APS - elementary boys out of control?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Actually parenting and disciplining your children is amazing.

More people should try it.

YES

My kid is homeschooled right now so this whole thing isn’t an issue with me. But in defense of parents, this is unlikely to be all their fault. Unless they have massively changed since the pandemic, the parenting that was working before is now not preventing this behavior. The pandemic is the only variable we have so I think this is yet another impact of covid that we have to navigate. Parents need to figure that out but remember that it is harder than before because parents too are in the middle of a mental health crisis. And then a lot of it is kids just doing what their peers do so it’s possible that no amount of good parenting is going to stop a kid from acting this way if all the other kids keep doing it.

There are also tons of behaviors that only show up in the classroom. It's really hard to parent-away issues when you aren't present and they don't come up in other settings.

--parent of a 5 yo who (pre-pandemic) got in trouble several times daily for all of kindergarten for pushing with another kid over being near the front of the line and no amount of talking about it at home or consequences made any impact. Some behaviors really have to be dealt with in the moment by the present adult.

The best thing a parent can do it teach (and MODEL) respect for authority figures. So many of the problems we see are a result of kids not respecting adults. While a kid may not push someone at home, if they are told not to do it at school and are ignoring the staff, it's not just environment. The student needs to learn respectful behaviors at home.

I mean, do you think PP is letting her kid swear at her or something? The fact is that a parent can be perfect but have a kid who still does dumb things at school. You can’t just shift the blame like this, and really it might be nobody’s fault. Sometimes kids are just defiant in spite of everybody’s best efforts. No need to point fingers. We all just need to do our best and show the kids love.

You can love the kid and still show them that actions have consequences. Those consequences have to be appropriately tailored, but making excuses for a kid who is disruptive to their own and others' learning isn't showing them love. It's teaching them to be blind to their own faults, which will only cause them more pain in the long run.

Parenting matters, but schools can't just throw up their hands and say "well the parents aren't helping at home, so I guess we can't do anything about it." If the behavior continues, they need to do something different.

If it turns out that home stuff like abuse and neglect is underpinning it, the schools need to connect the kid to the right social services, but they still need to make clear that inappropriate behavior is still inappropriate behavior. Just imagine the kind of message a kid gets when they hear "well your home life is tough so I guess we won't hold you to the same standards as everyone else". Furthermore, if they are hurting other kids or disrupting their learning, the fact that the kid is coming from a tough environment doesn't change those harms. That's the difference between understanding and permissiveness. If the only message they get is permissiveness, you're setting that kid up to fail.

It's not always easy to say to a kid "I have these expectations of you because I love/understand/appreciate you, and because I think you can meet them." But that's what the job calls for.

I don’t know why you wrote all this when you explicitly say that we are advocating for the same thing (showing kids love), but yes I agree with it all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Actually parenting and disciplining your children is amazing.

More people should try it.

YES

My kid is homeschooled right now so this whole thing isn’t an issue with me. But in defense of parents, this is unlikely to be all their fault. Unless they have massively changed since the pandemic, the parenting that was working before is now not preventing this behavior. The pandemic is the only variable we have so I think this is yet another impact of covid that we have to navigate. Parents need to figure that out but remember that it is harder than before because parents too are in the middle of a mental health crisis. And then a lot of it is kids just doing what their peers do so it’s possible that no amount of good parenting is going to stop a kid from acting this way if all the other kids keep doing it.

There are also tons of behaviors that only show up in the classroom. It's really hard to parent-away issues when you aren't present and they don't come up in other settings.

--parent of a 5 yo who (pre-pandemic) got in trouble several times daily for all of kindergarten for pushing with another kid over being near the front of the line and no amount of talking about it at home or consequences made any impact. Some behaviors really have to be dealt with in the moment by the present adult.

The best thing a parent can do it teach (and MODEL) respect for authority figures. So many of the problems we see are a result of kids not respecting adults. While a kid may not push someone at home, if they are told not to do it at school and are ignoring the staff, it's not just environment. The student needs to learn respectful behaviors at home.

