Moving to Bethesda or Kensington

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, you have asked a lightning rod sort of question. I’m black and live in Kensington. Unpopular opinion - there isn’t any public school in MoCo that I like for Black children. Start digging into the test data and you will find that there are very few schools where Black children test similarly to their white peers. And this is taking SES into account. The educated, wealthy Black doctors, lawyers, and consultants are not all raising untalented children. So one then has to wonder why are the children performing poorly? There has been a lot of research about implicit bias and lowered expectations for Black children, as well as different outcomes for Black children in schools with a predominantly white faculty. If you check the demographics of some of these schools, you will see that the majority of the non white staff is support staff and not teaching or admin. So your children are in an environment where everyone who looks like them is in a service role.

I have no problem with my children attending a school that has economic diversity, but I don’t want them at a school where every other child who looks like them is low SES. No matter what teachers say, there are lowered expectations for those students and your child will be lumped in to those lowered expectations.

If you can afford it, you may want to consider a cheaper house and pay for private. There are great neighborhoods in Kensington that are zoned to Rock View and Oakland Terrace that will be much more affordable than the Parkwood side of town. I will also note that children in our neighborhood of all races who attend Oakland Terrace, Rock View, Newport Mill MS and Einstein HS are lovely, bright, well adjusted children.

PP, so glad you wrote this and I totally agree. I watched some Black friends with brilliant kids really have their kids underperform in MCPS. On the other hand, the Black kids and families at our private N-8 really were stars, academically, socially, and athletically. I think the presence of these highly accomplished Black families really opened some people’s eyes. Strong Black students will have a larger cohort in private school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you make the assertion that socioeconics trumps race, then show US the data. Not your anecdotes.

Do you live in a white bubble? Do you not have black friends and neighbors who are living lives comparable to you in terms of work, schools, activities, church, etc? Do you think your white kid is smarter and will do better than your black Nextdoor neighbor? Do you not have black teachers at your school?

Maybe I’m a unicorn living in a UMC diverse bubble, but this is my reality. Some of the best teachers my kids and I ever had were black.

If you are living in a fancy zip code with only a tiny bit of diversity, then that’s your choice. If the only black people you know are low-income, then that’s an indictment on your real estate choices.

So you don't have the data, got it. Well it is 5am and I cannot sleep so it is your lucky day. This study by McKinsey shows black 10th graders in 2002 with family incomes above $75k scored only slightly better than white 10th graders with family incomes below $25k and worse than white 10th graders with family incomes between $25k and $50k. I believe these data have been replicated in more recent studies (but it's 5am and my desire to argue with people determined to.be ignorant on an anonymous forum only goes so far), in any case I am not sure what has changed in the past 20 years that would demonstrably change this.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://dropoutprevention.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/ACHIEVEMENT_GAP_REPORT_20090512.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjKlb36gL3zAhXbmnIEHUqwDYEQFnoECA8QAQ&usg=AOvVaw03_1uMch7ZFttUUEWuGlNp see p. 13

[Anonymous]

https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/whos-to-blame-for-the-black-white-achievement-gap/2020/01

Wealth, schools, parenting, expectations, etc. matter.

How about such things as talking to your infant/child/preschooler? We know how much that matters in terms of wiring the brain for language acquisition, grammar and writing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, you have asked a lightning rod sort of question. I’m black and live in Kensington. Unpopular opinion - there isn’t any public school in MoCo that I like for Black children. Start digging into the test data and you will find that there are very few schools where Black children test similarly to their white peers. And this is taking SES into account. The educated, wealthy Black doctors, lawyers, and consultants are not all raising untalented children. So one then has to wonder why are the children performing poorly? There has been a lot of research about implicit bias and lowered expectations for Black children, as well as different outcomes for Black children in schools with a predominantly white faculty. If you check the demographics of some of these schools, you will see that the majority of the non white staff is support staff and not teaching or admin. So your children are in an environment where everyone who looks like them is in a service role.

I have no problem with my children attending a school that has economic diversity, but I don’t want them at a school where every other child who looks like them is low SES. No matter what teachers say, there are lowered expectations for those students and your child will be lumped in to those lowered expectations.

If you can afford it, you may want to consider a cheaper house and pay for private. There are great neighborhoods in Kensington that are zoned to Rock View and Oakland Terrace that will be much more affordable than the Parkwood side of town. I will also note that children in our neighborhood of all races who attend Oakland Terrace, Rock View, Newport Mill MS and Einstein HS are lovely, bright, well adjusted children.

