Shortage of ice rinks in the DMV -- is there anything that we can do?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe there would be more interest if there were more facilities. As someone stated above, there's also a dearth of indoor pools in the DMV, relative to other areas. We should really ask our county leaders to do comparison studies and then bring our facilities up to par.

Is there really a dearth of pools? I am curious where you are getting this data.

Yes, there is a shortage of indoor pools, at least in Montgomery County. Same really for DC.

In MCPS, for example, there are really only 3 aquatic facilities for 25 high schools. They must share the pools. So each team is only allowed to hold swim practice 2x per week, to even out the practice opportunities.

The swim clubs are desperate for indoor pools. Some now look to use outdoor pools in the winter, due to the shortage of indoor pools.

At least there are plenty of outdoor pools in MoCo for summer use. (However, in DC there are very few outdoor pools, relative to the population.)

No shortage of pools in NoVA, plenty of high schools and rec centers with indoor pools.

Indoor ones as well. Arlington high schools have pools but they share them. No other high schools have them so you have schools, clubs, lessons, and recreational all fighting for limited pool time. It is ridiculous. Most of the facilities are old too and need renovation. There is no money in it.

The PP who stated that local governments just want to develop land (either small plate restaurants or multifamily units) is right. We fail on holistic planning that accounts for more schools/classrooms, better roads and infrastructure, green spaces (which are usually too small and about all you will get for "recreation"), actual recreation sites, childcare, etc.

There is a shortage of outdoor pools in NoVA. Waitlists are massive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe there would be more interest if there were more facilities. As someone stated above, there's also a dearth of indoor pools in the DMV, relative to other areas. We should really ask our county leaders to do comparison studies and then bring our facilities up to par.

Is there really a dearth of pools? I am curious where you are getting this data.

Yes, there is a shortage of indoor pools, at least in Montgomery County. Same really for DC.

In MCPS, for example, there are really only 3 aquatic facilities for 25 high schools. They must share the pools. So each team is only allowed to hold swim practice 2x per week, to even out the practice opportunities.

The swim clubs are desperate for indoor pools. Some now look to use outdoor pools in the winter, due to the shortage of indoor pools.

At least there are plenty of outdoor pools in MoCo for summer use. (However, in DC there are very few outdoor pools, relative to the population.)

No shortage of pools in NoVA, plenty of high schools and rec centers with indoor pools.

Indoor ones as well. Arlington high schools have pools but they share them. No other high schools have them so you have schools, clubs, lessons, and recreational all fighting for limited pool time. It is ridiculous. Most of the facilities are old too and need renovation. There is no money in it.

The PP who stated that local governments just want to develop land (either small plate restaurants or multifamily units) is right. We fail on holistic planning that accounts for more schools/classrooms, better roads and infrastructure, green spaces (which are usually too small and about all you will get for "recreation"), actual recreation sites, childcare, etc.

There is a shortage of outdoor pools in NoVA. Waitlists are massive.

Indoor ones as well. Arlington high schools have pools but they share them. No other high schools have them so you have schools, clubs, lessons, and recreational all fighting for limited pool time. It is ridiculous. Most of the facilities are old too and need renovation. There is no money in it.

The PP who stated that local governments just want to develop land (either small plate restaurants or multifamily units) is right. We fail on holistic planning that accounts for more schools/classrooms, better roads and infrastructure, green spaces (which are usually too small and about all you will get for "recreation"), actual recreation sites, childcare, etc.

[Anonymous]

The economics of running an ice rink are pretty daunting. Its not too bad in the winter, but keeping the ice full (and by full, I mean getting roughly $500 of revenue per hour per rink) in summer is hard. Every time a new rink or sheet of ice is opened, that means that thousands of dollars of extra ice-time need to be sold. And that's hard. Black Bear Sports Group - which owns Piney Orchard and Ice World in Md. and I think is now managing Ft. DuPont - specializes in buying financially distressed rinks, and then renting the ice to hockey teams and tournaments they also control. It seems like a pretty good system, but its not easy to replicate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Skating isn't a thing here - it's not the culture. You'd need to move north to get what you want.

Swimming is huge here and we don't have pools. So it is not a culture issue. It is a $ issue. These facilities require a lot of money to build and run. Land is expensive and governments would rather put up multi-unit housing that can be taxed and raise prices.