I mean, do you think PP is letting her kid swear at her or something? The fact is that a parent can be perfect but have a kid who still does dumb things at school. You can’t just shift the blame like this, and really it might be nobody’s fault. Sometimes kids are just defiant in spite of everybody’s best efforts. No need to point fingers. We all just need to do our best and show the kids love.

You can love the kid and still show them that actions have consequences. Those consequences have to be appropriately tailored, but making excuses for a kid who is disruptive to their own and others' learning isn't showing them love. It's teaching them to be blind to their own faults, which will only cause them more pain in the long run.

Parenting matters, but schools can't just throw up their hands and say "well the parents aren't helping at home, so I guess we can't do anything about it." If the behavior continues, they need to do something different.

If it turns out that home stuff like abuse and neglect is underpinning it, the schools need to connect the kid to the right social services, but they still need to make clear that inappropriate behavior is still inappropriate behavior. Just imagine the kind of message a kid gets when they hear "well your home life is tough so I guess we won't hold you to the same standards as everyone else". Furthermore, if they are hurting other kids or disrupting their learning, the fact that the kid is coming from a tough environment doesn't change those harms. That's the difference between understanding and permissiveness. If the only message they get is permissiveness, you're setting that kid up to fail.

It's not always easy to say to a kid "I have these expectations of you because I love/understand/appreciate you, and because I think you can meet them." But that's what the job calls for.

I don’t know why you wrote all this when you explicitly say that we are advocating for the same thing (showing kids love), but yes I agree with it all.

I wrote it all out because when hearing "these boys keep acting out and aren't changing their behavior, with consequences for others' learning," the first response of a number of people on this board is to say that some kids have difficult home lives (or just blame the parents). Both statements are true but irrelevant.

The school has a job to do. That job is made harder or easier based on certain factors they can't control, but their job remains their job. And if a problem isn't getting fixed it's totally appropriate for parents to ask whether and how the school plans to fix it. In practice those excuses (difficult home lives/parents) just get filtered down to the kids who are misbehaving, resulting in light or no consequences and a sense of learned helplessness from the admin. There's no point in calling for patience with a kid who is receiving the message that really their behavior isn't that bad because it doesn't seem to come with consequences and they have these excuses you see.

Like I said: it sets kids up to fail. And when the response of parents to issues like this is to make excuses and imply that the people complaining are whiners or insensitive, it just undercuts the ability to fix problems.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I haven’t read the whole thread. But at our APS school, they eat lunch outside, and I haven’t heard of any problems like this.

Our school eats outside and the classes are kept separate for lunch and recess (for at least one grade) because there have been so many issues this year. I’m not sure how that stops individual kids from acting out, but I guess it minimizes the chance of melee. DS is sick of these kids and complains regularly about the non-stop disruption and bad behavior. It’s a very small, but annoying, subset.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Actually parenting and disciplining your children is amazing.

More people should try it.

YES

My kid is homeschooled right now so this whole thing isn’t an issue with me. But in defense of parents, this is unlikely to be all their fault. Unless they have massively changed since the pandemic, the parenting that was working before is now not preventing this behavior. The pandemic is the only variable we have so I think this is yet another impact of covid that we have to navigate. Parents need to figure that out but remember that it is harder than before because parents too are in the middle of a mental health crisis. And then a lot of it is kids just doing what their peers do so it’s possible that no amount of good parenting is going to stop a kid from acting this way if all the other kids keep doing it.

There are also tons of behaviors that only show up in the classroom. It's really hard to parent-away issues when you aren't present and they don't come up in other settings.

--parent of a 5 yo who (pre-pandemic) got in trouble several times daily for all of kindergarten for pushing with another kid over being near the front of the line and no amount of talking about it at home or consequences made any impact. Some behaviors really have to be dealt with in the moment by the present adult.