I agree with this 100% I think the best choices would be either private or a school with extremely low population of Black students, like the Whitman cluster. The latter would be potentially be social-culturally challenging, but I think provides a better chance for academic success.

However, regardless, as an affluent Black parent the #1 thing that you need to do in public school is to be present and make sure that everyone at the school knows you, knows your kid and knows that you are an affluent, professional family. I cannot tell you from my perspective how important this is to ensure that your kid does not get treated differently.

[Anonymous]

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/303150859_Housing_policy_is_school_policy_Economically_integrative_housing_promotes_academic_success_in_Montgomery_County_Maryland

MoCo did a study comparing test scores of kids in public housing: those in schools with higher poverty rates vs those in schools with lower poverty rates.

In short: the kids in the better schools (in terms of less high poverty kids) performed better. Again: all kids in the study hailed from very poor families living in subsidized housing (the difference being better neighborhoods).

I work in the anti-poverty space, so I’ve heard this and similar data presented in both big rooms (think: huge conferences) and small rooms (think: researchers and policy makers behind closed doors). Ive heard researchers from both sides of the aisle discuss this study and others (including data from mcps). The big takeaway is that the neighborhood matters, not just the school.

Here’s what they say:

1. Neighborhoods and people shape expectations and behaviors.

2. It’s easier to teach and learn when kids are well-slept and behave.

3. Peers matter.

Fast forward to where we are right now: nobody is talking about any of what the data shows. Instead, they are blaming “racism” and “systems” and sometimes teachers. The end result is no scalable progress.

If I have time, I’ll try to dig up some more data.

The biggest issue is mcps has dramatically shifting demographics with non-English speakers and they continue to use a school system that focuses on the lowest end of the spectrum—which is an admittedly growing population. Mcps over-emphasizes tests in two areas in a desperate effort to document improvement in reading and math (where they universally invest their resources) without recognizing the data and commonsense notion that parenting, wealth, and culture (in terms of education) play the biggest role in academic success for individual students and the school’s overall student body. Data backs that up: the data that’s routinely shared, and the data that is discussed in whispers behind closed doors in Rockville as well as National think tanks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/whos-to-blame-for-the-black-white-achievement-gap/2020/01

Wealth, schools, parenting, expectations, etc. matter.

How about such things as talking to your infant/child/preschooler? We know how much that matters in terms of wiring the brain for language acquisition, grammar and writing.

So does race. If you think achievement gaps are explained entirely by socioeconomic differences or "parenting" (the majority of Black fathers live with their children and are actually more involved than White fathers https://www.vox.com/2015/6/21/8820537/black-fathers-day ), you aren't paying attention. Schools matter too, but race determines access to housing (because of both discrimination and the theft of Black people's wealth from slavery to redlining) which determines access to schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/whos-to-blame-for-the-black-white-achievement-gap/2020/01

Wealth, schools, parenting, expectations, etc. matter.

How about such things as talking to your infant/child/preschooler? We know how much that matters in terms of wiring the brain for language acquisition, grammar and writing.

So does race. If you think achievement gaps are explained entirely by socioeconomic differences or "parenting" (the majority of Black fathers live with their children and are actually more involved than White fathers https://www.vox.com/2015/6/21/8820537/black-fathers-day ), you aren't paying attention. Schools matter too, but race determines access to housing (because of both discrimination and the theft of Black people's wealth from slavery to redlining) which determines access to schools.

Yes, I know all about systemic racism, redlining, etc. It’s literally my life’s work.

But I fear the response has been diluted if not derailed by fixating on history rather than addressing issues in real time. History is important, but redlining isn’t relevant to the op’s current decision of where to buy a home and enroll her child. They have resources that most county residents do not.

Nonetheless, they must make a choice that contemplates many issues, including race in terms of student body and teachers. Very important.

Lastly, the data (some of which has been shared already) doesn’t say it’s exclusively socioeconomics. Race matters. But it doesn’t only matter through the lens you assume; it’s not just “racism.” Race and culture matter when it comes to the educational level of the parents, fluency in oral and written English, expectations when it comes to behavior, subcultural norms related to school not being “cool,” etc.

This stuff is complex. Advocates and some researchers attempt to oversimplify it (often chasing research dollars seeking a spin). We should be able to properly educate kids in one of the more affluent public school systems in the country, yet we continue to struggle. I don’t think it’s because mcps is racist; it is indeed one of the most diverse, progressive and well-resourced systems on the planet.

[Anonymous]

https://pathforyou.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Closing-the-Opportunity-Gap-2016.pdf

This one quickly highlights the complexity of issues fueling the achievement gap and it tracks with mcps.

