Initial boundary options for Woodward study area are up

[Anonymous]

Worth noting that when MCPS added a new MS in the BCC district, the options included prioritizing diversity versus prioritizing commuting distance. I was surprised that they opted for the latter. Part of the argument at the time was that long/complex commutes to school disproportionately disadvantage lower income families because they may have less flexible work schedules and/or greater reliance on time-consuming/costly public transportation. It meant that the two MS in the BCC catchment have very disparate populations - Silver Creek has much more racial/ethnic/SES diversity whereas Westland became even whiter and higher SES.

Two points from this experience:

1) MCPS doesn't always put diversity above all other critiera.

AND

2) Personally as a white, higher SES famliy living close to Silver Creek, I initially hoped that they would strive for a reasonable balance among the school populations. But our DC's actual experience at SC was very very positive (much better than when an older kid attended Westland) and I'm glad MCPS leaned into avoiding long commutes even if it meant leaving demographic disparities in place. Long bus rides are a terrible outcome for all students and families.

I hope that lesson is remembered when they decide how to redistrict in this case!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Option 3 is def. an option you morons. The scores are too low in a bunch of schools and MCPS is all about optics. The kids bussed in will raise those scores which will make the school look good

No they won’t because people with means who would improve those scores will go private or move. -DP

This. If MCPS does some extreme option with bussing and taking away neighborhood schools, so many families with means will go private.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Option 3 has got to be the throw away option.

It has united DCUM in opposition to it.

Do you think those lower income clusters are going to benefit from being shipped across town? Do you think their parents want the extra commuting time and costs, much less to be surrounded by a bunch of affluent families who most definitely don't want it? I think the universal feedback is people want to attend local schools in their neighborhoods that aren't overcrowded. If they can enhance diversity and minimize overcrowding around the edges, then great! Anything else is an exercise in social engineering and will make just about everyone unhappy.

This! Even many students in lower socio economic schools don’t want to be bussed away, they want equality in resources. This should be the focus!

This. I don’t want my kids bused and I am fine with a lower income school. I do care w don’t have the same classes and opportunities.

You gotta make your voice heard. The BOE apparently doesn’t get this idea and thinks bussing is fine it seems. It’s one thing to shift the edge of a boundary over to another school if not in the walk zone. Say moving the edge of Wheaton to Woodward or the edge of Gaithersburg HS to Crown. Especially when the old school isn’t significantly closer than the new school. But don’t go sending kids to a further school!

I’d be thrilled if we were switched to Wheaton as our DCC does not have the classes my kids need. I cannot imagine we’ll move and I don’t fully care as my youngest is in hs so it will not impact us. You want it, you fight. BOE does not care.

It’s unclear from these boundary options what will happen to the DCC. The program survey also went out recently so I worry there won’t be any more consortiums and lottery options. Don’t assume anything Will stay the same with MCPS!

The program analysis will determine the future of the consortia and other schools' special programs. We should get an update on their plans in June.

Yeah I would keep my eye on this because I think they are (somewhat quietly) planning to change this paradigm in a pretty significant way. I think Niki Hazel and the superintendent put out a very short survey that did not really ask the right questions. My strong sense is they’ve already decided they want to completely change many of the programs and locations and already know what they plan to do but needed to do a performative “survey” as part of their process. I bet this has been decided mostly behind closed doors already and they’re going to push it through quickly while we are distracted by the boundary discussions because they need to do a lot of work shifting resources, processes, staff and spaces before implementation. At the last board meeting, even the board was unclear on the timeline and order of when this would happen. And it’s hard to know if you are for or against a change for programs and consortia when you don’t even know what your home assigned school option will be yet.

+1. And just to add another wrinkle: once we know the new plan for the regions and special programs, that will change all the enrollment projections they've been using so far, so these initial options will be even less relevant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kids were in public schools until Covid and the never ending MCPS shutdown. We saw the writing on the wall and left for private but with major regret not sending my oldest to BCC which still weighs heavy.

To see this happening is horrible and so disheartening. These kids deserve neighborhood schools with strong communities where they can get to and from activities and home easily. Putting a wealthier kid in a poorer school and vice versa isn’t going to change outcomes for the poor kids because it starts at home.

