Tea Party Suicide Bomber?

[Anonymous]

If he's Catholic? I don't even know.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:
This is a bit rich coming from the person who was bagging on commenters for poor reading comprehension upthread because they made similar arguments about your points on the Tea Partiers.

I cited to two specific points of Islamic doctrine relevant to the use of violence -- jihad and the death penalty for apostasy (i.e. conversion). That is not "generalizing based on a few violence-prone Muslims that get a disproportionate amount of media exposure", it is discussing what actual Islamic doctrine is. Perhaps I am interpreting these doctrines incorrectly, or am wrong about how those doctrines are interpreted by Muslims in places like Saudi Arabia or Indonesia -- I'm certainly not infallible and have been mistaken before -- but if you think I'm wrong about that, show proof and let's have a discussion, don't imply I'm some sort of gay-bashing Nazi.

I wasn't replying to the post in which you cited two specific points of Islamic doctrine relevant to the use of violence. Regardless, while traditional Islamic interpretations do provide for the death penalty in cases of apostasy, that interpretation has been increasingly challenged in modern times. More importantly, in practice this tradition is almost never observed, making those cases in which converts are killed the exception rather than the rule. For the most part, the rate may roughly be on order of the number of abortion providers killed by Christians.

As for Jihad, it is not one of the five pillars of Islam. While Jihad is understood in the West as referring to holy war, and the term is frequently used that way among militant Muslims, its meaning in broader Islamic practice is far different. Within Islamic practice, Jihad refers to the struggle to be a good Muslim. For better or worse, Arabic is not a very precise language and it is generally possible to interpret things almost any way you wish.

Your "gay-bashing Nazi" remark is very interesting. I pointed out that members of the Ugandan Christian clergy support killing gays. How does that make you a "gay-bashing Nazi"?

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yet the media is saying that this wasn't a terrorist incident. I'm somewhat sympathetic to some of his complaints (but not all) but regardless, he killed himself in order to make a political statement and he hoped to take some IRS employees with him.

How is this NOT terrorism?

This is exactly my point above. It won't be described as terrorism because the guy's name is "Joe" and many in the US will be sympathetic to his complaints.

It's not terrrorism. He is not part of a movement designed to change government behavior. He's a suicidal nut job. And the nutj ob was pro-Obama care, so don't try to tie him to the tea party movement.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:[

Your "gay-bashing Nazi" remark is very interesting. I pointed out that members of the Ugandan Christian clergy support killing gays. How does that make you a "gay-bashing Nazi"?

When you start your post to analogizing my comment to saying "Some of my best friends are Jews" -- which has a pretty clear implication -- I understand this is your guilt-by-association thread, but couldn't let that pass.

I think you apply quite a double standard as well, suggesting that the Tea Parties might be connected to or encourage violence due to the nature of their anti-tax and anti-government rhetoric, but you go to such pains to deny any similar effect that a non-Christian religion -- with doctrines that pretty much expressly justify violence -- might have on its followers. Anyway, it is obvious we aren't going to agree on this one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yet the media is saying that this wasn't a terrorist incident. I'm somewhat sympathetic to some of his complaints (but not all) but regardless, he killed himself in order to make a political statement and he hoped to take some IRS employees with him.

How is this NOT terrorism?

This is exactly my point above. It won't be described as terrorism because the guy's name is "Joe" and many in the US will be sympathetic to his complaints.

It's not terrrorism. He is not part of a movement designed to change government behavior. He's a suicidal nut job. And the nutj ob was pro-Obama care, so don't try to tie him to the tea party movement.

Seriously. You need to read his manifesto. He said that violence of the kind he was engaging in was the only way to change things. He had a particular world view and he framed his actions in terms of changing government behavior. That makes him a terrorist in my book. Now I am sympathetic to some of his views (e.g., big banks got let off easily while the little guy gets screwed). So what? He still engaged in terrorism.

Now if you want to put a qualifier before that term such as an organized terrorist group -- okay, I suspect he did not belong to an organized terrorist group -- but to say this broadly wasn't terrorism when it had a political goal and was aimed at a government institution -- you're wrong.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yet the media is saying that this wasn't a terrorist incident. I'm somewhat sympathetic to some of his complaints (but not all) but regardless, he killed himself in order to make a political statement and he hoped to take some IRS employees with him.

How is this NOT terrorism?

This is exactly my point above. It won't be described as terrorism because the guy's name is "Joe" and many in the US will be sympathetic to his complaints.

It's not terrrorism. He is not part of a movement designed to change government behavior. He's a suicidal nut job. And the nutj ob was pro-Obama care, so don't try to tie him to the tea party movement.

Funny you should say that. The direct quote from this story: "Stack's writings suggest he was part of a loosely organized movement that stretches back to at least the 1950s. " http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35507079/ns/business-personal_finance/

Here is how Fox News is reporting the reaction from various people involved in the tax protest movement: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,586904,00.html So it appears that there is a movement that includes plenty of people willing to claim him or at least condone him.

[Anonymous]

The mere existence of this thread shows the power of the Tea Party Movement ... and fear.

News flash - the movement does not have representative leaders. This is precisely what makes it so scary to both political parties.

http://www.realclearmarkets.com/articles/2010/02/22/pin_the_bogeyman_on_the_tea_party_98353.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The mere existence of this thread shows the power of the Tea Party Movement ... and fear.

News flash - the movement does not have representative leaders. This is precisely what makes it so scary to both political parties.

http://www.realclearmarkets.com/articles/2010/02/22/pin_the_bogeyman_on_the_tea_party_98353.html

Yes, we know what a political movement is. I know it seems all shiny and new to conservatives, but this kind of thing has been going on for pretty much our entire history -- abolition, women's suffrage, anti-war, labor, civil rights, disabled rights, gay rights -- and it is well known that both the key strength and weakness of a movement is its lack of a formal leadership or platform. Managing that tension is the biggest challenge for any movement.

[Anonymous]

How come no one in this entire thread mentioned that regardless of whether or not this Stack asshole is a terrorist, he is a murderer, plain and simple. He murdered Vernon Hunter, an upstanding citizen, a man who was a long-time civil servant and Vietnam veteran. Do the Tea party members who praise Stack condone murder?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How come no one in this entire thread mentioned that regardless of whether or not this Stack asshole is a terrorist, he is a murderer, plain and simple. He murdered Vernon Hunter, an upstanding citizen, a man who was a long-time civil servant and Vietnam veteran. Do the Tea party members who praise Stack condone murder?

Quite the rhetorical question! I don't recall any tea party members on this thread praising Stack. Did I misread? Of course Stack is a murderer. That does not make Tea Party supporters murderers any more than Rudolph makes Catholics murderers.