Reasons why one would not accept TJ offer?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wierd they couldn’t figure out new questions every year?

They did. The notion that the problems seen at Curie were the exact same as those asked in future admissions test is false. "Buying the answers" really means "buying past questions and answers".

Personally, I think the solution would have been to publicly release past exams to reduce the benefit of places like Curies

No, it's not that kind of test. The solution was to scrap it and change to a different type of test. Which they did. Problem solved. People complain, but people complain about everything.

The test was the SHSAT. The current "test" isn't actually a test. It's a combination of "what I did for my summer vacation" combined with "why I really really really want to go to TJ"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wierd they couldn’t figure out new questions every year?

They did. The notion that the problems seen at Curie were the exact same as those asked in future admissions test is false. "Buying the answers" really means "buying past questions and answers".

Personally, I think the solution would have been to publicly release past exams to reduce the benefit of places like Curies

No, it's not that kind of test. The solution was to scrap it and change to a different type of test. Which they did. Problem solved. People complain, but people complain about everything.

The test was the SHSAT. The current "test" isn't actually a test. It's a combination of "what I did for my summer vacation" combined with "why I really really really want to go to TJ"

Which is why you are so happy that your kid doesn't have to go to a school filled with those sorts of kids!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wierd they couldn’t figure out new questions every year?

They did. The notion that the problems seen at Curie were the exact same as those asked in future admissions test is false. "Buying the answers" really means "buying past questions and answers".

Personally, I think the solution would have been to publicly release past exams to reduce the benefit of places like Curies

No, it's not that kind of test. The solution was to scrap it and change to a different type of test. Which they did. Problem solved. People complain, but people complain about everything.

Right but if people understood the test strategies for quantitative reasoning because they studied with similar materials, isn’t that just studying? I mean everyone can study the basic math for the SAT, but very few get perfect math. I don’t understand why they couldn’t move away from the quant q or change how they assess the results. A few essays much worse than adjusting the previous testing approach.

Could have kept the quant testing approach and maybe adjusted or normd it and added the 1.5% and experience factors. Why not both?

So when you keep the test and apply the 1.5% approach, you can foia the test results and the obvious disparity in test results from different schools would be come apparent. They cannot keep rogirous testing and achieve their goals.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wierd they couldn’t figure out new questions every year?

They did. The notion that the problems seen at Curie were the exact same as those asked in future admissions test is false. "Buying the answers" really means "buying past questions and answers".

Personally, I think the solution would have been to publicly release past exams to reduce the benefit of places like Curies

No, it's not that kind of test. The solution was to scrap it and change to a different type of test. Which they did. Problem solved. People complain, but people complain about everything.

Right but if people understood the test strategies for quantitative reasoning because they studied with similar materials, isn’t that just studying? I mean everyone can study the basic math for the SAT, but very few get perfect math. I don’t understand why they couldn’t move away from the quant q or change how they assess the results. A few essays much worse than adjusting the previous testing approach.

Could have kept the quant testing approach and maybe adjusted or normd it and added the 1.5% and experience factors. Why not both?

So when you keep the test and apply the 1.5% approach, you can foia the test results and the obvious disparity in test results from different schools would be come apparent. They cannot keep rogirous testing and achieve their goals.

Much like TO, the poor academic results will be/are fairly obvious and TJ will probably figure out a way to reintroduce rigor into selection.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wierd they couldn’t figure out new questions every year?

They did. The notion that the problems seen at Curie were the exact same as those asked in future admissions test is false. "Buying the answers" really means "buying past questions and answers".

Personally, I think the solution would have been to publicly release past exams to reduce the benefit of places like Curies

No, it's not that kind of test. The solution was to scrap it and change to a different type of test. Which they did. Problem solved. People complain, but people complain about everything.

Right but if people understood the test strategies for quantitative reasoning because they studied with similar materials, isn’t that just studying? I mean everyone can study the basic math for the SAT, but very few get perfect math. I don’t understand why they couldn’t move away from the quant q or change how they assess the results. A few essays much worse than adjusting the previous testing approach.

Could have kept the quant testing approach and maybe adjusted or normd it and added the 1.5% and experience factors. Why not both?