This is just a way for MCPS to better hide the exploding number of FARMs students at the underperforming schools without giving them what they really need in serious substantial support. It’s insulting and unfair to those kids.

The wealthy kids won’t mingle with the FARMs kids and vice versa no matter what and it will cause students to self segregate in the schools. I saw this first hand at Rosemary Hills where kids played with other kids only inside their own neighborhoods. Even little kids gravitate onlt to people they identity with. Middle school and high school it’s even worse. Social engineering is not going to work.

Meanwhile, Most anyone with means will pull their kid for private rather than send their kid cross county. This is a disaster and I am grateful my kids werent caught up in this. Montgomery county will see serious flight to other counties and a major loss in tax revenue and school support as the wealthy flee to private and to live elsewhere. What a mess they are creating. So sorry for all of you affected.

This is just icing on the cake for this exodus. The tax and spend policies of MD have always made MD less financially attractive for upper middle class and wealthy, but the latest changes will hammer families with $300k incomes and higher. It’s going to create further incentive to move to NOVA. Lower tax revenues and the spiral will continue.

This is coming from a center left moderate who has voted exclusively Democrat since 2008.

Then move. It’s not so simple for many of us with jobs and activities.

I’m in no position to move either. My comment was more about driving away wealthy people esp those without kids which will impact tax revenues. Same with discouraging people from choosing MoCo over NoVA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:What will happen to property values of those in WJ rezoned to Woodward?

I think these are largely baked in at this point. Everyone who has bought in the last ten years has known that WJ was overcrowded, Woodward was opening to relieve that overcrowding, that the two schools are very close to each other, and anything in the general area would be fair game to go to the new school instead of the old overcrowded one. And if you bought more than ten years ago I’m not listening to your complaints about property values.
- agent

I don’t think that’s right. You’d have to be paying a ton of attention to things to know about that anywhere near 10 years ago. Most people know the zoned school and not a ton more.

Plus, even people aware of Woodward wouldn’t know what being in Woodward would mean, and we still don’t. If Woodward is districted in a way to make it a “good school,” there probably won’t be a big impact. But if the ultimate zoning makes it a meaningful “worse” school than current WJ, it will definitely impact property values.

Option 3 would be devasting for those in the Farmland district. Who would buy a house there knowing that your kid is going to be bused across the county to a school with just 13% white students and close to 50% FARMs.

Especially since they said time and time again that they would not bus kids across county for diversity purposes. This is exactly that. We have plenty of diversity in Farmland already - FARMS and ESOL. Lots of MC people, single moms in apartments and rentals. They will struggle with the long distance to Kennedy. When they could simply walk to Woodward. Never more disappointed in MCPS.

I don’t think the boundary people are local or get it. It makes no sense.

Either Option 3 is a poison pill for any effort to address segregation, or these 4 options are just a complete waste of time.

Or, with all due respect, you are in denial about MCPS and the Board and their intentions. There was a time when this was exactly what they wanted. We’ll see what the current board says/does.

The board needs to read the room about DEI. There is a lot of appetite for DEI-based lawsuits right now and I can imagine the federal government trying to get involved.

I hope they don’t want to be the new test case for interpretations of what is permitted for DEI.

We can’t be Harvard here. They just spent a bunch of money on the lawsuit that went to the Supreme Court that, tbh, for all the good intentions we don’t stand a snow balls chance in you know where of winning. That’s our taxpayer dollars that could be better spent on things like … providing additional resources to Kennedy students.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:They should just have the Tilden MS kids matriculate to Woodward and add some kids from Einstein and Wheaton to fill the seats. Leave everything else alone.

Agree! That’s what I thought they were going to do all along. I mean, what demographics were these maps based off of to begin with? MoCo is still suffering the consequences of the second Trump administration. Uprooting everyone would be a moot point if half the county moves out of state to find new jobs.

Agree with all of this. They should open this new school with the least amount of disruptions possible, especially considering how so many kids were impacted by COVID. Let’s give the majority of kids stability in their lives.

But if the status quo is suboptimal, we shouldn’t stick with it just because change will cause disruption for a couple of years. Leaders should look beyond only the short term.

Suboptimal for whom? One of the difficulties I had when reviewing the options is that I truly am only truly familiar with the schools in my cluster. The current situation is actually optimal for the schools in my cluster. Every option is less favorable than what we currently have.

