WDYD -- the struggle with math?

[Anonymous]

So why would my 4th grader on full medication support for ADHD struggle with math? She started out strong, easily working the abbacus and large numbers / regrouping when she was still in PreK, but since starting school, each year was worse than the one before. We're both engineers, and provide her with plenty support at home. School has been absent from the math equation until this year, because she's been the proverbial "forgotten child'. Starting so strong, she has had plenty time to get bored and fall behind.

This established pattern has been one of the reasons we decided on private school this year -- the small class, the additional math specialist in the classroom every day. Yet frankly, this has really been her worst year. I just don;t get it. None of it is rocket science, and she has plenty repetition and support. But at random times, she becomes completely disoriented and gives up. Then we all (teachers, extended care teacher, parents) swoop in to help her break things down. At that point, all is lost -- she has to re-learn everything from scratch. And later on, it happens again. Her teacher reports that she only learns new concepts through 1:1 sessions, rather than from the classroom explanations -- something we suspected before. Why?

How do we turn this around?

Her test scores placed her at the upper limit of the high average IQ, and her strenghts are fluid reasoning and memory (both long and short term). This would reasonably mean a certain ease in basic math... but that's not what I see... Instead she's focused on reading and writing, social studies (as long as it's her project -- again, little retained from the classroom teacher) and more recently, science. I realize that not everyone becomes a math wiz, but we're talking 4th grade here, not a career in math...

Help?!

[Anonymous]

My kid has memory processing issues and dyscalculia, and every time DC does a math assignment it's like starting from scratch. I need to walk through and review EVERYTHING.

I would focus on getting math manipulatives and use visuals to underscore concepts. Also, typical "math" in most public and even private schools focus on rote memory not numeracy concepts.

Consider getting a tutor and a new lease on patience.

[Anonymous]

I don't know if this helps you at all, but I struggled with Math all the way through Middle school and right into 10th grade when suddenly it was Geometry. Because it was highly visual, something clicked in my head, Geometry was suddenly a breeze and then when I had Algebra 2 the next year, my confidence and understanding had grown and it wasn't as challenging, I had finally "got it".

[Anonymous]

I am not sure I understand this. If she was that advanced in preK, what has happened since then? What kind of math gives her problems?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am not sure I understand this. If she was that advanced in preK, what has happened since then? What kind of math gives her problems?

Abacus is more numeracy issues than rote memory. Nothing happen to the kid just the way she was taught.

[Anonymous]

OP here -- thank you all for the feedback. I keep thinking there may be something going on on the ability side, based on the severity of her reaction, but then, everytime I try to dig in more, it still feels like a behavior issue.

I will try to work out an agreement with her teachers whereby she gets absolutely no additional instruction after the class is over, unless she asks specific questions as she tries to clarify details. But then, I'll need to line up some resources that she can use to fill those gaps by herself. Kahn Academy, or better.

Maybe if she takes this on by herself, she will be less dependent on "rescue" from all her teachers. Open to ideas and suggestions...

[Anonymous]

What grade will she get?

Will she get a "C" or "D", or is she failing?

Even kids with special needs may lack motivation, and need to take their lumps. Tell her if she doesn't pass math she will have to repeat. If she's passing math, well, it might be a hard road - but it is what it is.

[Anonymous]

I think it sounds like she now has a math anxiety. I'm not sure your suggested solution is a good one. Have you met with her teachers to talk it through? It's probably best to come up with a plan together with them.

I'm guessing she needs a confidence boost in the subject, rather than seeing people around her worry about it. Anyway, I'm sure her teachers will be able to make some suggestions.

(Ex-math teacher here)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here -- thank you all for the feedback. I keep thinking there may be something going on on the ability side, based on the severity of her reaction, but then, everytime I try to dig in more, it still feels like a behavior issue.

I will try to work out an agreement with her teachers whereby she gets absolutely no additional instruction after the class is over, unless she asks specific questions as she tries to clarify details. But then, I'll need to line up some resources that she can use to fill those gaps by herself. Kahn Academy, or better.

Maybe if she takes this on by herself, she will be less dependent on "rescue" from all her teachers. Open to ideas and suggestions...

OP, teaching a kid isn't "rescuing" them. If she needs help, why not let her get help. Why does a 4th grader need to fill gaps by herself? Also, if you don't understand something, it's not always as though you can ask a specific question. Helping a kid attain a skill isn't helicoptering. You're enabling her to become independent. I don't understand where your coming from at all.

[Anonymous]

OP sounds like you need to get over the fact that just because you and DH are engineers doesn't mean you DD will be strong in math. Obviously its not her strong subject or she feels she will never please mommy and daddy because they have natural math brains. That turns into math-phobia or anxiety.

So she needs extra help. Be grateful that's her only area of challenge.

[Anonymous]

My daughter is in second grade and we put her in private school to get some extra focus on basic math and hopes that she wouldn't develop confidence issues in math. She has difficulty with very basic subtraction and addition - we tried rote memory, we tried computer tutoring, we tried kumon and we tried intensive tutoring with a specialist and manipulatives.

She is barely doing okay and managing - and we are happy with that! But, it is a struggle, I have to have serious patience or just not sit down with her to do her homework and get someone else or ask the teachers because despite wanting to be better at this, I get frustrated because it is very alien to me and I am not an engineer or math wiz in any way.