So when you keep the test and apply the 1.5% approach, you can foia the test results and the obvious disparity in test results from different schools would be come apparent. They cannot keep rogirous testing and achieve their goals.

Much like TO, the poor academic results will be/are fairly obvious and TJ will probably figure out a way to reintroduce rigor into selection.

Only if their ranking drops deeper and the attrition rate rises further. They already had to open Algebra review sessions to help those falling behind. The principal now talks with every freshman who wants to drop out. Just give it a bit.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Colleges care ONLY about GPA.

If you think your child cannot land in the top half of the TJ class AND get a 4.0 (w) or above GPA - then avoid TJ.

The overall curriculum at TJ is same as any base HS - they all cover mostly the same courses such as AP Stats, AP Cal A/B or B/C, AP Physics.

Well TJ has been forcefully transformed into being more of a base HS, while the original intent was for it have a much higher curriculum than that of base HS's.

As originally designed, TJ historically drew the attention of exceptional students because those students saw it as their only public school choice to get access to advanced curriculum that went beyond AP levels. These students were not coming to TJ to finish at AP level, but start there and progress further. For instance with math, an academically advanced TJ student historically expected to complete AP calculus BC in freshman/sophomore, MultiVariable & Linear in sophomore/junior, differential & discrete in junior/senior, and adv math techniques & scientific math in senior year. While these courses still exist currently, the enrollment in these courses is very low due to the caliber of admitted class. The middle schools in the past have supported and nurtured exceptional students by providing access to precalculus courses in the middle school itself, allowing them to go far beyond AP level if they chose TJ.

Over the past two decades, the rise of equity and diversity politics in FCPS and other feeder county schools has created roadblocks for these exceptional students in achieving precalculus or calculus by the end of middle school. The maximum access they now have is for Algebra 2 Trig, and even this requires numerous approvals and summer course enrollment. As a result, the pool of top talent entering TJ with trig and, at most, precalculus credits from middle school has been drastically reduced to less than a fifth of the new class. Currently, fewer than a hundred students in a TJ class enroll in courses beyond Multivariable/Linear.

When was this? (From you post, apparently this was 3-4 decades ago. As an FCPS alum myself, I'm not sure I can agree with you on this.)

FWIW, "equity and diversity politics" have only been around for the past 5 years or so. That is not why middle schools do not offer precal classes. (At TJ, 00 freshmen have completed trig/precal and go straight to calculus? Are they all from Loudoun County?)

If you're unaware of FCPS's history of racial quota-based admissions to TJ dating back to the mid-'90s, you were probably not yet born or likely in preschool. Many younger activists are manipulated into thinking they are starting this equity battle anew, to have you take ownership of it, and work for free. Politicians define the battle to their benefit. Activist is merely a pawn in their battle.

There is no such history since it's always been illegal. This is just misinformation spread by some bitter parents with an axe to grind.

Well that's not true. Quotas used to be openly used by admission committees until they were deemed unconstitutional in Bakke.
It wasn't until 2002 that race could not give you extra "points" in the admission process when the Supreme court delivered the opinion in Gratz.
The current TJ admissions process is relying heavily on the 2016 Fisher case where the texas system of allocating seats to high schools under their top 10% plan was found constitutuonal.
Fisher is probably a big reason why the court did not grant cert for the TJ admissions case. Overturning Fisher would be an absolute nail in the coffin by saying that race neutral rules promulgated for race conscious reasons are also illegal.

[Anonymous]

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Oh the imaginary race based admissions again. TJ admissions are race-blind. Further, the majority of the county believes that the more equitable process that allowed all residents to participate not just those that can afford to drop $20k for test answers was a good thing.

Imaginary?

"FCPS created a race-based affirmative action program to admit more black and Hispanic students. The program was in effect for the admissions process for the graduating classes of 1997 through 2002; the county ended it because of legal challenges to similar programs. Following the end of this program, the share of black and Hispanic students at the school decreased from 9.4 percent in 1997–98 to 3.5 percent in 2003–04."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson_High_School_for_Science_and_Technology

That's called affirmative action and for years was good for schools, students, and society as a whole. For an example, look at the Twin Cities in the 90s. Then there were the court cases that dismantled affirmative action which led UT to create its 10% rule (for better or worse) that inspired the new TJ 1.5% admissions process.