Then you have not found the right consequence, either positive or negative. Look, I have a kid who can be very defiant and gets in trouble. I get it. Either your kid has some kind of issue where they can't physically control themselves, in which case get it diagnosed, documented, and get support in place. OR your kid is just getting away with it and you're not doing enough.

Oh come on. 5 yos are not known for their impulse control. That doesn't need a diagnosis. At time to line up their buddy says, "Haha, I'm going to get in front of you in line. Haha." So they push in front, consequences be damned, and the friend pushes back. And no, I didn't try water boarding for pulling out my 5 yos fingernails, but no normal consequence helped.

This is really something to be dealt with in the classroom. No reasonable teacher should punish the same kids for the same thing multiple times a day for months without changing something. Perhaps call kids to line up by birthday or the letter of their first name or the side of the room where they sit, etc. Or assign places in line. Anything else, but what the teacher was doing clearly wasn't working.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Actually parenting and disciplining your children is amazing.

More people should try it.

YES

My kid is homeschooled right now so this whole thing isn’t an issue with me. But in defense of parents, this is unlikely to be all their fault. Unless they have massively changed since the pandemic, the parenting that was working before is now not preventing this behavior. The pandemic is the only variable we have so I think this is yet another impact of covid that we have to navigate. Parents need to figure that out but remember that it is harder than before because parents too are in the middle of a mental health crisis. And then a lot of it is kids just doing what their peers do so it’s possible that no amount of good parenting is going to stop a kid from acting this way if all the other kids keep doing it.

There are also tons of behaviors that only show up in the classroom. It's really hard to parent-away issues when you aren't present and they don't come up in other settings.

--parent of a 5 yo who (pre-pandemic) got in trouble several times daily for all of kindergarten for pushing with another kid over being near the front of the line and no amount of talking about it at home or consequences made any impact. Some behaviors really have to be dealt with in the moment by the present adult.

Then you have not found the right consequence, either positive or negative. Look, I have a kid who can be very defiant and gets in trouble. I get it. Either your kid has some kind of issue where they can't physically control themselves, in which case get it diagnosed, documented, and get support in place. OR your kid is just getting away with it and you're not doing enough.

Oh come on. 5 yos are not known for their impulse control. That doesn't need a diagnosis. At time to line up their buddy says, "Haha, I'm going to get in front of you in line. Haha." So they push in front, consequences be damned, and the friend pushes back. And no, I didn't try water boarding for pulling out my 5 yos fingernails, but no normal consequence helped.

This is really something to be dealt with in the classroom. No reasonable teacher should punish the same kids for the same thing multiple times a day for months without changing something. Perhaps call kids to line up by birthday or the letter of their first name or the side of the room where they sit, etc. Or assign places in line. Anything else, but what the teacher was doing clearly wasn't working.

No, silly, this IS indeed a parenting issue. Your child is failing to listen to the adult in charge. I have raised 7 five-year-olds. I can't think of a single one who didn't know that I was in charge and who didn't do what I said to do. If your kid is pushing and shoving in line then there is something that you've done in your home training that has allowed him to do that. My suggestion is that you change your parenting and stop trying to pawn off your child's misbehavior onto some poor teacher to solve.

DP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Actually parenting and disciplining your children is amazing.

More people should try it.

YES

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Actually parenting and disciplining your children is amazing.

More people should try it.

YES

My kid is homeschooled right now so this whole thing isn’t an issue with me. But in defense of parents, this is unlikely to be all their fault. Unless they have massively changed since the pandemic, the parenting that was working before is now not preventing this behavior. The pandemic is the only variable we have so I think this is yet another impact of covid that we have to navigate. Parents need to figure that out but remember that it is harder than before because parents too are in the middle of a mental health crisis. And then a lot of it is kids just doing what their peers do so it’s possible that no amount of good parenting is going to stop a kid from acting this way if all the other kids keep doing it.