You’ll note that things like eating dinner together and traditional, stable homes with sufficient money, healthcare, etc. all play a role.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/whos-to-blame-for-the-black-white-achievement-gap/2020/01

Wealth, schools, parenting, expectations, etc. matter.

How about such things as talking to your infant/child/preschooler? We know how much that matters in terms of wiring the brain for language acquisition, grammar and writing.

So does race. If you think achievement gaps are explained entirely by socioeconomic differences or "parenting" (the majority of Black fathers live with their children and are actually more involved than White fathers https://www.vox.com/2015/6/21/8820537/black-fathers-day ), you aren't paying attention. Schools matter too, but race determines access to housing (because of both discrimination and the theft of Black people's wealth from slavery to redlining) which determines access to schools.

Yes, I know all about systemic racism, redlining, etc. It’s literally my life’s work.

But I fear the response has been diluted if not derailed by fixating on history rather than addressing issues in real time. History is important, but redlining isn’t relevant to the op’s current decision of where to buy a home and enroll her child. They have resources that most county residents do not.

Nonetheless, they must make a choice that contemplates many issues, including race in terms of student body and teachers. Very important.

Lastly, the data (some of which has been shared already) doesn’t say it’s exclusively socioeconomics. Race matters. But it doesn’t only matter through the lens you assume; it’s not just “racism.” Race and culture matter when it comes to the educational level of the parents, fluency in oral and written English, expectations when it comes to behavior, subcultural norms related to school not being “cool,” etc.

This stuff is complex. Advocates and some researchers attempt to oversimplify it (often chasing research dollars seeking a spin). We should be able to properly educate kids in one of the more affluent public school systems in the country, yet we continue to struggle. I don’t think it’s because mcps is racist; it is indeed one of the most diverse, progressive and well-resourced systems on the planet.

The fact that you put racism in quotes is pretty troubling. Racism works in tangible and documented ways. Bad parenting exists among families of all cultures and races. This stuff is complex but you sound extremely biased.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/whos-to-blame-for-the-black-white-achievement-gap/2020/01

Wealth, schools, parenting, expectations, etc. matter.

How about such things as talking to your infant/child/preschooler? We know how much that matters in terms of wiring the brain for language acquisition, grammar and writing.

So does race. If you think achievement gaps are explained entirely by socioeconomic differences or "parenting" (the majority of Black fathers live with their children and are actually more involved than White fathers https://www.vox.com/2015/6/21/8820537/black-fathers-day ), you aren't paying attention. Schools matter too, but race determines access to housing (because of both discrimination and the theft of Black people's wealth from slavery to redlining) which determines access to schools.

Yes, I know all about systemic racism, redlining, etc. It’s literally my life’s work.

But I fear the response has been diluted if not derailed by fixating on history rather than addressing issues in real time. History is important, but redlining isn’t relevant to the op’s current decision of where to buy a home and enroll her child. They have resources that most county residents do not.

Nonetheless, they must make a choice that contemplates many issues, including race in terms of student body and teachers. Very important.

Lastly, the data (some of which has been shared already) doesn’t say it’s exclusively socioeconomics. Race matters. But it doesn’t only matter through the lens you assume; it’s not just “racism.” Race and culture matter when it comes to the educational level of the parents, fluency in oral and written English, expectations when it comes to behavior, subcultural norms related to school not being “cool,” etc.

This stuff is complex. Advocates and some researchers attempt to oversimplify it (often chasing research dollars seeking a spin). We should be able to properly educate kids in one of the more affluent public school systems in the country, yet we continue to struggle. I don’t think it’s because mcps is racist; it is indeed one of the most diverse, progressive and well-resourced systems on the planet.

The fact that you put racism in quotes is pretty troubling. Racism works in tangible and documented ways. Bad parenting exists among families of all cultures and races. This stuff is complex but you sound extremely biased.

Their post was quite reasonable and the fact that you're attempting to dismiss them because of some perceived slight is suspect.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:https://www.researchgate.net/publication/303150859_Housing_policy_is_school_policy_Economically_integrative_housing_promotes_academic_success_in_Montgomery_County_Maryland

MoCo did a study comparing test scores of kids in public housing: those in schools with higher poverty rates vs those in schools with lower poverty rates.

In short: the kids in the better schools (in terms of less high poverty kids) performed better. Again: all kids in the study hailed from very poor families living in subsidized housing (the difference being better neighborhoods).