Are you sure FCPS should follow UT? They just laid off 60 DEI staff. If so, all the staff that you worship would get the axe.

DEI is a decades old idea.

UT created their 10% rule in the 90s. There are positives and negatives to it, certainly (I grew up in Texas and have personally and know many people who have benefitted or been harmed by it). But TJ is following a decades-old idea, not "DEI".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Real Curie Owner,
If you’re legit, I feel bad for you that your company has some a negative stigma by most of the community. You seem well intentioned.

I don’t have a problem with the type of work you mention in your example of helping a kid pre-learn the material before a class. But many many people thought that prepping for a test meant to find intrinsic scholastic aptitude was gaming the system. That’s what the test was scrapped and it’s never getting brought back.

Prepping for a test is not gaming, it's called studying. I've never heard of curie but doing some googling, it looks like it's run by indians. They are kicking our ass because they want it more than we do. They are willing to watch their children struggle and cry and do hard things in the hopes their children can realize the american dream ... and so the baton for immigrant model minority is being passed from east asian to south asian just as it was passed from jew to east asian decades ago. Sure there will still be east asians populating top programs for a while but you can see the tide changing.

It's not only run by South Asians - it appears to only serve South Asians. Curie-ous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"A lot of these folks X" -> stereotyping a whole race based on experiences with a very small number -> racist.

If you got mugged by an African-American, would you go around talking about how black people are thugs?

DP. The person above is not stereotyping an entire race with that comment.

The fact that there are a large number of upper-middle class and "wealthy" Asians who are attempting to protect their prior privileged access to an exceptional academic opportunity says nothing about Asians more broadly.

The fact that by and large, they are not publicly joined by members of other races (except occasionally by people who are married to Asians acting in the self interest of their biracial children or Asian stepchildren) is what permits the person above to refer to the group as "Asian".

It is Asians who are making this argument publicly, but it is far from all Asians.

There is a school similar to TJ in NYC where they also tried to change the admissions criteria for similar reasons. The school was almost 80% asian and they talked about how asian families were buying their way into the school. Then it was pointed out that asians have a higher poverty rate than blacks or hispanics in NYC because they are all immigrants. Most of the asian students were on free/reduced lunch, a higher propiortion than the school in general which was about 40% free/reduced lunch. Money has nothing to do with it, it's all about race.

If money is what gets you into tj, there would have been more white kids. White people in northern virginia are wealthier than asians and yet the biggest absolute increase in population under the new admissions process was among white students.

It is clear that some parents want their kids to get great opportunities but don't necessarily want their kids to stress out and bust their ass to earn them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We didn't believe our child would be in the top 10% or even the top 25% at TJ, so we declined the offer last year. Child was part of middle school math club, but there was significant gap between their math proficiency and that of students on the school's MathCounts team. We knew this gap would only be wider if our child were to attend TJ.

+1 here. The peer group at TJ is so high-achieving that if your kid isn't far-and-away the highest-achieving at his MS, DC will be mediocre at TJ. In that case, you/DC have to decide whether the opportunities at TJ outweigh the suppressed college choices.

People keep saying this but I'd like to see some data. I went to a magnet school in nyc and people said there was a penalty in college admissions because harvard wouldn't accept more than ~10 kids per year from my high school. After recent data released by harvard during the affirmative action litigation, it turns out that the penalty for attending my high school approximated the asian racial penalty. Staying at your base school doesn't make you any less asian, going to tjhsst doesn't make you any more asian. We don't know what the future looks like but i'd like to see data before believing that uva is flat out lying about discriminating against tj students.

When I was in college they were selecting more. A friend at Princeton e-mailed me asking the count of Stuyvesant students..

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"A lot of these folks X" -> stereotyping a whole race based on experiences with a very small number -> racist.

If you got mugged by an African-American, would you go around talking about how black people are thugs?

DP. The person above is not stereotyping an entire race with that comment.

