Biglaw lateral associates

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP sorry but getting laterals like that means your division is viewed as unappealing/dead end/toxic etc. Everyone in biglaw talks so if you are getting the lateral dregs it's because prior associates have pegged you or your division as something to avoid.

That's not the issue, no. No associate outside our firm knows anything about our group. Any lateral jumping firms in year 1 or 2 is too junior to have specialized in our area yet, and won't know anything about our niche or practice group. So i can say with confidence that the problem isn't our external reputation. I also have other data that supports this.

Based on the above feedback, I am thinking it is a problem with the quality of laterals combined with my lack of time to train them. Better quality laterals could excel without the super hands on training (as shown by our homegrown associates excelling). Middling laterals could probably do decently well with a lot of training, but i'm not giving them enough. Bad laterals will obviously languish regardless. In this economy, the applicants across the board are shocking. I'm going to try and invest more time in my good associates, though it's a real challenge given how busy I am.

[Anonymous]

I am familiar with a few similar situations which occurred during the recent M&A boom in a niche practice area--cross-border/international tax matters in a cutting-edge practice. New hires were not given much direction and no training whatsoever even though the firm has a stellar reputation worldwide for training associates. The very diligent, conscientious associates only direction was to "figure it out". Had to rely on other more senior associates for any guidance, but even that was scarce due to the high workload and due to the cutting-edge nature of the practice.

A difference, however, is that OP has experienced the same difficulties even when business was not booming.

Helpful to think of "training" as "directing". With proper direction, an intelligent, conscientious associate should yield the results that you want.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP sorry but getting laterals like that means your division is viewed as unappealing/dead end/toxic etc. Everyone in biglaw talks so if you are getting the lateral dregs it's because prior associates have pegged you or your division as something to avoid.

That's not the issue, no. No associate outside our firm knows anything about our group. Any lateral jumping firms in year 1 or 2 is too junior to have specialized in our area yet, and won't know anything about our niche or practice group. So i can say with confidence that the problem isn't our external reputation. I also have other data that supports this.

Based on the above feedback, I am thinking it is a problem with the quality of laterals combined with my lack of time to train them. Better quality laterals could excel without the super hands on training (as shown by our homegrown associates excelling). Middling laterals could probably do decently well with a lot of training, but i'm not giving them enough. Bad laterals will obviously languish regardless. In this economy, the applicants across the board are shocking. I'm going to try and invest more time in my good associates, though it's a real challenge given how busy I am.

Maybe take on less work so you can focus on providing quality training to your associates so your practice group can consistently produce quality work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wow, I should go back to being an associate. I have 20 years of in house experience and make less than a first year associate (and do excellent work).

But surely starting salaries in Biglaw is not news to you, and more importantly you know full well why they make more than you do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow, I should go back to being an associate. I have 20 years of in house experience and make less than a first year associate (and do excellent work).

But surely starting salaries in Biglaw is not news to you, and more importantly you know full well why they make more than you do.

Yeah, I want to know what rock PP has been living under. There is not a single profession with more pay transparency than big law associates.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You need to communicate with the associates or have someone else do it and say they need to be on the office more and have more billable hours. If they aren’t in the office more during the on office days what do you think they are doing when they are WFH. If they can’t meet targets or billable don’t let them WFH.

I don’t work in law (my husband was an associate at Cravath 20 years ago but isn’t in big law anymore) but in most other fields if people aren’t getting what needs to get done the WFH benefit gets stopped. Making $300k and working only 10-6 is ridiculous for an associate. My husband worked night and day and weekends when he was an associate at Cravath.

Sigh. Another non lawyer lawyer's wife weighing in acting as if she knows what she is talking about

I'm sure the associate logs in and works more at home that evening

[Anonymous]

OP, I am going to focus on this part of your statement:

"Our current associate can handle those types of tasks, but this week dropped the ball majorly on two big things: the first, a client deadline that had been very clearly conveyed, months and months ago, and the second, a substantive research and writing assignment that was just not well done."

Do you know what high schools these laterals went to? Because I have seen modern public suburban high schools because my kids went thru them - supposedly good ones - and they are a) not teaching kids how to write and b) teaching kids it's fine to miss deadlines.

Frankly, I would try to hire people who went to schools like Sidwell and NCS and then to top thirty SLACs or maybe HYP and majored in something writing intensive like English or History.