I work in the anti-poverty space, so I’ve heard this and similar data presented in both big rooms (think: huge conferences) and small rooms (think: researchers and policy makers behind closed doors). Ive heard researchers from both sides of the aisle discuss this study and others (including data from mcps). The big takeaway is that the neighborhood matters, not just the school.

Here’s what they say:

1. Neighborhoods and people shape expectations and behaviors.

2. It’s easier to teach and learn when kids are well-slept and behave.

3. Peers matter.

Fast forward to where we are right now: nobody is talking about any of what the data shows. Instead, they are blaming “racism” and “systems” and sometimes teachers. The end result is no scalable progress.

If I have time, I’ll try to dig up some more data.

The biggest issue is mcps has dramatically shifting demographics with non-English speakers and they continue to use a school system that focuses on the lowest end of the spectrum—which is an admittedly growing population. Mcps over-emphasizes tests in two areas in a desperate effort to document improvement in reading and math (where they universally invest their resources) without recognizing the data and commonsense notion that parenting, wealth, and culture (in terms of education) play the biggest role in academic success for individual students and the school’s overall student body. Data backs that up: the data that’s routinely shared, and the data that is discussed in whispers behind closed doors in Rockville as well as National think tanks.[/quote


The study is fascinating. So what’s the solution then? Housing policies that don’t concentrate poverty? Seems like busing wouldn’t actually solve the problem if neighborhood trumps school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/whos-to-blame-for-the-black-white-achievement-gap/2020/01

Wealth, schools, parenting, expectations, etc. matter.

How about such things as talking to your infant/child/preschooler? We know how much that matters in terms of wiring the brain for language acquisition, grammar and writing.

So does race. If you think achievement gaps are explained entirely by socioeconomic differences or "parenting" (the majority of Black fathers live with their children and are actually more involved than White fathers https://www.vox.com/2015/6/21/8820537/black-fathers-day ), you aren't paying attention. Schools matter too, but race determines access to housing (because of both discrimination and the theft of Black people's wealth from slavery to redlining) which determines access to schools.

Yes, I know all about systemic racism, redlining, etc. It’s literally my life’s work.

But I fear the response has been diluted if not derailed by fixating on history rather than addressing issues in real time. History is important, but redlining isn’t relevant to the op’s current decision of where to buy a home and enroll her child. They have resources that most county residents do not.

Nonetheless, they must make a choice that contemplates many issues, including race in terms of student body and teachers. Very important.

Lastly, the data (some of which has been shared already) doesn’t say it’s exclusively socioeconomics. Race matters. But it doesn’t only matter through the lens you assume; it’s not just “racism.” Race and culture matter when it comes to the educational level of the parents, fluency in oral and written English, expectations when it comes to behavior, subcultural norms related to school not being “cool,” etc.

This stuff is complex. Advocates and some researchers attempt to oversimplify it (often chasing research dollars seeking a spin). We should be able to properly educate kids in one of the more affluent public school systems in the country, yet we continue to struggle. I don’t think it’s because mcps is racist; it is indeed one of the most diverse, progressive and well-resourced systems on the planet.

The fact that you put racism in quotes is pretty troubling. Racism works in tangible and documented ways. Bad parenting exists among families of all cultures and races. This stuff is complex but you sound extremely biased.

Their post was quite reasonable and the fact that you're attempting to dismiss them because of some perceived slight is suspect.

How exactly does it help OP anymore than talking about redlining? Should we dissect OP's parenting? She is AA so clearly that means we need to talk about that right? SMH

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/whos-to-blame-for-the-black-white-achievement-gap/2020/01

Wealth, schools, parenting, expectations, etc. matter.

How about such things as talking to your infant/child/preschooler? We know how much that matters in terms of wiring the brain for language acquisition, grammar and writing.

So does race. If you think achievement gaps are explained entirely by socioeconomic differences or "parenting" (the majority of Black fathers live with their children and are actually more involved than White fathers https://www.vox.com/2015/6/21/8820537/black-fathers-day ), you aren't paying attention. Schools matter too, but race determines access to housing (because of both discrimination and the theft of Black people's wealth from slavery to redlining) which determines access to schools.

Yes, I know all about systemic racism, redlining, etc. It’s literally my life’s work.

But I fear the response has been diluted if not derailed by fixating on history rather than addressing issues in real time. History is important, but redlining isn’t relevant to the op’s current decision of where to buy a home and enroll her child. They have resources that most county residents do not.

Nonetheless, they must make a choice that contemplates many issues, including race in terms of student body and teachers. Very important.