The fact that there are a large number of upper-middle class and "wealthy" Asians who are attempting to protect their prior privileged access to an exceptional academic opportunity says nothing about Asians more broadly.

The fact that by and large, they are not publicly joined by members of other races (except occasionally by people who are married to Asians acting in the self interest of their biracial children or Asian stepchildren) is what permits the person above to refer to the group as "Asian".

It is Asians who are making this argument publicly, but it is far from all Asians.

There is a school similar to TJ in NYC where they also tried to change the admissions criteria for similar reasons. The school was almost 80% asian and they talked about how asian families were buying their way into the school. Then it was pointed out that asians have a higher poverty rate than blacks or hispanics in NYC because they are all immigrants. Most of the asian students were on free/reduced lunch, a higher propiortion than the school in general which was about 40% free/reduced lunch. Money has nothing to do with it, it's all about race.

If money is what gets you into tj, there would have been more white kids. White people in northern virginia are wealthier than asians and yet the biggest absolute increase in population under the new admissions process was among white students.

It is clear that some parents want their kids to get great opportunities but don't necessarily want their kids to stress out and bust their ass to earn them.

Can't agree more

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We didn't believe our child would be in the top 10% or even the top 25% at TJ, so we declined the offer last year. Child was part of middle school math club, but there was significant gap between their math proficiency and that of students on the school's MathCounts team. We knew this gap would only be wider if our child were to attend TJ.

+1 here. The peer group at TJ is so high-achieving that if your kid isn't far-and-away the highest-achieving at his MS, DC will be mediocre at TJ. In that case, you/DC have to decide whether the opportunities at TJ outweigh the suppressed college choices.

People keep saying this but I'd like to see some data. I went to a magnet school in nyc and people said there was a penalty in college admissions because harvard wouldn't accept more than ~10 kids per year from my high school. After recent data released by harvard during the affirmative action litigation, it turns out that the penalty for attending my high school approximated the asian racial penalty. Staying at your base school doesn't make you any less asian, going to tjhsst doesn't make you any more asian. We don't know what the future looks like but i'd like to see data before believing that uva is flat out lying about discriminating against tj students.

Seems you already have the data.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wierd they couldn’t figure out new questions every year?

They did. The notion that the problems seen at Curie were the exact same as those asked in future admissions test is false. "Buying the answers" really means "buying past questions and answers".

Personally, I think the solution would have been to publicly release past exams to reduce the benefit of places like Curies

No, it's not that kind of test. The solution was to scrap it and change to a different type of test. Which they did. Problem solved. People complain, but people complain about everything.

Right but if people understood the test strategies for quantitative reasoning because they studied with similar materials, isn’t that just studying? I mean everyone can study the basic math for the SAT, but very few get perfect math. I don’t understand why they couldn’t move away from the quant q or change how they assess the results. A few essays much worse than adjusting the previous testing approach.

Could have kept the quant testing approach and maybe adjusted or normd it and added the 1.5% and experience factors. Why not both?

So when you keep the test and apply the 1.5% approach, you can foia the test results and the obvious disparity in test results from different schools would be come apparent. They cannot keep rogirous testing and achieve their goals.

Much like TO, the poor academic results will be/are fairly obvious and TJ will probably figure out a way to reintroduce rigor into selection.

DP. I think the new admissions process is a good improvement over the old one. Probably revising the essay questions to include a couple more math/science reasoning questions would be a good idea. They might change that but probably not in the next couple years. The lawsuits probably will keep the process unchanged longer than it might otherwise have been.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:It's amazing how often this poster brings up this Curie and TJ thing.

Ultimately though, even if this ridiculous fairytale were true, the admissions response was not to fix the testing process but instead remove testing almost entirely.

People also forget that there were two other tests, but those are gone as well.

The unnecessary reference to "conservatives" reveals what this is really about for them.

It is worth noting that initially, this was a necessity because under COVID-19 protocols at the time, it wasn't realistic to ask 3,000 applicants to sit for a proctored exam during the worst phase of infections and deaths. This would have had to happen in January or February of 2021 and there was no way it would have worked.