Guess what? Housing is a THING. Skating is an expensive hobby for privileged people that no one in this area really cares about!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Skating isn't a thing here - it's not the culture. You'd need to move north to get what you want.

Swimming is huge here and we don't have pools. So it is not a culture issue. It is a $ issue. These facilities require a lot of money to build and run. Land is expensive and governments would rather put up multi-unit housing that can be taxed and raise prices.

Guess what? Housing is a THING. Skating is an expensive hobby for privileged people that no one in this area really cares about!

Listen, I get where you're coming from, but honestly, all kids (some may argue, especially disadvantaged children) can benefit from more recreational facilities. I grew up in a small town in a mountain west state. We had a pool under the rec gym -- think "It's A Wonderful Life" scene when Jimmy Stewart and Donna Reed dance their way into the pool- it was under the small gym but not the big, basketball game gym. It was awesome. We were a population of timber workers and ranchers, but all the kids had a chance to take swimming lessons as a part of PE. Some kids even won swimming scholarships to get themselves out of there and change their fate. Don't tell me that there aren't plenty of kids from all SES's that wouldn't love the opportunity to learn how to ice skate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The economics of running an ice rink are pretty daunting. Its not too bad in the winter, but keeping the ice full (and by full, I mean getting roughly $500 of revenue per hour per rink) in summer is hard. Every time a new rink or sheet of ice is opened, that means that thousands of dollars of extra ice-time need to be sold. And that's hard. Black Bear Sports Group - which owns Piney Orchard and Ice World in Md. and I think is now managing Ft. DuPont - specializes in buying financially distressed rinks, and then renting the ice to hockey teams and tournaments they also control. It seems like a pretty good system, but its not easy to replicate.

It works because they buy rinks at 25 cents on the dollar. Rinks tend to cover operating costs pretty easily but the capital is the hang up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The economics of running an ice rink are pretty daunting. Its not too bad in the winter, but keeping the ice full (and by full, I mean getting roughly $500 of revenue per hour per rink) in summer is hard. Every time a new rink or sheet of ice is opened, that means that thousands of dollars of extra ice-time need to be sold. And that's hard. Black Bear Sports Group - which owns Piney Orchard and Ice World in Md. and I think is now managing Ft. DuPont - specializes in buying financially distressed rinks, and then renting the ice to hockey teams and tournaments they also control. It seems like a pretty good system, but its not easy to replicate.

It works because they buy rinks at 25 cents on the dollar. Rinks tend to cover operating costs pretty easily but the capital is the hang up.

This makes sense to me, though I don't have first hand information on it. BBSG definitely buys rinks on the cheap.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:When we were in Toronto, we saw ice rinks on the lowest level of some of the high rises. It's hard to take your hockey bag on public transportation though. I guess a lot of rink patrons are able to walk. Maybe the group that owns Rockville arena will consider adding another rink? They need it.

They've been considering it for roughly 15 years. I guess anytime now, eh? OP, my kid plays travel hockey here (I'm originally from Canada where I grew up with 8 rinks in 1 facility). Our clubs team never gets full ice practice, which means they aren't conditioning the way they should be. We plan to move north. Hockey just isn't what it should be here. They absolutely need a couple more rinks, but I don't see that happening at Rockville or anywhere in MoCo, it's pricey.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The economics of running an ice rink are pretty daunting. Its not too bad in the winter, but keeping the ice full (and by full, I mean getting roughly $500 of revenue per hour per rink) in summer is hard. Every time a new rink or sheet of ice is opened, that means that thousands of dollars of extra ice-time need to be sold. And that's hard. Black Bear Sports Group - which owns Piney Orchard and Ice World in Md. and I think is now managing Ft. DuPont - specializes in buying financially distressed rinks, and then renting the ice to hockey teams and tournaments they also control. It seems like a pretty good system, but its not easy to replicate.

It works because they buy rinks at 25 cents on the dollar. Rinks tend to cover operating costs pretty easily but the capital is the hang up.

This makes sense to me, though I don't have first hand information on it. BBSG definitely buys rinks on the cheap.

Reston is also run by a group that bought it as a distressed asset. Paul Mulvey is the one who took it fro
tennis club to ice rink. You can see the court material in the Olympic rink still.

[Anonymous]

Reston is also run by a group that bought it as a distressed asset. Paul Mulvey is the one who took it fro
tennis club to ice rink. You can see the court material in the Olympic rink still.