With all the new building in Rockville and north Bethesda wj and Woodward will be full soon enough again and back at over capacity. Especially if they put more apartments in.

Yes I think the same will be true for RM and Crown. Those four schools should be left with excess capacity for future growth. Feel like the growth is least likely to happen in Whitman, Churchill and maybe Poolesville districts due to lack of new developments.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What will happen to property values of those in WJ rezoned to Woodward?

I think these are largely baked in at this point. Everyone who has bought in the last ten years has known that WJ was overcrowded, Woodward was opening to relieve that overcrowding, that the two schools are very close to each other, and anything in the general area would be fair game to go to the new school instead of the old overcrowded one. And if you bought more than ten years ago I’m not listening to your complaints about property values.
- agent

I don’t think that’s right. You’d have to be paying a ton of attention to things to know about that anywhere near 10 years ago. Most people know the zoned school and not a ton more.

Plus, even people aware of Woodward wouldn’t know what being in Woodward would mean, and we still don’t. If Woodward is districted in a way to make it a “good school,” there probably won’t be a big impact. But if the ultimate zoning makes it a meaningful “worse” school than current WJ, it will definitely impact property values.

Option 3 would be devasting for those in the Farmland district. Who would buy a house there knowing that your kid is going to be bused across the county to a school with just 13% white students and close to 50% FARMs.

Especially since they said time and time again that they would not bus kids across county for diversity purposes. This is exactly that. We have plenty of diversity in Farmland already - FARMS and ESOL. Lots of MC people, single moms in apartments and rentals. They will struggle with the long distance to Kennedy. When they could simply walk to Woodward. Never more disappointed in MCPS.

I don’t think the boundary people are local or get it. It makes no sense.

Either Option 3 is a poison pill for any effort to address segregation, or these 4 options are just a complete waste of time.

Or, with all due respect, you are in denial about MCPS and the Board and their intentions. There was a time when this was exactly what they wanted. We’ll see what the current board says/does.

The board needs to read the room about DEI. There is a lot of appetite for DEI-based lawsuits right now and I can imagine the federal government trying to get involved.

I hope they don’t want to be the new test case for interpretations of what is permitted for DEI.

We can’t be Harvard here. They just spent a bunch of money on the lawsuit that went to the Supreme Court that, tbh, for all the good intentions we don’t stand a snow balls chance in you know where of winning. That’s our taxpayer dollars that could be better spent on things like … providing additional resources to Kennedy students.

I hope by now they’ll be smart enough to realize that. But who knows, some extreme BOE people may still push for extreme options

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What will happen to property values of those in WJ rezoned to Woodward?

I think these are largely baked in at this point. Everyone who has bought in the last ten years has known that WJ was overcrowded, Woodward was opening to relieve that overcrowding, that the two schools are very close to each other, and anything in the general area would be fair game to go to the new school instead of the old overcrowded one. And if you bought more than ten years ago I’m not listening to your complaints about property values.
- agent

I don’t think that’s right. You’d have to be paying a ton of attention to things to know about that anywhere near 10 years ago. Most people know the zoned school and not a ton more.

Plus, even people aware of Woodward wouldn’t know what being in Woodward would mean, and we still don’t. If Woodward is districted in a way to make it a “good school,” there probably won’t be a big impact. But if the ultimate zoning makes it a meaningful “worse” school than current WJ, it will definitely impact property values.

Option 3 would be devasting for those in the Farmland district. Who would buy a house there knowing that your kid is going to be bused across the county to a school with just 13% white students and close to 50% FARMs.

Especially since they said time and time again that they would not bus kids across county for diversity purposes. This is exactly that. We have plenty of diversity in Farmland already - FARMS and ESOL. Lots of MC people, single moms in apartments and rentals. They will struggle with the long distance to Kennedy. When they could simply walk to Woodward. Never more disappointed in MCPS.

I don’t think the boundary people are local or get it. It makes no sense.

Either Option 3 is a poison pill for any effort to address segregation, or these 4 options are just a complete waste of time.

Or, with all due respect, you are in denial about MCPS and the Board and their intentions. There was a time when this was exactly what they wanted. We’ll see what the current board says/does.

The board needs to read the room about DEI. There is a lot of appetite for DEI-based lawsuits right now and I can imagine the federal government trying to get involved.