I actually would have been fine with maintaining some testing structure - the existence of the tests wasn't the problem, it was their use as a gatekeeping element. A student under the previous system could have scored in the 99th percentile on both the Quant-Q and the ACT Aspire Science, but if they scored in the 74th percentile on the Aspire Reading, they'd be ineligible to be semifinalists. That process was broken too.

There's nothing wrong with testing as long as it's used as a data point amongst many others in a holistic admissions process and cannot be used by outsiders as evidence of racism in the process. Unfortunately, that's precisely what happens when parents of students whose strongest metric is their exam scores claim that admissions officers are dinging their kids on personality scores because of race - when it's actually their personality.

But they threw out testing. Fine. Now no one can leverage that advantage. But then they punished kids for what their parents do for a living, so instead of equalizing the advantage they just shifted it to another group of kids.

And even further, the lack of differentiation of curriculum in middle school, maybe norm’s for each county, also punished kids who take more rigorous workloads.

They didn’t even consider base schools when assigning their 1.5% to AAP centers.

They achieved their goal. But the results coming in also confirm the critics concern.

DP. No students were punished for what happened. Nor were students punished who want to go to TJ, no matter how much you complain on their behalf.

Yeah penalized in the admissions process is more accurate.

Sounds like you may not be familiar with the current admissions process. No punishment, no penalization.

Some kids receive points because they get free lunch. Kids whose parents make a certain amount of money don’t. Seems like a penalty that is out of a kids control.

I prefer income discrimination to racial discrimination. Give kids on free reduced lunch a quota. You are absolutely allowed to create a quota for kids on free/reduced lunch if you want.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Does Curie offer Summer classes?

Yes, Curie offers a wide range of summer STEM courses. We are enrolled at Curie during the year for academics, and DC wants to continue challenge during the summer as well, but do something more interesting. We enrolled in Robotics & Arduinos last summer, and this summer looking forward to Product Design STEM Camp. There is also the Creative Writing Bootcamp, where as part of final project DC wrote an amazing story about visiting Galapagos Islands with their favorite Marvel characters.

Thank you we will look into those classes right way. DC is a hard core marvel fan too. lol.

We are very happy with Curie, but almost every Curie class is full. Please be considerate to existing students and don't make it more crowded. Please consider other enrichment centers.

About how many total kids go to Curie?

Curie has multiple locations as well as online classes. They dont publish counts but likely few hundreds.

One year they had over 100 admits to TJ so obviously that many. But could the number be close to 1000 8th graders?

I have a feeling many of those kids would get in without thus program. At the end of the day it's just like taking a practice SAT test. Eventually you have to also keep up in class.

Well no. Obviously they would not have - that was one of the reasons they changed the admissions test. Did they do fine once they got in? Probably. But no, without the specific prep directed at strategies for answering specific test questions, they would not have gotten in

That's why I think the new test is so clever. It's much less hackable (cheatable).

Once you account for per school quota, I think Curie's results have gone up. It is easier to prep kids fpr an essay than for advanced math problems.

You are funny. No one enrolls in Curie to prep for a silly essay. As was mentioned above, Curie Learning has always taught math, science, and english enrichment for advanced learners. It's the significant volume of Curie students that apply to TJ that result in their high acceptance numbers.

DP. Who is funny? The essays are the most important part of the application, since everyone who is eligible is taking similar classes and has a similar profile. They may be "light" or "silly" in your opinion but they are serious enough to allow the admissions people to pick their admitted class.

I agree, essays have words, and words have the power to inspire, motivate, comfort, and heal. TJ is a STEM school, but instead of math and science, words are used to select applicants. Admissions people figured this out, alright.

Most importantly, words communicate. Which is vitally important for STEM - as every STEM professional knows, whether or not they are good at it.

TJ admission essays are never short of passionate about STEM cliche words, on which selection heavily relies. However, just knowing the words alone dont seem to be preventing a student from receiving smoothly curved C or D in TJ Math 1. That the irony of admitting student based on sob words, instead of math and science.

Eh. You can blather about "sob stories" but it just shows you don't know what you're talking about.

It was made explicit in Loudoun's reforms that were passed around the same time as TJ, that reviewers would be evaluated and instructed to grade based on equity.