Public schools kids are not learning how to write and they are not learning how to meet deadlines and work hard. We sent our third kid to private after the mistake of sending the first two to MCPS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow, I should go back to being an associate. I have 20 years of in house experience and make less than a first year associate (and do excellent work).

But surely starting salaries in Biglaw is not news to you, and more importantly you know full well why they make more than you do.

Yeah, I want to know what rock PP has been living under. There is not a single profession with more pay transparency than big law associates.

I have often thought that at least 1/2 the people posting on DCUM threads about the legal profession are not lawyers. People who, for whatever weird reason, feel the need to play one on DCUM.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, I am going to focus on this part of your statement:

"Our current associate can handle those types of tasks, but this week dropped the ball majorly on two big things: the first, a client deadline that had been very clearly conveyed, months and months ago, and the second, a substantive research and writing assignment that was just not well done."

Do you know what high schools these laterals went to? Because I have seen modern public suburban high schools because my kids went thru them - supposedly good ones - and they are a) not teaching kids how to write and b) teaching kids it's fine to miss deadlines.

Frankly, I would try to hire people who went to schools like Sidwell and NCS and then to top thirty SLACs or maybe HYP and majored in something writing intensive like English or History.

Public schools kids are not learning how to write and they are not learning how to meet deadlines and work hard. We sent our third kid to private after the mistake of sending the first two to MCPS.

OP here, and interestingly, the bold describes the associate exactly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, I am going to focus on this part of your statement:

"Our current associate can handle those types of tasks, but this week dropped the ball majorly on two big things: the first, a client deadline that had been very clearly conveyed, months and months ago, and the second, a substantive research and writing assignment that was just not well done."

Do you know what high schools these laterals went to? Because I have seen modern public suburban high schools because my kids went thru them - supposedly good ones - and they are a) not teaching kids how to write and b) teaching kids it's fine to miss deadlines.

Frankly, I would try to hire people who went to schools like Sidwell and NCS and then to top thirty SLACs or maybe HYP and majored in something writing intensive like English or History.

Public schools kids are not learning how to write and they are not learning how to meet deadlines and work hard. We sent our third kid to private after the mistake of sending the first two to MCPS.

FFS. You realize that there are 7 years of education between high school and law school graduation?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow, I should go back to being an associate. I have 20 years of in house experience and make less than a first year associate (and do excellent work).

But surely starting salaries in Biglaw is not news to you, and more importantly you know full well why they make more than you do.

Yeah, I want to know what rock PP has been living under. There is not a single profession with more pay transparency than big law associates.

I have often thought that at least 1/2 the people posting on DCUM threads about the legal profession are not lawyers. People who, for whatever weird reason, feel the need to play one on DCUM.

Totally agree, i think there are probably 6 partners (me included) who post pretty consistently over the years - a couple men and several women. A bunch of associates who show up when they are in crisis mode over the years (being pushed out, thinking about leaving, want to make partner, etc). And then a bunch of non-big law people.

Mostly sah wives who have biglaw husbands, or women who were in biglaw for 3 years, 10+ years ago. In the second bucket, i get that people have extremely good reasons for leaving biglaw, but leaving at year 3 typically means you didn't exactly crack the code for success in big law. So none of these opinions are very relevant, even though i know the second bucket in particular get sensitive if you suggest they don't have much to add.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, I am going to focus on this part of your statement:

"Our current associate can handle those types of tasks, but this week dropped the ball majorly on two big things: the first, a client deadline that had been very clearly conveyed, months and months ago, and the second, a substantive research and writing assignment that was just not well done."

Do you know what high schools these laterals went to? Because I have seen modern public suburban high schools because my kids went thru them - supposedly good ones - and they are a) not teaching kids how to write and b) teaching kids it's fine to miss deadlines.

Frankly, I would try to hire people who went to schools like Sidwell and NCS and then to top thirty SLACs or maybe HYP and majored in something writing intensive like English or History.

Public schools kids are not learning how to write and they are not learning how to meet deadlines and work hard. We sent our third kid to private after the mistake of sending the first two to MCPS.