There are also tons of behaviors that only show up in the classroom. It's really hard to parent-away issues when you aren't present and they don't come up in other settings.

--parent of a 5 yo who (pre-pandemic) got in trouble several times daily for all of kindergarten for pushing with another kid over being near the front of the line and no amount of talking about it at home or consequences made any impact. Some behaviors really have to be dealt with in the moment by the present adult.

The best thing a parent can do it teach (and MODEL) respect for authority figures. So many of the problems we see are a result of kids not respecting adults. While a kid may not push someone at home, if they are told not to do it at school and are ignoring the staff, it's not just environment. The student needs to learn respectful behaviors at home.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Actually parenting and disciplining your children is amazing.

More people should try it.

YES

My kid is homeschooled right now so this whole thing isn’t an issue with me. But in defense of parents, this is unlikely to be all their fault. Unless they have massively changed since the pandemic, the parenting that was working before is now not preventing this behavior. The pandemic is the only variable we have so I think this is yet another impact of covid that we have to navigate. Parents need to figure that out but remember that it is harder than before because parents too are in the middle of a mental health crisis. And then a lot of it is kids just doing what their peers do so it’s possible that no amount of good parenting is going to stop a kid from acting this way if all the other kids keep doing it.

There are also tons of behaviors that only show up in the classroom. It's really hard to parent-away issues when you aren't present and they don't come up in other settings.

--parent of a 5 yo who (pre-pandemic) got in trouble several times daily for all of kindergarten for pushing with another kid over being near the front of the line and no amount of talking about it at home or consequences made any impact. Some behaviors really have to be dealt with in the moment by the present adult.

Then you have not found the right consequence, either positive or negative. Look, I have a kid who can be very defiant and gets in trouble. I get it. Either your kid has some kind of issue where they can't physically control themselves, in which case get it diagnosed, documented, and get support in place. OR your kid is just getting away with it and you're not doing enough.

Oh come on. 5 yos are not known for their impulse control. That doesn't need a diagnosis. At time to line up their buddy says, "Haha, I'm going to get in front of you in line. Haha." So they push in front, consequences be damned, and the friend pushes back. And no, I didn't try water boarding for pulling out my 5 yos fingernails, but no normal consequence helped.

This is really something to be dealt with in the classroom. No reasonable teacher should punish the same kids for the same thing multiple times a day for months without changing something. Perhaps call kids to line up by birthday or the letter of their first name or the side of the room where they sit, etc. Or assign places in line. Anything else, but what the teacher was doing clearly wasn't working.

No, silly, this IS indeed a parenting issue. Your child is failing to listen to the adult in charge. I have raised 7 five-year-olds. I can't think of a single one who didn't know that I was in charge and who didn't do what I said to do. If your kid is pushing and shoving in line then there is something that you've done in your home training that has allowed him to do that. My suggestion is that you change your parenting and stop trying to pawn off your child's misbehavior onto some poor teacher to solve.

DP.

Love this. Thank you!!!

[Anonymous]

Is this Cardinal? Seems on brand.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Actually parenting and disciplining your children is amazing.

More people should try it.

YES

My kid is homeschooled right now so this whole thing isn’t an issue with me. But in defense of parents, this is unlikely to be all their fault. Unless they have massively changed since the pandemic, the parenting that was working before is now not preventing this behavior. The pandemic is the only variable we have so I think this is yet another impact of covid that we have to navigate. Parents need to figure that out but remember that it is harder than before because parents too are in the middle of a mental health crisis. And then a lot of it is kids just doing what their peers do so it’s possible that no amount of good parenting is going to stop a kid from acting this way if all the other kids keep doing it.

There are also tons of behaviors that only show up in the classroom. It's really hard to parent-away issues when you aren't present and they don't come up in other settings.

--parent of a 5 yo who (pre-pandemic) got in trouble several times daily for all of kindergarten for pushing with another kid over being near the front of the line and no amount of talking about it at home or consequences made any impact. Some behaviors really have to be dealt with in the moment by the present adult.

