Where do you draw the line (anti-gay bakers)?

[Anonymous]

First off I want to make clear that this is a different case than the bakers in Colorado who didn't want to bake for a gay wedding. This is about Northern Irish bakers not wanting to frost a pro-gay-rights message on a cake. Articles here:

'Gay cake' row in Northern Ireland: Q&A
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-32065233

Patrick Stewart backs bakery after 'gay cake' court battle
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/patrick-stewart-backs-bakery-after-gay-cake-court-battle-10296738.html

I hesitate to start this thread and call crazies out of the woodwork, but I'm curious what others think, especially other supporters of LGBT rights (like myself). I tend to agree with Patrick Stewart (ha!) on this -- I think bakers shouldn't be allowed to refuse service to people they don't like or for events they don't like, but they should be allowed to decline to write certain messages. Is that splitting hairs?

I'm thinking, if I were a baker and some group that I found ethically awful wanted a cake, I would be ok with a legal requirement that I bake them a cake, but I'm not ok with a legal requirement that I frost a specific message on the cake. (The example I always come up with is neo-Nazis wanting a cake -- ok -- with a frosting swastika -- no.)

And since it's bizarre how this comes up so much with bakers -- What about sign makers? Is a conservative Christian sign maker required to print up banners for a gay pride march? Is a liberal sign maker required to print up banners for Westboro Baptist Church?

And I strongly believe that pharmacists should be required to fill all prescriptions regardless of their own beliefs.

I wrestle with integrating all of the above and with the moral equivalence here, because as much as I support equal rights, non discrimination, etc., I don't want to be legally required to do things that *I* would find morally wrong (like printing up anti-gay banners or decorating a swastika cake). Not asking hypothetically, genuinely wondering how others sort it out in their heads and make that distinction!

[Anonymous]

I think businesses should be allowed to run their business as they see fit.

I think public opinion will then decide if they want to spend their money on said business or not.

Pretty simple.

[Anonymous]

I think that people running businesses unrelated to religion should remember that there is nothing inherently religious about baking a cake or creating a sign or filling a prescription. If their religious beliefs so strong that they are compromised by providing professional services that are in conflict with those beliefs, perhaps the business owner should consider a religiously-oriented business of some kind.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think businesses should be allowed to run their business as they see fit.

I think public opinion will then decide if they want to spend their money on said business or not.

Pretty simple.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think businesses should be allowed to run their business as they see fit.

I think public opinion will then decide if they want to spend their money on said business or not.

Pretty simple.

OP here again. So, say there's a business that refuses to do business with people of a different race. Say I'm the same race as the business owners so I have no idea about this, though I'd boycott if I did. Is it the responsibility of the people who get discriminated against to make a public stink so that everyone knows and can make an informed decision? How do you even go about making such a stink? You can't put a sign on the door: "this place doesn't serve ____ race." I like your point in theory but how does it work in practice?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think businesses should be allowed to run their business as they see fit.

I think public opinion will then decide if they want to spend their money on said business or not.

Pretty simple.

OP here again. So, say there's a business that refuses to do business with people of a different race. Say I'm the same race as the business owners so I have no idea about this, though I'd boycott if I did. Is it the responsibility of the people who get discriminated against to make a public stink so that everyone knows and can make an informed decision? How do you even go about making such a stink? You can't put a sign on the door: "this place doesn't serve ____ race." I like your point in theory but how does it work in practice?

Yes. You alert the media, the BBB and your local chamber of commerce.

[Anonymous]

For me, the line is drawn at writing a message or making an overt statement. I don't think you can refuse to sell a "stock" item to someone because they're gay. Just sell them whatever wedding cake they want and two groom cake toppers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think businesses should be allowed to run their business as they see fit.

I think public opinion will then decide if they want to spend their money on said business or not.

Pretty simple.