I hope they don’t want to be the new test case for interpretations of what is permitted for DEI.

We can’t be Harvard here. They just spent a bunch of money on the lawsuit that went to the Supreme Court that, tbh, for all the good intentions we don’t stand a snow balls chance in you know where of winning. That’s our taxpayer dollars that could be better spent on things like … providing additional resources to Kennedy students.

I hope by now they’ll be smart enough to realize that. But who knows, some extreme BOE people may still push for extreme options

I really hope so too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What will happen to property values of those in WJ rezoned to Woodward?

I think these are largely baked in at this point. Everyone who has bought in the last ten years has known that WJ was overcrowded, Woodward was opening to relieve that overcrowding, that the two schools are very close to each other, and anything in the general area would be fair game to go to the new school instead of the old overcrowded one. And if you bought more than ten years ago I’m not listening to your complaints about property values.
- agent

I don’t think that’s right. You’d have to be paying a ton of attention to things to know about that anywhere near 10 years ago. Most people know the zoned school and not a ton more.

Plus, even people aware of Woodward wouldn’t know what being in Woodward would mean, and we still don’t. If Woodward is districted in a way to make it a “good school,” there probably won’t be a big impact. But if the ultimate zoning makes it a meaningful “worse” school than current WJ, it will definitely impact property values.

Option 3 would be devasting for those in the Farmland district. Who would buy a house there knowing that your kid is going to be bused across the county to a school with just 13% white students and close to 50% FARMs.

Especially since they said time and time again that they would not bus kids across county for diversity purposes. This is exactly that. We have plenty of diversity in Farmland already - FARMS and ESOL. Lots of MC people, single moms in apartments and rentals. They will struggle with the long distance to Kennedy. When they could simply walk to Woodward. Never more disappointed in MCPS.

I don’t think the boundary people are local or get it. It makes no sense.

Either Option 3 is a poison pill for any effort to address segregation, or these 4 options are just a complete waste of time.

Or, with all due respect, you are in denial about MCPS and the Board and their intentions. There was a time when this was exactly what they wanted. We’ll see what the current board says/does.

The board needs to read the room about DEI. There is a lot of appetite for DEI-based lawsuits right now and I can imagine the federal government trying to get involved.

I hope they don’t want to be the new test case for interpretations of what is permitted for DEI.

We can’t be Harvard here. They just spent a bunch of money on the lawsuit that went to the Supreme Court that, tbh, for all the good intentions we don’t stand a snow balls chance in you know where of winning. That’s our taxpayer dollars that could be better spent on things like … providing additional resources to Kennedy students.

I was just coming to post this. Option 3 - or any similar plan that blatantly promotes diversity over geography - will result in not only private lawsuits but also an immediate loss of federal funding from ED. Which would be a disaster.

[Anonymous]

Where is the survey? I can’t easily find it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Also it is ridiculous that they clearly tried to have one option prioritizing each factor (#1 stability, #2 utilization, #3 diversity, #4 geography), rather than trying to find the four best ways to balance all 4. It's a really flawed way to approach this.

How can option 4 prioritize geography, and still bus the town of Kensington to WJ?

I mapped directions from my house in S Kensington and WJ would be a much shorter commute than BCC which is our current HS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What will happen to property values of those in WJ rezoned to Woodward?

I think these are largely baked in at this point. Everyone who has bought in the last ten years has known that WJ was overcrowded, Woodward was opening to relieve that overcrowding, that the two schools are very close to each other, and anything in the general area would be fair game to go to the new school instead of the old overcrowded one. And if you bought more than ten years ago I’m not listening to your complaints about property values.
- agent

I don’t think that’s right. You’d have to be paying a ton of attention to things to know about that anywhere near 10 years ago. Most people know the zoned school and not a ton more.

Plus, even people aware of Woodward wouldn’t know what being in Woodward would mean, and we still don’t. If Woodward is districted in a way to make it a “good school,” there probably won’t be a big impact. But if the ultimate zoning makes it a meaningful “worse” school than current WJ, it will definitely impact property values.

Option 3 would be devasting for those in the Farmland district. Who would buy a house there knowing that your kid is going to be bused across the county to a school with just 13% white students and close to 50% FARMs.

