The World Tour Continues in Honduras...

[Anonymous]

President Obama calls the Honduran coup 'illegal'? THIS is international interventionism (from a man who could not rouse himself to forcefully and immediately condemn the anti-democracy practices in Iran because he was didn't wish to engage in such!).

Does he understand that 'tinkering' with the Constitution as Zelaya proposed is why there is no free press left in Venezuela these days?

When the Turkish military steps in as guardians of Ataturk's vision and remove democratically elected (yes) politicians who threaten the State with fundamentalist or totalitarian tendencies, is THIS ILLEGAL?

[Anonymous]

Yes, it's illegal.
You want him to send a nuke?

[Anonymous]

Of course not. I want him to stay out of it. Guess what? Chavez himself was imprisoned for a coup attempt against a democratically elected government. He has no problem with coups, as long as they are leftist directed.

[Anonymous]

am I hearing the whispering of a conservative??? Ahh speak more my friend.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes, it's illegal.
You want him to send a nuke?

I want him to keep his mouth shut.

[Anonymous]

Are you actually defending a military coup? Could you be any more on the wrong side of democracy?

[Anonymous]

Yes. Are you actually defending the gradual chipping away of democracy through illegal referendums to change a country's constitution? Do you think that fragile Latin American democracies might have had a reason for defining term limits for presidencies? Maybe the Honduran Congress and Supreme Court don't think King for Life presidencies a la Chavez are that democratic?

[Anonymous]

They have done the same thing in Turkey since Ataturk. Turkey--a beacon of democracy that bridges Europe and Asia. Does it bother you when they do it there?

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:They have done the same thing in Turkey since Ataturk. Turkey--a beacon of democracy that bridges Europe and Asia. Does it bother you when they do it there?

Yes, it bothers me when the Turkish military intervenes in politics. To make a point of such military intervention while at the same time describing Turkey as "a beacon of democracy" is contradictory. A true beacon of democracy would not have such intervention.

Turkey gets praise in the US because of its pro-Western policies. If Turkey were to be less pro-American, its political system would get less praise and phrases such as "beacon of democracy" would not be used. It is a sad tendency among some to equate pro-American policies with democracy and vice versa (Hence, Venezuela is not considered a democracy while Egypt is, despite Venezuela having a much more open system of government).

[Anonymous]

Don't know enough about Honduras to have a clear idea of what is going on but I think the coup is troubling regardless of Zelaya's intentions. Countries with democratic systems are better served when they stick to the rule of law. Unless I find out that Zelaya was planning his own military coup, I would be reluctant to support an army takeover.

And yes I know that people like Chavez have to be watched -- please don't go hysterical on me about that. It is possible to be critical of Chavez and still support an order transition of power.

[Anonymous]

Venezuela has a "much more open system of democracy"??????? There is no free press there. The agriculture is going the way of Zimbabwe (down the toilet). Basic staples are in are short supply and must be imported. The opposition has been systematically routed and intimidated. Venezuela has support the FARC and meddled in Colombia. Hugo Chavez mounted his own coup not too long ago. Venezuela was never perfect. It was corrupt. The politicians there were self-serving. However, it prided itself on its Bolivarian history and a democratic tradition--that for better or worse could continue to try to perfect itself over time. What is in place there has put a stop to that-- is the worst kind of cynical, self-entrenching totalitarianism. My relatives there are in deep despair. Regarding Turkey--Turkey sure beats a lot of middle east alternatives (including Egypt). Not every country's 'democracy' will look exactly like ours. The role of the military in Turkey to intervene to protect the founding, secular vision is uncomfy for us. That does not make it wrong; it seems to have served them quite well thus far. I am sure that our commander in chief will condemn it loudly the next time they intervene to protect their democractic institutions however.

[Anonymous]

I wonder how long this little DC Urban Mom forum would last in Venezuela!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Venezuela has a "much more open system of democracy"??????? There is no free press there. The agriculture is going the way of Zimbabwe (down the toilet). Basic staples are in are short supply and must be imported. The opposition has been systematically routed and intimidated. Venezuela has support the FARC and meddled in Colombia. Hugo Chavez mounted his own coup not too long ago. Venezuela was never perfect. It was corrupt. The politicians there were self-serving. However, it prided itself on its Bolivarian history and a democratic tradition--that for better or worse could continue to try to perfect itself over time. What is in place there has put a stop to that-- is the worst kind of cynical, self-entrenching totalitarianism. My relatives there are in deep despair. Regarding Turkey--Turkey sure beats a lot of middle east alternatives (including Egypt). Not every country's 'democracy' will look exactly like ours. The role of the military in Turkey to intervene to protect the founding, secular vision is uncomfy for us. That does not make it wrong; it seems to have served them quite well thus far. I am sure that our commander in chief will condemn it loudly the next time they intervene to protect their democractic institutions however.

For all the things one can criticize Chavez about (and there are many), it is also true he lost a referendum to revamp the constitution.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/03/world/americas/03venezuela.html

That means that people were allowed to vote and he had to accept the outcome. So, yes, I think that is evidence that Venezuela does have a more open system of democracy than Egypt, which is what was stated above. That would never happen in Egypt.

Is it as democratic as it should be? No. Neither is Turkey. But you seem willing to accept some imperfect democracies and not others. Double standard.

[Anonymous]

That Chaves lost the referendum speaks only to the spirit of those who still believe in democracy in Venezuela. Up to the referendum he absolutely tied one hand behind the back of those opposing it. He used everything in his arsenal: near total media control. His goons threaten people who speak out in opposition with outright violence, trumped up charges, imprisonment or denial of career and economic opportunities. How long could you individually resists threats and intimidation? How long do you think that the Venezuelan people in toto can sustain a meaningful opposition to Chavez with no access to press or political voice? This creeping dictatorship by referendum is one of the nastiest new strategies of totalitarianism, and is exactly what was being attempted by Zelaya in Honduras (with Chavez' full support). What you saw with that referendum was the last gasp of democracy in Venezuela. He plans to re-mount the referendum as soon as possible. By then he will have tied even more of the opposition up in knots.

[jsteele]

Nobody is arguing that things are perfect in Venezuela. All you are doing is making it clear that you have a rather unorthodox definition of "democracy". In your mind, when an unelected military intervenes in the political process, that's democratic. If an elected leader uses referendums to bring about change, that's undemocratic. Most people would believe the opposite.

You are welcome to support any form of government you wish. If you think military intervention in Honduras is justified, fine. That's your opinion. Just don't try to claim that is democratic. It's not. Not in Honduras and not in Turkey.