The best thing a parent can do it teach (and MODEL) respect for authority figures. So many of the problems we see are a result of kids not respecting adults. While a kid may not push someone at home, if they are told not to do it at school and are ignoring the staff, it's not just environment. The student needs to learn respectful behaviors at home.

I mean, do you think PP is letting her kid swear at her or something? The fact is that a parent can be perfect but have a kid who still does dumb things at school. You can’t just shift the blame like this, and really it might be nobody’s fault. Sometimes kids are just defiant in spite of everybody’s best efforts. No need to point fingers. We all just need to do our best and show the kids love.

You can love the kid and still show them that actions have consequences. Those consequences have to be appropriately tailored, but making excuses for a kid who is disruptive to their own and others' learning isn't showing them love. It's teaching them to be blind to their own faults, which will only cause them more pain in the long run.

Parenting matters, but schools can't just throw up their hands and say "well the parents aren't helping at home, so I guess we can't do anything about it." If the behavior continues, they need to do something different.

If it turns out that home stuff like abuse and neglect is underpinning it, the schools need to connect the kid to the right social services, but they still need to make clear that inappropriate behavior is still inappropriate behavior. Just imagine the kind of message a kid gets when they hear "well your home life is tough so I guess we won't hold you to the same standards as everyone else". Furthermore, if they are hurting other kids or disrupting their learning, the fact that the kid is coming from a tough environment doesn't change those harms. That's the difference between understanding and permissiveness. If the only message they get is permissiveness, you're setting that kid up to fail.

It's not always easy to say to a kid "I have these expectations of you because I love/understand/appreciate you, and because I think you can meet them." But that's what the job calls for.

BINGO!!!
APS' approach in all matters is increasingly to excuse and lower standards and expectations out of "understanding and compassion and equity." Lowering standards makes your stats look better; but it is not preparing students for life, or for post-secondary education or training. The real world isn't going to excuse them forever no matter how much we try to change the world via restorative justice and increasing mental health access etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is this Cardinal? Seems on brand.

If it is, it doesn't match our experiences.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Actually parenting and disciplining your children is amazing.

More people should try it.

YES

My kid is homeschooled right now so this whole thing isn’t an issue with me. But in defense of parents, this is unlikely to be all their fault. Unless they have massively changed since the pandemic, the parenting that was working before is now not preventing this behavior. The pandemic is the only variable we have so I think this is yet another impact of covid that we have to navigate. Parents need to figure that out but remember that it is harder than before because parents too are in the middle of a mental health crisis. And then a lot of it is kids just doing what their peers do so it’s possible that no amount of good parenting is going to stop a kid from acting this way if all the other kids keep doing it.

There are also tons of behaviors that only show up in the classroom. It's really hard to parent-away issues when you aren't present and they don't come up in other settings.

--parent of a 5 yo who (pre-pandemic) got in trouble several times daily for all of kindergarten for pushing with another kid over being near the front of the line and no amount of talking about it at home or consequences made any impact. Some behaviors really have to be dealt with in the moment by the present adult.

Then you have not found the right consequence, either positive or negative. Look, I have a kid who can be very defiant and gets in trouble. I get it. Either your kid has some kind of issue where they can't physically control themselves, in which case get it diagnosed, documented, and get support in place. OR your kid is just getting away with it and you're not doing enough.

Oh come on. 5 yos are not known for their impulse control. That doesn't need a diagnosis. At time to line up their buddy says, "Haha, I'm going to get in front of you in line. Haha." So they push in front, consequences be damned, and the friend pushes back. And no, I didn't try water boarding for pulling out my 5 yos fingernails, but no normal consequence helped.

This is really something to be dealt with in the classroom. No reasonable teacher should punish the same kids for the same thing multiple times a day for months without changing something. Perhaps call kids to line up by birthday or the letter of their first name or the side of the room where they sit, etc. Or assign places in line. Anything else, but what the teacher was doing clearly wasn't working.