Lastly, the data (some of which has been shared already) doesn’t say it’s exclusively socioeconomics. Race matters. But it doesn’t only matter through the lens you assume; it’s not just “racism.” Race and culture matter when it comes to the educational level of the parents, fluency in oral and written English, expectations when it comes to behavior, subcultural norms related to school not being “cool,” etc.

This stuff is complex. Advocates and some researchers attempt to oversimplify it (often chasing research dollars seeking a spin). We should be able to properly educate kids in one of the more affluent public school systems in the country, yet we continue to struggle. I don’t think it’s because mcps is racist; it is indeed one of the most diverse, progressive and well-resourced systems on the planet.

The fact that you put racism in quotes is pretty troubling. Racism works in tangible and documented ways. Bad parenting exists among families of all cultures and races. This stuff is complex but you sound extremely biased.

Their post was quite reasonable and the fact that you're attempting to dismiss them because of some perceived slight is suspect.

How exactly does it help OP anymore than talking about redlining? Should we dissect OP's parenting? She is AA so clearly that means we need to talk about that right? SMH

I put racism in quotes because many people (including researchers, and including some posters here) oversimplify everything complex to “racism” as if it’s a singular thing that is easily identified and combatted. Sorry, but you can’t actually explain the achievement gap by saying “racism.” That doesn’t mean racism isn’t real. That doesn’t mean racism shouldn’t be identified and addressed.

And, to be clear, I don’t think anyone should dissect the op and their parenting. To the contrary: all my comments assume it’s a well-resourced family who prioritizes education as evidenced by the two areas they are exploring. I don’t have any doubt that their child will thrive academically…because the key indicators that consistently impact academic achievement are there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/whos-to-blame-for-the-black-white-achievement-gap/2020/01

Wealth, schools, parenting, expectations, etc. matter.

How about such things as talking to your infant/child/preschooler? We know how much that matters in terms of wiring the brain for language acquisition, grammar and writing.

So does race. If you think achievement gaps are explained entirely by socioeconomic differences or "parenting" (the majority of Black fathers live with their children and are actually more involved than White fathers https://www.vox.com/2015/6/21/8820537/black-fathers-day ), you aren't paying attention. Schools matter too, but race determines access to housing (because of both discrimination and the theft of Black people's wealth from slavery to redlining) which determines access to schools.

Yes, I know all about systemic racism, redlining, etc. It’s literally my life’s work.

But I fear the response has been diluted if not derailed by fixating on history rather than addressing issues in real time. History is important, but redlining isn’t relevant to the op’s current decision of where to buy a home and enroll her child. They have resources that most county residents do not.

Nonetheless, they must make a choice that contemplates many issues, including race in terms of student body and teachers. Very important.

Lastly, the data (some of which has been shared already) doesn’t say it’s exclusively socioeconomics. Race matters. But it doesn’t only matter through the lens you assume; it’s not just “racism.” Race and culture matter when it comes to the educational level of the parents, fluency in oral and written English, expectations when it comes to behavior, subcultural norms related to school not being “cool,” etc.

This stuff is complex. Advocates and some researchers attempt to oversimplify it (often chasing research dollars seeking a spin). We should be able to properly educate kids in one of the more affluent public school systems in the country, yet we continue to struggle. I don’t think it’s because mcps is racist; it is indeed one of the most diverse, progressive and well-resourced systems on the planet.

The fact that you put racism in quotes is pretty troubling. Racism works in tangible and documented ways. Bad parenting exists among families of all cultures and races. This stuff is complex but you sound extremely biased.

Their post was quite reasonable and the fact that you're attempting to dismiss them because of some perceived slight is suspect.

How exactly does it help OP anymore than talking about redlining? Should we dissect OP's parenting? She is AA so clearly that means we need to talk about that right? SMH

I put racism in quotes because many people (including researchers, and including some posters here) oversimplify everything complex to “racism” as if it’s a singular thing that is easily identified and combatted. Sorry, but you can’t actually explain the achievement gap by saying “racism.” That doesn’t mean racism isn’t real. That doesn’t mean racism shouldn’t be identified and addressed.

And, to be clear, I don’t think anyone should dissect the op and their parenting. To the contrary: all my comments assume it’s a well-resourced family who prioritizes education as evidenced by the two areas they are exploring. I don’t have any doubt that their child will thrive academically…because the key indicators that consistently impact academic achievement are there.

"I am super smart and everything I said is valid even if it is not relevant to OP but don't you dare mention redlining"

[Anonymous]

Also lol at the idea that MCPS is not racist. Clearly shows a lack of understanding of what racism is.