Lawyers: Unreasonable agreement to gain online access to credit card account??

[Anonymous]

I was signing up for online access to one of my credit card accounts. Reading the agreement I have to sign off on before they'll give me access, these two clauses concerned me (the all caps are theirs, sorry):

"YOU HEREBY AGREE THAT ANY DISPUTE, CLAIM OR CONTROVERSY ARISING NOW OR IN THE FUTURE UNDER OR RELATING IN ANY WAY TO THIS AGREEMENT, OR TO THE ONLINE SERVICE ("CLAIM"), REGARDLESS OF THE NATURE OF THE CAUSE(S) OF ACTION ASSERTED (INCLUDING CLAIMS FOR INJUNCTIVE, DECLARATORY, OR EQUITABLE RELIEF), SHALL BE RESOLVED BY BINDING ARBITRATION. CLAIMS SUBJECT TO ARBITRATION INCLUDE CLAIMS THAT ARE MADE AS COUNTERCLAIMS, CROSS CLAIMS, THIRD PARTY CLAIMS, INTERPLEADERS, OR OTHERWISE. ARBITRATION REPLACES THE RIGHT TO GO TO COURT, AND YOU THEREFORE AGREE TO WAIVE ANY RIGHT THAT YOU OR WE MIGHT OTHERWISE HAVE HAD TO A JURY TRIAL OR THE OPPORTUNITY TO LITIGATE ANY CLAIMS IN COURT BEFORE EITHER A JUDGE OR JURY. YOU FURTHER AGREE THAT YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO BRING A CLASS ACTION OR OTHER REPRESENTATIVE ACTION ...[it goes on for a while along these lines with details that probably don't matter] ...
This Arbitration Agreement shall survive: (i) termination or changes in the Agreement, and the relationship between you and us concerning the Agreement; and (ii) the bankruptcy of any party or any similar proceeding initiated by you or on your behalf. If any portion of this Arbitration provision is deemed invalid or unenforceable, the remaining portions shall nevertheless remain in force."

And:
"You acknowledge and agree that you are personally responsible for your conduct while using the Online Service and agree to indemnify and hold us and our officers, directors, employees and agents harmless from and against any loss, damage, liability, cost or expense of any kind (including, but not limited to, reasonable attorneys' fees) that we may incur in connection with a third party claim or otherwise, in relation to your use of the Online Service or the use of the Online Service by anyone using your Card number, account number, PIN, User ID or Password or your violation of this Agreement or the rights of any third party (including, but not limited to, privacy rights). Your obligations under this paragraph shall survive termination of this Agreement."

Am I opening myself up to major liability with these? Would you sign this?

[Anonymous]

How do you feel about the agreements you have to check off to use Apple products and/or things like FB?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How do you feel about the agreements you have to check off to use Apple products and/or things like FB?

I don't recall what the FB agreement said, it was so long ago. Are you saying that these clauses are SOP on all agreements?

[Anonymous]

I'm a bank attorney who has personally been involved in drafting credit card terms and conditions, and yes these are clauses I would include. The first sets out how disputed will ultimately be resolved (by arbitration rather than judge and jury) and the second is a limitation of liability and indemnification clause. The second will be in virtually every cardholder agreement you enter into. A lawyer that neglects to include that clause would/should be fired on the spot, that's how important it is.

[Anonymous]

^^ disputes, not disputed

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm a bank attorney who has personally been involved in drafting credit card terms and conditions, and yes these are clauses I would include. The first sets out how disputed will ultimately be resolved (by arbitration rather than judge and jury) and the second is a limitation of liability and indemnification clause. The second will be in virtually every cardholder agreement you enter into. A lawyer that neglects to include that clause would/should be fired on the spot, that's how important it is.

Thanks. And you're comfortable signing such agreements yourself, as a consumer?

[Anonymous]

OP, why don't you call up customer service and ask them to redline it?