My beer league team plays at Reston. We keep hearing the rink isn't long for this world, as the land would be super valuable for other development. Anyone have any real information on this?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The economics of running an ice rink are pretty daunting. Its not too bad in the winter, but keeping the ice full (and by full, I mean getting roughly $500 of revenue per hour per rink) in summer is hard. Every time a new rink or sheet of ice is opened, that means that thousands of dollars of extra ice-time need to be sold. And that's hard. Black Bear Sports Group - which owns Piney Orchard and Ice World in Md. and I think is now managing Ft. DuPont - specializes in buying financially distressed rinks, and then renting the ice to hockey teams and tournaments they also control. It seems like a pretty good system, but its not easy to replicate.

But Cabin John and Wheaton are fully scheduled at all times. Their freestyle and public sessions are packed with people. I almost think it's unsafe that they allow so many people on the rink at one time during public skate. I think that, if each Cabin John and Wheaton built even one additional rink, it would be full all the time.

[Anonymous]

Put these in your yard: https://www.amazon.com/Outdoor-Durability-Interlocking-Removable-Flooring/dp/B07KTJSRS1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Skating isn't a thing here - it's not the culture. You'd need to move north to get what you want.

Swimming is huge here and we don't have pools. So it is not a culture issue. It is a $ issue. These facilities require a lot of money to build and run. Land is expensive and governments would rather put up multi-unit housing that can be taxed and raise prices.

Guess what? Housing is a THING. Skating is an expensive hobby for privileged people that no one in this area really cares about!

Listen, I get where you're coming from, but honestly, all kids (some may argue, especially disadvantaged children) can benefit from more recreational facilities. I grew up in a small town in a mountain west state. We had a pool under the rec gym -- think "It's A Wonderful Life" scene when Jimmy Stewart and Donna Reed dance their way into the pool- it was under the small gym but not the big, basketball game gym. It was awesome. We were a population of timber workers and ranchers, but all the kids had a chance to take swimming lessons as a part of PE. Some kids even won swimming scholarships to get themselves out of there and change their fate. Don't tell me that there aren't plenty of kids from all SES's that wouldn't love the opportunity to learn how to ice skate.

I am sure kids of all walks of life would love to learn to skate -- but not at the expense of having a roof over their heads! Affordable housing in the DMV is abysmal. This region is incredibly expensive. Let's get everyone a safe place to live and an education before we start harping on how we need more ice rinks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Reston is also run by a group that bought it as a distressed asset. Paul Mulvey is the one who took it fro
tennis club to ice rink. You can see the court material in the Olympic rink still.

My beer league team plays at Reston. We keep hearing the rink isn't long for this world, as the land would be super valuable for other development. Anyone have any real information on this?

They’ve said that since the Metro stop went in. The development has to expand a ways before that lot is ready. Owners get tax breaks for keeping that rink and they have a bunch of buildings. Maybe downturn in office space rentals post Covid changes timeline.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Skating isn't a thing here - it's not the culture. You'd need to move north to get what you want.

Swimming is huge here and we don't have pools. So it is not a culture issue. It is a $ issue. These facilities require a lot of money to build and run. Land is expensive and governments would rather put up multi-unit housing that can be taxed and raise prices.

Guess what? Housing is a THING. Skating is an expensive hobby for privileged people that no one in this area really cares about!

Listen, I get where you're coming from, but honestly, all kids (some may argue, especially disadvantaged children) can benefit from more recreational facilities. I grew up in a small town in a mountain west state. We had a pool under the rec gym -- think "It's A Wonderful Life" scene when Jimmy Stewart and Donna Reed dance their way into the pool- it was under the small gym but not the big, basketball game gym. It was awesome. We were a population of timber workers and ranchers, but all the kids had a chance to take swimming lessons as a part of PE. Some kids even won swimming scholarships to get themselves out of there and change their fate. Don't tell me that there aren't plenty of kids from all SES's that wouldn't love the opportunity to learn how to ice skate.

I am sure kids of all walks of life would love to learn to skate -- but not at the expense of having a roof over their heads! Affordable housing in the DMV is abysmal. This region is incredibly expensive. Let's get everyone a safe place to live and an education before we start harping on how we need more ice rinks.

I will say I don’t get the Tucker Road and Ft Dupont renovations as the local communities do not really use those rinks.