It's a well known feature of biglaw that HYP are the WORST attorneys. The best are top of their class in big state schools, and top 1/3 of their class in the "rest of the best" law schools (GW, Georgetown, NYU, Vandy, etc). The HYP kids are so used to theoretical work rather than "real" work, no grading in law school, and are often such hyper nerds or on the spectrum that they lack the common sense that's a necessary component of a client facing service profession.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I am going to focus on this part of your statement:

"Our current associate can handle those types of tasks, but this week dropped the ball majorly on two big things: the first, a client deadline that had been very clearly conveyed, months and months ago, and the second, a substantive research and writing assignment that was just not well done."

Do you know what high schools these laterals went to? Because I have seen modern public suburban high schools because my kids went thru them - supposedly good ones - and they are a) not teaching kids how to write and b) teaching kids it's fine to miss deadlines.

Frankly, I would try to hire people who went to schools like Sidwell and NCS and then to top thirty SLACs or maybe HYP and majored in something writing intensive like English or History.

Public schools kids are not learning how to write and they are not learning how to meet deadlines and work hard. We sent our third kid to private after the mistake of sending the first two to MCPS.

It's a well known feature of biglaw that HYP are the WORST attorneys. The best are top of their class in big state schools, and top 1/3 of their class in the "rest of the best" law schools (GW, Georgetown, NYU, Vandy, etc). The HYP kids are so used to theoretical work rather than "real" work, no grading in law school, and are often such hyper nerds or on the spectrum that they lack the common sense that's a necessary component of a client facing service profession.

No, this is not true. I’m guessing you’re not in big law or even a lawyer since you have a bizarre grouping of ‘rest of the best law schools’. No one in the know would ever lump NYU in with GW or Vanderbilt.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I am going to focus on this part of your statement:

"Our current associate can handle those types of tasks, but this week dropped the ball majorly on two big things: the first, a client deadline that had been very clearly conveyed, months and months ago, and the second, a substantive research and writing assignment that was just not well done."

Do you know what high schools these laterals went to? Because I have seen modern public suburban high schools because my kids went thru them - supposedly good ones - and they are a) not teaching kids how to write and b) teaching kids it's fine to miss deadlines.

Frankly, I would try to hire people who went to schools like Sidwell and NCS and then to top thirty SLACs or maybe HYP and majored in something writing intensive like English or History.

Public schools kids are not learning how to write and they are not learning how to meet deadlines and work hard. We sent our third kid to private after the mistake of sending the first two to MCPS.

It's a well known feature of biglaw that HYP are the WORST attorneys. The best are top of their class in big state schools, and top 1/3 of their class in the "rest of the best" law schools (GW, Georgetown, NYU, Vandy, etc). The HYP kids are so used to theoretical work rather than "real" work, no grading in law school, and are often such hyper nerds or on the spectrum that they lack the common sense that's a necessary component of a client facing service profession.

No, this is not true. I’m guessing you’re not in big law or even a lawyer since you have a bizarre grouping of ‘rest of the best law schools’. No one in the know would ever lump NYU in with GW or Vanderbilt.

Huh? no of course I'm in big law. For more than 20 years. Of course NYC and GW and Vandy are all in the same bucket of performance. They are very hard to get into schools, but not 'ivy hard'. The difference between getting into one versus the other could just be getting a couple quesions wrong on the lsat or taking a harder major in undergrad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow, I should go back to being an associate. I have 20 years of in house experience and make less than a first year associate (and do excellent work).

But surely starting salaries in Biglaw is not news to you, and more importantly you know full well why they make more than you do.

Yeah, I want to know what rock PP has been living under. There is not a single profession with more pay transparency than big law associates.

I have often thought that at least 1/2 the people posting on DCUM threads about the legal profession are not lawyers. People who, for whatever weird reason, feel the need to play one on DCUM.

Totally agree, i think there are probably 6 partners (me included) who post pretty consistently over the years - a couple men and several women. A bunch of associates who show up when they are in crisis mode over the years (being pushed out, thinking about leaving, want to make partner, etc). And then a bunch of non-big law people.

Mostly sah wives who have biglaw husbands, or women who were in biglaw for 3 years, 10+ years ago. In the second bucket, i get that people have extremely good reasons for leaving biglaw, but leaving at year 3 typically means you didn't exactly crack the code for success in big law. So none of these opinions are very relevant, even though i know the second bucket in particular get sensitive if you suggest they don't have much to add.

Well, they do have a lot more to add than the sahm wives. Who, I believe, post on these threads quite a bit, pretending to be lawyers themselves.