OP yet again -- and do you still agree with that plan if the situation will not be affected by public opinion? Say I'm black and living in a small, isolated town. None of the businesses will do business with me because of my race. No one else in town cares enough to boycott said businesses, and I have no alternatives in the area.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think businesses should be allowed to run their business as they see fit.

I think public opinion will then decide if they want to spend their money on said business or not.

Pretty simple.

OP here again. So, say there's a business that refuses to do business with people of a different race. Say I'm the same race as the business owners so I have no idea about this, though I'd boycott if I did. Is it the responsibility of the people who get discriminated against to make a public stink so that everyone knows and can make an informed decision? How do you even go about making such a stink? You can't put a sign on the door: "this place doesn't serve ____ race." I like your point in theory but how does it work in practice?

Yes. You alert the media, the BBB and your local chamber of commerce.

Yes, because that worked so well in 1955.

[Anonymous]

I draw the line at hate messages or offensive speech (if the gay cake wanted to say "two dicks" or something like that). Two grooms on the top of a wedding cake? Yeah they need to bake that. A gay pride rainbow? They need to bake that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think businesses should be allowed to run their business as they see fit.

I think public opinion will then decide if they want to spend their money on said business or not.

Pretty simple.

OP here again. So, say there's a business that refuses to do business with people of a different race. Say I'm the same race as the business owners so I have no idea about this, though I'd boycott if I did. Is it the responsibility of the people who get discriminated against to make a public stink so that everyone knows and can make an informed decision? How do you even go about making such a stink? You can't put a sign on the door: "this place doesn't serve ____ race." I like your point in theory but how does it work in practice?

Yes. You alert the media, the BBB and your local chamber of commerce.

Yes, because that worked so well in 1955.

It is 2015

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I draw the line at hate messages or offensive speech (if the gay cake wanted to say "two dicks" or something like that). Two grooms on the top of a wedding cake? Yeah they need to bake that. A gay pride rainbow? They need to bake that.

Preferencing this that I support LGBT completely. I think it is silly that we have to "support" them because they are just citizens living their lives.

The business doesn't need to do any of that. Also there are other businesses that would be happy to. Spend your money there.

[Anonymous]

I think that for-profit businesses that serve the public should serve the public, and not just the parts of service and the parts of the public that they want.

If you don't want accept special-order messages you disapprove of for a cake that you sell, then don't accept any special-order messages. The customer has to choose from the following list:

Congratulations!
Happy birthday!
Happy anniversary!

You don't get to accept some special-order messages (the ones you approve of) and reject others (the ones you don't).

[Anonymous]

I think a lot of family run small businesses like bakeries are often upfront with their beliefs. You go to their websites and they might have scripture passages on them or they might be open with their faith inside their businesses.

I think the kind of people and grouos who select these tiny, often less than ten people shops that are often all family run and are open about their fairh are specifically selecting them with the hopes that they will be refused. Do we really believe that the only baker the gay pride festival organizers can find to make their balloon arrangements is the one southern baptist sole proprietor florist in town? THAT person is their must have service provider?

If you were a baker and the local Catholic church wanted you to make a giant Pro life cake with anti abortion slogans for their right to life march on the anniversary of R v Wade, should you as a small business owner or tiny shop be compelled to do so, or risk your license, your business or lose your home due to the fines? Or should you be able to, as an individual sole proprietor or tiny family run business be able to participate or not participate in servicing whatever events your moral and religious belief system tells you to?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I draw the line at hate messages or offensive speech (if the gay cake wanted to say "two dicks" or something like that). Two grooms on the top of a wedding cake? Yeah they need to bake that. A gay pride rainbow? They need to bake that.

Preferencing this that I support LGBT completely. I think it is silly that we have to "support" them because they are just citizens living their lives.

The business doesn't need to do any of that. Also there are other businesses that would be happy to. Spend your money there.

But how are gays supposed to find the bakers that will bake a cake with two grooms on it? I'm straight and had a hard time finding a cake baker with availability on my date, reasonable price and good taste (I think I went to 10+ places).