We used to take turns being "leader."
They can practice learning their alphabet and spelling by lining up alphabetically and then the line just rotates so the leader goes to the back and the next kid is leader the next day, etc.
We also counted off around the room "1" "2" and lined up when your group was called. Maybe that's how the founder of Southwest did it in school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Actually parenting and disciplining your children is amazing.

More people should try it.

YES

My kid is homeschooled right now so this whole thing isn’t an issue with me. But in defense of parents, this is unlikely to be all their fault. Unless they have massively changed since the pandemic, the parenting that was working before is now not preventing this behavior. The pandemic is the only variable we have so I think this is yet another impact of covid that we have to navigate. Parents need to figure that out but remember that it is harder than before because parents too are in the middle of a mental health crisis. And then a lot of it is kids just doing what their peers do so it’s possible that no amount of good parenting is going to stop a kid from acting this way if all the other kids keep doing it.

There are also tons of behaviors that only show up in the classroom. It's really hard to parent-away issues when you aren't present and they don't come up in other settings.

--parent of a 5 yo who (pre-pandemic) got in trouble several times daily for all of kindergarten for pushing with another kid over being near the front of the line and no amount of talking about it at home or consequences made any impact. Some behaviors really have to be dealt with in the moment by the present adult.

Then you have not found the right consequence, either positive or negative. Look, I have a kid who can be very defiant and gets in trouble. I get it. Either your kid has some kind of issue where they can't physically control themselves, in which case get it diagnosed, documented, and get support in place. OR your kid is just getting away with it and you're not doing enough.

Oh come on. 5 yos are not known for their impulse control. That doesn't need a diagnosis. At time to line up their buddy says, "Haha, I'm going to get in front of you in line. Haha." So they push in front, consequences be damned, and the friend pushes back. And no, I didn't try water boarding for pulling out my 5 yos fingernails, but no normal consequence helped.

This is really something to be dealt with in the classroom. No reasonable teacher should punish the same kids for the same thing multiple times a day for months without changing something. Perhaps call kids to line up by birthday or the letter of their first name or the side of the room where they sit, etc. Or assign places in line. Anything else, but what the teacher was doing clearly wasn't working.

No, silly, this IS indeed a parenting issue. Your child is failing to listen to the adult in charge. I have raised 7 five-year-olds. I can't think of a single one who didn't know that I was in charge and who didn't do what I said to do. If your kid is pushing and shoving in line then there is something that you've done in your home training that has allowed him to do that. My suggestion is that you change your parenting and stop trying to pawn off your child's misbehavior onto some poor teacher to solve.

DP.

Love this. Thank you!!!

Yeah, because no one ever has had children who behaved differently from each other or one "problem" child in a multi-child family. Never has there been a family with one very popular, successful, high achieving, well-behaved child and also a child who acted out, didn't do well academically, or bullied other kids. Never has there been a model family with a teen who became rebellious. It's all nurture - no nature or combination. All mental health problems and disorders are clearly parental in cause.

I do agree that parents play a role - obviously. However, the parent is not the one who needs to assert authority in the classroom when they aren't even there and the teacher absolutely needs to be the one in command and foster that respect. Nevertheless, some people just aren't good at that and our litigious society has limited what schools are able and willing to do. You can't yell at a kid and even if you speak firmly and authoritatively correct a child, some whacko will accuse the teacher of verbal and emotional abuse. That whacko doesn't even need to be the kid's parent.

You are indeed a very special person and I'm sure everyone is in awe of you for being blessed with perfectly responsive children. Very happy for you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Actually parenting and disciplining your children is amazing.

More people should try it.

whoa, tough talk from the 1950s.

Astonishingly, some of us are still doing this successfully today. I know, mind blown, right?

[Anonymous]

This is an entirely predictable consequence of closing schools and is part of the reason why the AAP and other pediatricians opposed school closings.