has happened over two years. For example, there were CNN reporters giving reports with a mask on outdoors, then taking it off once filmingwas finished.

Look around. Very few people are wearing masks. Why are you so triggered by that? I'm still figuring out how long I'll continue wearing a mask inside but I've had plenty of winters that I have gotten very sick and tired of being sick with one cold after another after another, followed by bronchitis or sometimes pneumonia. Masks don't impede my ability to socialize or get work done but if they keep me from getting sick as often that is good for me. Why does my mask bother you?

I'm bothered by the previous fearmongering, and that it will continue. If McAuliffe had been elected governor, I suspect we would still have masking in schools, and school closures as well. A lot of students have gotten sick the past few days, with many classes being below ten students.

Yep and we'll have a lot more sickness if people like you won't put on masks when Covid gets bad.

COVID was horrible in January when everyone was forced masked. I guess we weren't force masking hard enough then.

Masks have continually failed. I understand they're a political statement for you like a MAGA hat, but for the AOC wing of the Democratic party.

And it's getting sick that you're blaming schools for COVID when bars, restaurants, senior centers and everywhere else are operating normally. It's like you really want to damage kids' development because of your germaphobia.

Where did PP blame schools for COVID?
Public health cautions in schools is intended to reduce spread; but if they didn't have those protocols, they would have been as significant spreaders has those other establishments you mentioned. Because those other public places were not following health protocols, schools NEEDED to in order to minimize risks to the students and staff.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If people need a mask medically that is one thing. The concern is that people feel they need a mask when they do not, because of all the fearmongering and virtue signaling that has happened over two years. For example, there were CNN reporters giving reports with a mask on outdoors, then taking it off once filmingwas finished.

Look around. Very few people are wearing masks. Why are you so triggered by that? I'm still figuring out how long I'll continue wearing a mask inside but I've had plenty of winters that I have gotten very sick and tired of being sick with one cold after another after another, followed by bronchitis or sometimes pneumonia. Masks don't impede my ability to socialize or get work done but if they keep me from getting sick as often that is good for me. Why does my mask bother you?

I'm bothered by the previous fearmongering, and that it will continue. If McAuliffe had been elected governor, I suspect we would still have masking in schools, and school closures as well. A lot of students have gotten sick the past few days, with many classes being below ten students.

Arlington follows CDC guidance and would do so even if McAuliffe were governor. We are lucky Youngkin was not governor when COVID hit - we would have had far more deaths and even greater spread.

Flagged for misinformation. Schools actually spread less than the community. Kids weren't locked in their rooms when schools were closed, they were at friends' houses in much less ventilated areas.

You closed schoolers and forced child maskers still can't admit you were wrong. It's really pathetic at this point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If people need a mask medically that is one thing. The concern is that people feel they need a mask when they do not, because of all the fearmongering and virtue signaling that has happened over two years. For example, there were CNN reporters giving reports with a mask on outdoors, then taking it off once filmingwas finished.

Look around. Very few people are wearing masks. Why are you so triggered by that? I'm still figuring out how long I'll continue wearing a mask inside but I've had plenty of winters that I have gotten very sick and tired of being sick with one cold after another after another, followed by bronchitis or sometimes pneumonia. Masks don't impede my ability to socialize or get work done but if they keep me from getting sick as often that is good for me. Why does my mask bother you?

I'm bothered by the previous fearmongering, and that it will continue. If McAuliffe had been elected governor, I suspect we would still have masking in schools, and school closures as well. A lot of students have gotten sick the past few days, with many classes being below ten students.

Yep and we'll have a lot more sickness if people like you won't put on masks when Covid gets bad.

COVID was horrible in January when everyone was forced masked. I guess we weren't force masking hard enough then.

Masks have continually failed. I understand they're a political statement for you like a MAGA hat, but for the AOC wing of the Democratic party.

And it's getting sick that you're blaming schools for COVID when bars, restaurants, senior centers and everywhere else are operating normally. It's like you really want to damage kids' development because of your germaphobia.

Where did PP blame schools for COVID?
Public health cautions in schools is intended to reduce spread; but if they didn't have those protocols, they would have been as significant spreaders has those other establishments you mentioned. Because those other public places were not following health protocols, schools NEEDED to in order to minimize risks to the students and staff.

To the poster responding to the forced maskers with actual facts, I'd just ignore it. These nutters are down to less than 5% of the population. They'll never admit they were wrong and no one pays attention to them any longer.

Imagine saying children need to bear the burden of disease mitigation because adults weren't and thinking that's a reasonable position?!?