Especially since they said time and time again that they would not bus kids across county for diversity purposes. This is exactly that. We have plenty of diversity in Farmland already - FARMS and ESOL. Lots of MC people, single moms in apartments and rentals. They will struggle with the long distance to Kennedy. When they could simply walk to Woodward. Never more disappointed in MCPS.

I don’t think the boundary people are local or get it. It makes no sense.

Either Option 3 is a poison pill for any effort to address segregation, or these 4 options are just a complete waste of time.

Or, with all due respect, you are in denial about MCPS and the Board and their intentions. There was a time when this was exactly what they wanted. We’ll see what the current board says/does.

The board needs to read the room about DEI. There is a lot of appetite for DEI-based lawsuits right now and I can imagine the federal government trying to get involved.

I hope they don’t want to be the new test case for interpretations of what is permitted for DEI.

We can’t be Harvard here. They just spent a bunch of money on the lawsuit that went to the Supreme Court that, tbh, for all the good intentions we don’t stand a snow balls chance in you know where of winning. That’s our taxpayer dollars that could be better spent on things like … providing additional resources to Kennedy students.

I hope by now they’ll be smart enough to realize that. But who knows, some extreme BOE people may still push for extreme options

Who knows what we will see for Crown, but I think we can expect something similar to option 3.

[Anonymous]

I wish you could compare the data for the four different options for each school in one place, rather than the data for one option at a time for all schools. Anyone see a way to do this?

So for example, I'd like to look at the data in the MS effects table for one middle school for each option, without having to have four spreadsheets open at once.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What will happen to property values of those in WJ rezoned to Woodward?

I think these are largely baked in at this point. Everyone who has bought in the last ten years has known that WJ was overcrowded, Woodward was opening to relieve that overcrowding, that the two schools are very close to each other, and anything in the general area would be fair game to go to the new school instead of the old overcrowded one. And if you bought more than ten years ago I’m not listening to your complaints about property values.
- agent

I don’t think that’s right. You’d have to be paying a ton of attention to things to know about that anywhere near 10 years ago. Most people know the zoned school and not a ton more.

Plus, even people aware of Woodward wouldn’t know what being in Woodward would mean, and we still don’t. If Woodward is districted in a way to make it a “good school,” there probably won’t be a big impact. But if the ultimate zoning makes it a meaningful “worse” school than current WJ, it will definitely impact property values.

Option 3 would be devasting for those in the Farmland district. Who would buy a house there knowing that your kid is going to be bused across the county to a school with just 13% white students and close to 50% FARMs.

Especially since they said time and time again that they would not bus kids across county for diversity purposes. This is exactly that. We have plenty of diversity in Farmland already - FARMS and ESOL. Lots of MC people, single moms in apartments and rentals. They will struggle with the long distance to Kennedy. When they could simply walk to Woodward. Never more disappointed in MCPS.

I don’t think the boundary people are local or get it. It makes no sense.

Either Option 3 is a poison pill for any effort to address segregation, or these 4 options are just a complete waste of time.

Or, with all due respect, you are in denial about MCPS and the Board and their intentions. There was a time when this was exactly what they wanted. We’ll see what the current board says/does.

The board needs to read the room about DEI. There is a lot of appetite for DEI-based lawsuits right now and I can imagine the federal government trying to get involved.

I hope they don’t want to be the new test case for interpretations of what is permitted for DEI.

We can’t be Harvard here. They just spent a bunch of money on the lawsuit that went to the Supreme Court that, tbh, for all the good intentions we don’t stand a snow balls chance in you know where of winning. That’s our taxpayer dollars that could be better spent on things like … providing additional resources to Kennedy students.

As long as they don't explicitly use race as a tie-breaker or actively seek segregation, both SCOTUS precedent and other case law gives wide latitude to school districts to draw their own boundaries.

In fact, when the upcounty boundary folks tried to sue, they were forced to do so on the basis of an improper meeting.

Basically, I don't think the legal avenues would work out here, assuming MCPS does its due diligence in terms of public consultation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Where is the survey? I can’t easily find it.

https://forms.gle/aHrWRfm2UingZtft8

It's at the bottom of the Woodward options page: https://sites.google.com/mcpsmd.net/boundarystudyoptions/home/woodward-initial-options?authuser=0