LOL.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a bank attorney who has personally been involved in drafting credit card terms and conditions, and yes these are clauses I would include. The first sets out how disputed will ultimately be resolved (by arbitration rather than judge and jury) and the second is a limitation of liability and indemnification clause. The second will be in virtually every cardholder agreement you enter into. A lawyer that neglects to include that clause would/should be fired on the spot, that's how important it is.

Thanks. And you're comfortable signing such agreements yourself, as a consumer?

Not pp, but of course. If you don't like it, don't sign up for the service.

[Anonymous]

I worked at a firm that handled class actions. Both clauses are standard. They have been standard for 20+ years. They may or may not be enforceable, depending on the jurisdiction. We got the arbitration clause tossed, most of the time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I was signing up for online access to one of my credit card accounts. Reading the agreement I have to sign off on before they'll give me access, these two clauses concerned me (the all caps are theirs, sorry):

"YOU HEREBY AGREE THAT ANY DISPUTE, CLAIM OR CONTROVERSY ARISING NOW OR IN THE FUTURE UNDER OR RELATING IN ANY WAY TO THIS AGREEMENT, OR TO THE ONLINE SERVICE ("CLAIM"), REGARDLESS OF THE NATURE OF THE CAUSE(S) OF ACTION ASSERTED (INCLUDING CLAIMS FOR INJUNCTIVE, DECLARATORY, OR EQUITABLE RELIEF), SHALL BE RESOLVED BY BINDING ARBITRATION. CLAIMS SUBJECT TO ARBITRATION INCLUDE CLAIMS THAT ARE MADE AS COUNTERCLAIMS, CROSS CLAIMS, THIRD PARTY CLAIMS, INTERPLEADERS, OR OTHERWISE. ARBITRATION REPLACES THE RIGHT TO GO TO COURT, AND YOU THEREFORE AGREE TO WAIVE ANY RIGHT THAT YOU OR WE MIGHT OTHERWISE HAVE HAD TO A JURY TRIAL OR THE OPPORTUNITY TO LITIGATE ANY CLAIMS IN COURT BEFORE EITHER A JUDGE OR JURY. YOU FURTHER AGREE THAT YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO BRING A CLASS ACTION OR OTHER REPRESENTATIVE ACTION ...[it goes on for a while along these lines with details that probably don't matter] ...
This Arbitration Agreement shall survive: (i) termination or changes in the Agreement, and the relationship between you and us concerning the Agreement; and (ii) the bankruptcy of any party or any similar proceeding initiated by you or on your behalf. If any portion of this Arbitration provision is deemed invalid or unenforceable, the remaining portions shall nevertheless remain in force."

And:
"You acknowledge and agree that you are personally responsible for your conduct while using the Online Service and agree to indemnify and hold us and our officers, directors, employees and agents harmless from and against any loss, damage, liability, cost or expense of any kind (including, but not limited to, reasonable attorneys' fees) that we may incur in connection with a third party claim or otherwise, in relation to your use of the Online Service or the use of the Online Service by anyone using your Card number, account number, PIN, User ID or Password or your violation of this Agreement or the rights of any third party (including, but not limited to, privacy rights). Your obligations under this paragraph shall survive termination of this Agreement."

Am I opening myself up to major liability with these? Would you sign this?

OP-

Have you compared this to the terms of the credit card that you've already accepted? Odds are they are similar.

More than that, odds are the terms for online access to ANY credit card are similar.

That's not something the credit card companies compete on, so they have no incentive to do anything but what provides them the maximum protection and leverage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a bank attorney who has personally been involved in drafting credit card terms and conditions, and yes these are clauses I would include. The first sets out how disputed will ultimately be resolved (by arbitration rather than judge and jury) and the second is a limitation of liability and indemnification clause. The second will be in virtually every cardholder agreement you enter into. A lawyer that neglects to include that clause would/should be fired on the spot, that's how important it is.

Thanks. And you're comfortable signing such agreements yourself, as a consumer?

Pp here and yes. I don't see a big risk of getting into trouble with the indemnification clause as long as I use diligent measures to protect my PIN, passwords, etc. Think about it from the issuer's point of view too - they shouldn't be responsible for charges if you're careless with those.