Sometimes we ask her something she answered just 10 minutes before and she looks like a deer in headlights. It's part math anxiety, part developmental and part who knows what - we are hoping for the best so she can manage school without feeling incapable.

[Anonymous]

I don't know what OP meant when she thinks that her daughter's issue was behavioral. It sounds like she does not retain information well. This may be part of her ADHD or it may be some of other learning disabilities. Instead of lettering her fill her own holes, I would be tempted to start anew. Go to Singapore Math website, and take their placement tests. That will place her in her actual level. Then go from there and teach to mastery. Sometime when they have so many holes in their knowledge, they cannot just pick it up in class anymore. And we all know that teachers now a days don't do much direct instruction. For a child who is in trouble with math, studies have shown that direct instruction is the best.

[Anonymous]

Also you never really explained where your DD is struggling. Is it with math facts recall? Learning new procedures? Word problems? They all need to be tackled systematically. It seems to me that when your DD had a problem, those problems were explained to her and then she cannot apply to other problems. This suggests to me that she never got Math. She may be good at short term memory at the procedure/facts/abacus she was taught. But she did not get the number sense, math concepts, connections between different operations etc.

[Anonymous]

How is her working memory? Does she have her math facts down cold? If you say 7+6 or 14-6 does she immediately know the answer or does she have to think or use her fingers? It is hard to do well in math if you don't have instant recall math facts particularly if you don't have really strong working memory skills. If she doesn't know her math facts down cold, send her to Kumon but you have to think long term about how long it will take to get to level D. Maybe a year or so.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So why would my 4th grader on full medication support for ADHD struggle with math? She started out strong, easily working the abbacus and large numbers / regrouping when she was still in PreK, but since starting school, each year was worse than the one before. We're both engineers, and provide her with plenty support at home. School has been absent from the math equation until this year, because she's been the proverbial "forgotten child'. Starting so strong, she has had plenty time to get bored and fall behind.

This established pattern has been one of the reasons we decided on private school this year -- the small class, the additional math specialist in the classroom every day. Yet frankly, this has really been her worst year. I just don;t get it. None of it is rocket science, and she has plenty repetition and support. But at random times, she becomes completely disoriented and gives up. Then we all (teachers, extended care teacher, parents) swoop in to help her break things down. At that point, all is lost -- she has to re-learn everything from scratch. And later on, it happens again. Her teacher reports that she only learns new concepts through 1:1 sessions, rather than from the classroom explanations -- something we suspected before. Why?

How do we turn this around?

Her test scores placed her at the upper limit of the high average IQ, and her strenghts are fluid reasoning and memory (both long and short term). This would reasonably mean a certain ease in basic math... but that's not what I see... Instead she's focused on reading and writing, social studies (as long as it's her project -- again, little retained from the classroom teacher) and more recently, science. I realize that not everyone becomes a math wiz, but we're talking 4th grade here, not a career in math...

Help?!

I don't think you have enough testing to properly understand your daughter's issues. It sounds like you only have had an IQ test done. Was it the WPPSIII or the WISC? The former is given to younger kids and may not reveal specific memory and slow processing issues that often are revealed at an older age with the WISC.

In any case, IQ testing is not specific enough to understand the different kinds of learning issues that your daughter has. It sounds to me like her ADHD is impacting her ability to learn in certain areas OR she may have a "specific learning disability" comorbid with her ADHD. This is VERY common -- many kids with SLDs also have ADHD. If this is the case (dual SLD/ADHD diagnosis) then medication alone might not be enough to "fix" the problem. Your child may need an IEP with "specialized instruction" in her areas of weakness.

Additional testing should be done by a neuropsychologist and should include testing for ADHD and executive functioning issues beyond just the "checklist" diagnosis on a Connors or Vanderbilt form. Tower of London and some of the computerized attention tests like IVA should be used.

You will also want "achievement testing" in the specific areas where you are seeing trouble -- this would be using the WJ-III achievement tests in areas like math reasoning, math fluency, math calculation, etc.)

Many things can contribute to math problems despite high IQ. A certain level of rapid recall and memorization of math facts becomes necessary after about 3rd grade. Some students, due to learning disabilities or other "disorders" like ADHD, don't have this rapid naming/recall ability or it is weak, slow or variable. Another problem is memory -- math requires the memorization of formulas and procedures. Some kids have trouble with this and need to focus on specific memorization techniques that work for them (more repetition, different strategies like relying on verbal/auditory memory vs. written/visual). Another problem is executive function -- math requires the ability to organize information and apply a basic set of procedures to problems. Kids with executive function may "know" the math in the sense of understanding it but have difficulty picking out relevant information and applying relevant processes/formulas.

I should also add, that after all this testing, it may turn out that the issue is "just" ADHD. ADHD is a disorder of attention regulation, and it is often the case that kids with ADHD have a hard time focusing on stuff that is boring to them, but they can and do focus on stuff that is more interesting to them. But, as a parent, I would never "assume" that the problems you describe are due to boredom or just the ADHD, I would want to assess further.

Do you have an IEP or just a 504? What school system are you in? Have they done testing? It sounds like it is time to ask for an IEP and to have the school do more testing (or pay privately if necessary). The school has to provide testing whether you are in private or public school, if you file for an IEP, it's part of their "child find" obligation. What the public school system has to do for you after that testing is different depending on your private school.